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RE: When? - 2/3/2012 6:59:42 PM   
gridley

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Steve, sorry to come up with the dreaded question but, after so many months from a predicted date, I cannot see the end close.


I'll go out on a limb here and say before July 1 of this year. As to what will be included in the first release - I will not comment on that at this time.


I know this isn't written in stone, anything can happen, etc...But Holy Smokes!!!

And to just throw it out there so non-chalantly...very cool




(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 2521
RE: When? - 2/3/2012 7:05:17 PM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gridley


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Steve, sorry to come up with the dreaded question but, after so many months from a predicted date, I cannot see the end close.


I'll go out on a limb here and say before July 1 of this year. As to what will be included in the first release - I will not comment on that at this time.


I know this isn't written in stone, anything can happen, etc...But Holy Smokes!!!

And to just throw it out there so non-chalantly...very cool





Hmmm. Let's wait and see. After seeing the AAR and looking at the monthly reports, I came to the conclusion that December was probably a good estimation... July: it looks very, very soon. But if Steve sees that things are finally coming to an end, things might speed up, with the horse smelling the stables...

_____________________________

Peter

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RE: When? - 2/3/2012 7:13:16 PM   
HansHafen

 

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Wow, by July 2012? I think we are looking at a nod to reality here from Mr. Rowland. Looks like they will release a non AI version after all. Interesting.

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Post #: 2523
RE: When? - 2/3/2012 8:49:53 PM   
ioticus

 

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So does that mean the AI is finished or there won't be an AI?  Because every time I read the report it says "nothing new" for AI.

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RE: When? - 2/3/2012 9:14:22 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ioticus

So does that mean the AI is finished or there won't be an AI?  Because every time I read the report it says "nothing new" for AI.


quote:

As to what will be included in the first release - I will not comment on that at this time.



No it means Steve cannot say at the moment.


Edit: apologies if that sounded snotty - it wasn't meant to.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 2/3/2012 9:26:37 PM >


_____________________________

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RE: When? - 2/3/2012 10:06:02 PM   
Joseignacio


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Steve, sorry to come up with the dreaded question but, after so many months from a predicted date, I cannot see the end close.

I know you wont give a date. Could you speak about a certain year as a prospective date?

I am pretty shy to ask this, and I totally understand if you are still not prone to do so. Just I was wondering, in order to check the advances of the game as frequently or less frequently (if it's going to last for several yers still).

Glad to hear your health improves, I hope Red Prince is also 100% recovered.


I'll go out on a limb here and say before July 1 of this year. As to what will be included in the first release - I will not comment on that at this time.



(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 2526
RE: When? - 2/3/2012 10:21:27 PM   
Joseignacio


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ioticus

So does that mean the AI is finished or there won't be an AI?  Because every time I read the report it says "nothing new" for AI.



Obviously everyone can extract his own conclusions. Steve spoke much more than I thought, if he doesn't want to speak more, we should respect this.

I imagine that, considering that in the last report there is no advance on AI, and he says he will not speak of what it consists of (it shows that sth. should be left from original plans) , we can assume in a relevant percentage of probability that there may be no AI in this first release.

Bo, nice to read you againl. By now I am playing Total War, HoI3, Rise of Prussia, Birth of America, ... and TripleA . As well as reading (and working and learning languages, ...). :)

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RE: When? - 2/3/2012 11:52:22 PM   
bo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio


quote:

ORIGINAL: ioticus

So does that mean the AI is finished or there won't be an AI?  Because every time I read the report it says "nothing new" for AI.



Obviously everyone can extract his own conclusions. Steve spoke much more than I thought, if he doesn't want to speak more, we should respect this.

I imagine that, considering that in the last report there is no advance on AI, and he says he will not speak of what it consists of (it shows that sth. should be left from original plans) , we can assume in a relevant percentage of probability that there may be no AI in this first release.

Bo, nice to read you againl. By now I am playing Total War, HoI3, Rise of Prussia, Birth of America, ... and TripleA . As well as reading (and working and learning languages, ...). :)

What not playing El Cid I do hope there is some kind of an AI, good not so good soso, don't care, I need it for a training tool if not so be it.

Bo

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 2528
RE: When? - 2/4/2012 11:16:04 AM   
Joseignacio


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Is there a video game namedl El Cid? I guess you'r referring to a campaign of Age of COnquerors.

El Cid was a real person, a hero who was a nobleman and the Champion of the King of Castile. He humiliated his brother when he was going to be crowned, by making him swear in a church on the Bible the new king he had nothing to do in the murder of his brother, whom El Cid revered.

The new king never forgave him having put him in the disjunctive of condemn his soul (like he did) or die, and banned him and any followers from his kingdom. El Cid (pronounced El Sid in old spanish, after his arab nickname) was named like that by the arab enemies and sometimes allies of him (Al Sidi or The Lord).

He became kind of a mercenary force, unbalancing the previous delicate balance between the christian kingdoms and the muslims and their allies and vassals, of the same or different religion.

He allied the Emir of Zaragoza against the Sultan (Caliplh?) of Cordoba and conquered Valencia for himself, he couldn't defend it though, against a kind of Yihad surged in Northern Africa Cordoba Caliphate land,s and offered to the king of Castile, but the king preferred not to get the city- state and provinces and have El Cid back as a vassal, that was his hatred, even decades afterwards (also he might want to avoid the harder of the Yihad).

About this extraordinary hero and General (our own Vlad Tepes, the real hero, not the TV Dracula), the people used to say "O God what a good vassal, if only he had a good Lord..."

Ooops, sorry about the digression.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 2/4/2012 11:25:26 AM >

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Post #: 2529
RE: When? - 2/4/2012 11:22:25 AM   
Joseignacio


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Delete, please, duplicated.

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RE: When? - 2/4/2012 1:50:26 PM   
Centuur


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MWIF is under development a very, very long time, due to the difficulties regarding the coding of the rules (which is understandable if you only look at the forums discussing the rules. WiF itself isn't an easy game, rulewise...) If we look at the AAR it looks like those rules are pretty well put into code. If bugs on the playtesting are really going down fast, this then means the point is near where things like PBeM and Netplay are being made. Since Steve is doing the Netplay now, it sure is looking that development is in this phase now. After that, the AI remains to be coded followed by the last optional rules...
No AI in the first release is of course going to be a disappointment for a lot of potential customers. However: a lot of people are waiting for MWIF to go on the market because of lack of playing space and lack of players availability for the board game itself too. A lot of people simply don't have a room to spare for a game which takes years to play if you can only play it one day of the week.
So going to put it unto the market without the AI, but with the promise that the AI will be build and patched to the buyers might be a wise decision. However that also puts pressure on Steve, since he has to build the AI soon.
Well: we wait for the official comments and messages which will appear at the right time.
For now: I wish Steve good luck, since it looks like he has committed himself now...


< Message edited by Centuur -- 2/4/2012 1:51:20 PM >


_____________________________

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Post #: 2531
RE: When? - 2/4/2012 2:32:21 PM   
bo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Is there a video game namedl El Cid? I guess you'r referring to a campaign of Age of COnquerors.

El Cid was a real person, a hero who was a nobleman and the Champion of the King of Castile. He humiliated his brother when he was going to be crowned, by making him swear in a church on the Bible the new king he had nothing to do in the murder of his brother, whom El Cid revered.

The new king never forgave him having put him in the disjunctive of condemn his soul (like he did) or die, and banned him and any followers from his kingdom. El Cid (pronounced El Sid in old spanish, after his arab nickname) was named like that by the arab enemies and sometimes allies of him (Al Sidi or The Lord).

He became kind of a mercenary force, unbalancing the previous delicate balance between the christian kingdoms and the muslims and their allies and vassals, of the same or different religion.

He allied the Emir of Zaragoza against the Sultan (Caliplh?) of Cordoba and conquered Valencia for himself, he couldn't defend it though, against a kind of Yihad surged in Northern Africa Cordoba Caliphate land,s and offered to the king of Castile, but the king preferred not to get the city- state and provinces and have El Cid back as a vassal, that was his hatred, even decades afterwards (also he might want to avoid the harder of the Yihad).

About this extraordinary hero and General (our own Vlad Tepes, the real hero, not the TV Dracula), the people used to say "O God what a good vassal, if only he had a good Lord..."

Ooops, sorry about the digression.

I apoligize Jose, a little bit of stupid south philadelphia humor, I thought El Cid's real name was Charlton Heston I know of no game with El Cid in it. Are we going to have an AI or not?

Bo

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 2532
RE: When? - 2/4/2012 2:40:29 PM   
Joseignacio


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No need to apologize. 'Bout AI, we`ll see, Steven will say when he is ready to say it.

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Post #: 2533
RE: When? - 2/5/2012 12:30:19 PM   
parusski


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quote:

I'll go out on a limb here and say before July 1 of this year. As to what will be included in the first release - I will not comment on that at this time.


I was expecting to wait another 5 years. It looks to be a great summer.

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

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Post #: 2534
RE: When? - 2/5/2012 8:38:35 PM   
petracelli

 

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Steve

This is great news a d hope all your hard work is moving close to fruition!

Cheers

Phil

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Post #: 2535
RE: When? - 2/6/2012 8:25:59 AM   
norvandave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

So going to put it unto the market without the AI, but with the promise that the AI will be build and patched to the buyers might be a wise decision. However that also puts pressure on Steve, since he has to build the AI soon.



This is a big game and Steve has done an amazing job. I like many others, am just waiting to buy this soon to be masterpiece. I must say however that I need a decent AI. I just don't have very much time and this game looks like a sizeable time committment and a bit of a learning curve.

Reading between the lines it looks like Steve is intending to release the WiF without an AI, at least to start. There has been very little news of AI testing or performance. Following the release, Steve will likely find many more reported bugs that he will need to work on for patches. Makes me wonder about when the AI could be completed.

Here's hoping for a great AI. I will be more than happy to purchase even though it may be $$$.

Thank you Steve. Hopefully 2012 is the year.

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 2536
RE: When? - 2/6/2012 6:40:17 PM   
micheljq


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Do not get to much excited, we are never sure until a game is really released.  There can be many delays still.

< Message edited by micheljq -- 2/7/2012 3:04:00 PM >


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RE: When? - 2/8/2012 4:50:02 PM   
Klydon


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I thought they might be getting closer with the start of the AAR's. (Usually a good sign as the game is far enough along to be somewhat "useable"). I didn't imagine it would be this soon, but I have to also assume no AI on the initial release. While disappointed, I totally understand as the game has been in development for so long, there has to be a desire to get some revenue coming in somehow for all this work. I know at one point, Steve mentioned an estimate of 5000 hours for the AI. My guess is it might take longer than that although how much is done already, we don't really know. We do know a lot of the scripts and decision trees from a strategy standpoint have been in progress, so that does help. My best guess is they will release this summer if they can and then it would probably be at least another year for an "AI expansion" that may also include some additional stuff that is also being left out of the initial release.

Either way, certainly a positive step forward at this point.

(in reply to micheljq)
Post #: 2538
RE: When? - 2/8/2012 10:07:18 PM   
bo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

I thought they might be getting closer with the start of the AAR's. (Usually a good sign as the game is far enough along to be somewhat "useable"). I didn't imagine it would be this soon, but I have to also assume no AI on the initial release. While disappointed, I totally understand as the game has been in development for so long, there has to be a desire to get some revenue coming in somehow for all this work. I know at one point, Steve mentioned an estimate of 5000 hours for the AI. My guess is it might take longer than that although how much is done already, we don't really know. We do know a lot of the scripts and decision trees from a strategy standpoint have been in progress, so that does help. My best guess is they will release this summer if they can and then it would probably be at least another year for an "AI expansion" that may also include some additional stuff that is also being left out of the initial release.

Either way, certainly a positive step forward at this point.

Forgive me for this as I do not want to get into any argument again about this AI thing.
I will buy the game AI or no AI, I want to be very clear about that. To all the board game players no AI will not matter to you I assume, not sure of that. I believe with my heart and soul that the majority of wargamers in the open market will not buy this game without a decent AI. I for one do not like pbem. And net play I am not sure about that either. There is nothing better than to play against a human opponet. I play cod2 all the time on line. The cod2 AI is not bad for a computer game but I prefer going up against very good players even if I dont do well. Steve has not said one way or the other about an AI. I did not read that 5000 hours thing, must have missed it. To my knowledge every top selling war game in the last 10 years had an AI. Even if the AI is poor I dont care at least I will learn something from it. There is a big following of board gamers but really not enough to make money for Matrix. There is a vast world of wargamers out there and if no AI I guarantee you they will not buy. I want to play when I want to play not when its convenient or not convenient for someone else. As I said before I have ADG'S WIF, its just ok and without an AI which it does not have I wish I had not bought it. My only experience with pbem was not good as it was all screwed up, why should I expect anything better now, please Steve not any kind of dig on you, I just don't have any confidence left with anybody. I tried to stay away from posting but this no AI thing has upset me, I thought it was a nobrainer situation. Guess not huh! These are my feelings right or wrong, just can't help being this way.

Bo

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Post #: 2539
RE: When? - 2/9/2012 5:03:14 AM   
NeverMan

 

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The question isn't "When?" it's "If?"

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RE: When? - 2/9/2012 8:03:05 AM   
Joseignacio


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

I thought they might be getting closer with the start of the AAR's. (Usually a good sign as the game is far enough along to be somewhat "useable"). I didn't imagine it would be this soon, but I have to also assume no AI on the initial release. While disappointed, I totally understand as the game has been in development for so long, there has to be a desire to get some revenue coming in somehow for all this work. I know at one point, Steve mentioned an estimate of 5000 hours for the AI. My guess is it might take longer than that although how much is done already, we don't really know. We do know a lot of the scripts and decision trees from a strategy standpoint have been in progress, so that does help. My best guess is they will release this summer if they can and then it would probably be at least another year for an "AI expansion" that may also include some additional stuff that is also being left out of the initial release.

Either way, certainly a positive step forward at this point.

Forgive me for this as I do not want to get into any argument again about this AI thing.
I will buy the game AI or no AI, I want to be very clear about that. To all the board game players no AI will not matter to you I assume, not sure of that. I believe with my heart and soul that the majority of wargamers in the open market will not buy this game without a decent AI. I for one do not like pbem. And net play I am not sure about that either. There is nothing better than to play against a human opponet. I play cod2 all the time on line. The cod2 AI is not bad for a computer game but I prefer going up against very good players even if I dont do well. Steve has not said one way or the other about an AI. I did not read that 5000 hours thing, must have missed it. To my knowledge every top selling war game in the last 10 years had an AI. Even if the AI is poor I dont care at least I will learn something from it. There is a big following of board gamers but really not enough to make money for Matrix. There is a vast world of wargamers out there and if no AI I guarantee you they will not buy. I want to play when I want to play not when its convenient or not convenient for someone else. As I said before I have ADG'S WIF, its just ok and without an AI which it does not have I wish I had not bought it. My only experience with pbem was not good as it was all screwed up, why should I expect anything better now, please Steve not any kind of dig on you, I just don't have any confidence left with anybody. I tried to stay away from posting but this no AI thing has upset me, I thought it was a nobrainer situation. Guess not huh! These are my feelings right or wrong, just can't help being this way.

Bo


Bo, calm down, please. :)

Steve didn't say AI yes or AI no by now, we are just speculating.

But what I am pretty sure of (as much as I can be, through deduction) is that if the game comes out wothout an AI, there will be one in a future release.

I am a player who likes playing agaisnt humans the most but has faced competent AI (in their ambits) and I like not to have to depend on my friends to have a free while at the same time as me. All the same, I am not fan of PBEM, and much less in this case, there are too many steps every turn to have a "fluent" PBEM.

I believe there will be an AI when Steven is ready, and meanwhile, while it's true that most gamers will not buy it, WIF players will, and will have a release that will allow finally not having to drive XXX miles to play or dedicate a fixed date every week for playing, it will improve greatly wif gaming.

Of course, the grand distribution needs to be with AI (in the future, if we are guessing right).

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RE: When? - 2/9/2012 4:04:23 PM   
bo

 

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Calm down, OUCH! I thought those comments were pretty mild at least for me. Still on my meds so I am under control. When all else fails me I try to use common sense, I read Thomas Paines pamphlet on common sense and it is very interesting. You put all your likes and dislikes aside as best you can and try to come up with a viable solution which is very hard to do. Meaning this game that Steve is doing is not just for WIF board gamers which would be a terrible mistake, but for all of us who know very little about this game except for the forums where I have learned a great deal of information about WIF. Jose you are correct about PBEM, it sounds like a nightmare sending every move back and forth when you can, and netplay would also be very hard to work out unless you are in the same time zone and have nothing else to do, but beings I have never used net play I know little about it. So what does that leave us? Nuff said,
Common sense gentlemen, give me AI or give me death I think some famous American colonist said that not sure he said AI but what the heck I was never that good on history anyway.

Bo

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Post #: 2542
RE: When? - 2/9/2012 4:34:14 PM   
Joseignacio


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Bo, there is no doubt (IMO) that the game needs an AI if it is supposed to be widely distributed.

But there is a number of players of WIF many or most of who would gladly pay to have a system to enforce the rules without having to check the manual each step. I take you have not played wif over a table, but those of us who have, know that from a 5 to a 50% of the time (depending of the experience) of the time is a frustrating navigation through confusing rules that sometimes overlap each other, interprete them and convinve the opposer who may have a different opinion. This will be instantly solved.

As for the PBEM it's true it's not very adaptable to this game (IMO again), but the Netplay is different. I have a group of friends here in Madrid who play WIF, I don't play WIF here because I some of them are not very honest players and I prefer not to be in the group than trying to ban somebody from it. Also, some of them live rather far... As you can see, the enforce of the rules would solve the first problem, while Netplay would solve the distance problem. Since there is no time lost in visits, we could all play some hours most days if we had a game on.

Also, in Europe many people are in the same time zone (I believe, artificially alterated) as you can see here



so We could play in the same time zone with most of the players in Europe and with only one hour of delay for the rest except Russia.

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Post #: 2543
RE: When? - 2/9/2012 5:29:48 PM   
bo

 

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Jose I have never played the board game and my deepest respect to those who do. Talk about a nightmare all those pieces and rules whew. Never thought about using MWIF to enforce the rules and I don't know why because I use it in ADG's WIF and it is a big help.
Cheating is something I have a problem with in anything. In Cod2 we have all kinds of cheating, seeing thru walls and bushes, aimbot, on and on. Score is all that matters to some players. The cheaters must be German, Polish, English players, Italians etc. because nobody in Spain would cheat not with the Spanish Inquisition still around

Bo

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Post #: 2544
RE: When? - 2/10/2012 12:07:36 AM   
HansHafen

 

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Wow, Bo, I encourage you to play the boardgame in all of its glory, hung up on a wall with all the charts hanging to the side and the chits on the map! Wooohooo, beautiful I tell you. And great fun. I remember being like 20 years old or something like it and getting up on a Satuday at 6am to pick up a friend and be at the location to play WIF from like 7am to 2am that night! It was freaking amazing and more fun than men should ever have together! :)

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RE: When? - 2/10/2012 12:13:52 AM   
Joseignacio


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Bo, not only cheaters but also rules misunderstood with disparity of opinion. It's inversely proportional to the level of knowledge/experience of the players. And not only this, the rules are messy, they have been patched so many times that they are or look sometimes contradictory. Even experienced players need sometimes to ask Harry because of this, hence the Clarifications of the rules.

Hans, you are right, it's more fun than men should have ever together. Heterosexual men, of course, the others have some other funny activities too...

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RE: When? - 2/11/2012 8:10:49 PM   
SewerStarFish


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As a strong proponent of the "must have an AI", I certainly understand if Matrix elects to sell the first version without one. And then offer or provide the AI later. That sort of thing is a business decision; making games is a for profit endeavour. But it should be made exceedingly clear before release what is included and if the later AI will be free or sold as an expansion or even be attempted at all.

I agree with Jose that the MWiF will resolve many issues of competeing rules opinions. Heck even when I know a rule, I often simply forget to apply it.

_____________________________

Why choose the lesser evil: Vote Cthulhu.

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RE: When? - 2/11/2012 9:48:52 PM   
bo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SewerStarFish

As a strong proponent of the "must have an AI", I certainly understand if Matrix elects to sell the first version without one. And then offer or provide the AI later. That sort of thing is a business decision; making games is a for profit endeavour. But it should be made exceedingly clear before release what is included and if the later AI will be free or sold as an expansion or even be attempted at all.

I agree with Jose that the MWiF will resolve many issues of competeing rules opinions. Heck even when I know a rule, I often simply forget to apply it.

I respect your opinion Sewer and if these posts go any farther I know it will get nasty again if certain posters who will remain nameless get back on with their frustration with Steve and the Matrix thing. I cannot believe that Matrix will allow this game to come out without an AI, it is not any kind of trolling or nastiness none of that, but as a business company trying to make a profit I would be stunned at no AI with that said I will repeat I will buy it AI or no AI. But the non-dedicated WIF people will not and there is many thousands of them, IMHO!

Bo

< Message edited by bo -- 2/11/2012 11:07:49 PM >

(in reply to SewerStarFish)
Post #: 2548
RE: When? - 2/11/2012 10:47:22 PM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 2816
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline
I have never played WiF ftf or the old computer version. However I have played DG's computer coversion of SPI's WiE that does not have an AI. I was very pleased (and surprised) at how well it worked playing both sides at the same time. Why? Just like WiF, WiE is a very complex game that is hard to keep track of everything that is happening on a single side you are playing much less both sides. It is possible to 'surprise yoursef' lol.

So I would suggest, that before everyone condems the decision of not having an AI (which we do not know for sure anyway), is to try a game that does not have one and play both sides. That will give you a much better perspective on realasing earlier without an AI (which I truely support btw) or delaying even longer to get the AI in.

(in reply to bo)
Post #: 2549
RE: When? - 2/11/2012 11:14:30 PM   
bo

 

Posts: 4182
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

I have never played WiF ftf or the old computer version. However I have played DG's computer coversion of SPI's WiE that does not have an AI. I was very pleased (and surprised) at how well it worked playing both sides at the same time. Why? Just like WiF, WiE is a very complex game that is hard to keep track of everything that is happening on a single side you are playing much less both sides. It is possible to 'surprise yoursef' lol.

So I would suggest, that before everyone condems the decision of not having an AI (which we do not know for sure anyway), is to try a game that does not have one and play both sides. That will give you a much better perspective on realasing earlier without an AI (which I truely support btw) or delaying even longer to get the AI in.


I agree Num with you 100% as I have adg's wif and I have learned a lot from it [no AI] and with the rules and the roll of the dice anything can happen. But after awhile it starts to get a little stale, but that is just me probably. I believe that I would be helpless against most of the board game players here and before I could hope to challenge them I would need a lot of practice and one solution would be an AI good, bad or soso.

Bo

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 2550
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