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RE: When? - 1/12/2010 4:31:35 PM   
bo

 

Posts: 2735
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor

Some times the best we can do is wait and prepare.





Good lord even Mac is taking Crusssdaddy's calming pill PLEASE send me one now
Crusssdaddy I need it to calm me down too.

Bo

(in reply to macgregor)
Post #: 1711
RE: When? - 1/13/2010 6:16:56 PM   
Jeff Gilbert

 

Posts: 67
Joined: 10/2/2005
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Back after a year + absense from seeing how things are going.
Great to see progress has continued to move forward.
I think I'll spned the next few hours reading up on MWiF ...


_____________________________

Jeff Gilbert
US Army [Ret]
Palm Harbor, Florida, USA

(in reply to bo)
Post #: 1712
RE: When? - 1/13/2010 7:27:26 PM   
macgregor


Posts: 968
Joined: 2/10/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bo
Good lord even Mac is taking Crusssdaddy's calming pill PLEASE send me one now
Crusssdaddy I need it to calm me down too.

Bo

I wonder if I used a big enough picture?

I had my say. The AI, the PBEM, and a whole lot of unit detail I can't imagine(I hope it includes photos/plate drawings) are taking a front-seat to netplay. No amount of protest will affect that. Steve is aware of our concerns however.

Steve has really done a lot to accommodate decision-making. I think the final product will move surprisingly fast -much faster than the boardgame. He has enlisted help too. With every man working hard and making progress ...one of these estimates will eventually hit the mark.

(in reply to bo)
Post #: 1713
RE: When? - 1/14/2010 12:52:58 AM   
bo

 

Posts: 2735
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor


quote:

ORIGINAL: bo
Good lord even Mac is taking Crusssdaddy's calming pill PLEASE send me one now
Crusssdaddy I need it to calm me down too.

Bo

I wonder if I used a big enough picture?

I had my say. The AI, the PBEM, and a whole lot of unit detail I can't imagine(I hope it includes photos/plate drawings) are taking a front-seat to netplay. No amount of protest will affect that. Steve is aware of our concerns however.

Steve has really done a lot to accommodate decision-making. I think the final product will move surprisingly fast -much faster than the boardgame. He has enlisted help too. With every man working hard and making progress ...one of these estimates will eventually hit the mark.

Right on Mac, I had posted before I just started playing pbem three weeks ago and I am enjoying it even though I would rather play the AI because I am getting torn to shreds by a nasty human. Maybe you would be so kind as to play me by pbem when the game comes to fruitation and help me learn to set up games such as PBEM and net play.

Bo

(in reply to macgregor)
Post #: 1714
RE: When? - 1/14/2010 3:30:23 AM   
michaelbaldur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor
I think the final product will move surprisingly fast -much faster than the boardgame.


the game moves fast. more or less as fast as you can play it. and when you remove rule discussions and odds calculation. it is much faster ....


it is worth waiting fore ....


< Message edited by michaelbaldur -- 1/14/2010 3:31:13 AM >


_____________________________

Peyton manning is a God and the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

(in reply to macgregor)
Post #: 1715
RE: When? - 1/14/2010 8:02:46 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor
I think the final product will move surprisingly fast -much faster than the boardgame.


the game moves fast. more or less as fast as you can play it. and when you remove rule discussions and odds calculation. it is much faster ....


it is worth waiting fore ....


Yes.

I believe the only slow places are going to be figuring out what land and naval moves you want to make.

The air missions are much simpler than when playing over-the-board because the computer identifies all the bombers and fighters that can fly at each point in the sequence of play. There is no need to check all the different stacks on the map - looking for air units that can still move.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to michaelbaldur)
Post #: 1716
RE: When? - 1/14/2010 9:10:46 AM   
wif_o_matic

 

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Hello Steve,

My first post in the forum. I've been reading it for a long time. It looks like you can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Keep up the good work. I'd say I'm rooting for you, but in Australia that phrase has connotations you'd rather not think about.

Happy bug hunting

Ben

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1717
RE: When? - 1/14/2010 11:41:28 AM   
Hoetzendorf

 

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I´ve also been following the developement for some time now (a few years) and just wanted to say keep up the good work, Steve + volunteers.

(in reply to wif_o_matic)
Post #: 1718
RE: When? - 1/14/2010 2:19:18 PM   
abj9562


Posts: 787
Joined: 7/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor
I think the final product will move surprisingly fast -much faster than the boardgame.


the game moves fast. more or less as fast as you can play it. and when you remove rule discussions and odds calculation. it is much faster ....


it is worth waiting fore ....


Yes.

I believe the only slow places are going to be figuring out what land and naval moves you want to make.

The air missions are much simpler than when playing over-the-board because the computer identifies all the bombers and fighters that can fly at each point in the sequence of play. There is no need to check all the different stacks on the map - looking for air units that can still move.


Wow sounds great.

Obviously the speed will slow by some amount when the AI is coded in. However what type of delay can we expect short, moderate, lengthy?


_____________________________

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(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1719
RE: When? - 1/14/2010 6:22:56 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor
I think the final product will move surprisingly fast -much faster than the boardgame.


the game moves fast. more or less as fast as you can play it. and when you remove rule discussions and odds calculation. it is much faster ....


it is worth waiting fore ....


Yes.

I believe the only slow places are going to be figuring out what land and naval moves you want to make.

The air missions are much simpler than when playing over-the-board because the computer identifies all the bombers and fighters that can fly at each point in the sequence of play. There is no need to check all the different stacks on the map - looking for air units that can still move.


Wow sounds great.

Obviously the speed will slow by some amount when the AI is coded in. However what type of delay can we expect short, moderate, lengthy?


I do not expect much delay with the AI, especailly if you are running on a dual or quad processor. Most of the AIO decision making will be done concurrently with the human player making his decisions. The coding mechanism is to use a separate thread for the AIO processing. When you get right down to it, WIF is a long series of decisions with the deciding side changing frequently. So, most of the time the AIO needs only to make a only a single decision (e.g., whether to fly ground strikes and if so by which units where). While the defender/human is deciding about interceptors, the AIO is deciding about intercepting the interceptors. The results of the ground strike will take some time for the human to view and absorb. And the AIO will be figuring out what to do next while the human exults or groans about the ground strikes.

The AIO will make a global assessment at the start of each impulse and turn but even that will exploit previous analyses from the impulse/turn before - that is, it won't be "from scratch".

We'll see how it goes in practice, but I already know how enormous the amount of processing is just to display all the units on the map and to calculate all the possible moves for a group of naval units when they are picked up (typically a group of naval units can move to almost 100 locations). Those calculations happen in an eye blink. The AIO calcualtions shouldn't be much greater since there is no need to draw anything on the map - except the final moves of the units.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to abj9562)
Post #: 1720
RE: When? - 1/18/2010 8:20:31 PM   
lordzyplon

 

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Hello Steve,

I've been following this game's progress for several years now (goodness, check my join date any my last post date!), and I think you've done a tremendous job! While part of me wants to buy the game as it is now, and play (finally!) with friends spread out over the country, I know that there's nothing worse than releasing an unpolished product. As you've said too many times before, release it when it's done, and not a moment before.

Thanks for your efforts, and I bid you good hunting for those bugs!

(in reply to FaneFlugt.DK)
Post #: 1721
RE: When? - 1/19/2010 12:56:26 AM   
kwypto77

 

Posts: 4
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Been keeping up with the progress. It seems that you guys are in the final stages of getting to enjoy the fruits of your labor. Congrats and thanks for your effort.

(in reply to bo)
Post #: 1722
RE: When? - 1/23/2010 3:58:09 PM   
CardOldSport

 

Posts: 2
Joined: 10/31/2009
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Been following this for a few years but first posting.

I've been disappointed wit the delays like everyone else, but want a working product later instead of a bunch of headaches sooner.

I will buy this game whenever it's finished. Prefer this year but if it takes longer, so be it.

I am also in my sixties, so don't know how long I can wait..


(in reply to kwypto77)
Post #: 1723
RE: When? - 1/23/2010 6:39:08 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 18325
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CardOldSport

Been following this for a few years but first posting.

I've been disappointed wit the delays like everyone else, but want a working product later instead of a bunch of headaches sooner.

I will buy this game whenever it's finished. Prefer this year but if it takes longer, so be it.

I am also in my sixties, so don't know how long I can wait..



I am 62 but the doctor last week said all my test results came back fine. It almost goes without saying that he doctor told me to eat less/healthier and exercise more, but I sometimes wonder if they tell Lance Armstrong that to.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to CardOldSport)
Post #: 1724
RE: When? - 1/23/2010 6:41:22 PM   
lomyrin


Posts: 3095
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From: San Diego
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At 74 now, I still expect to play the finished and completed game for hopefully a long time

Lars

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1725
RE: When? - 1/23/2010 9:09:05 PM   
SewerStarFish


Posts: 303
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From: Reading, Pa. USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
It almost goes without saying that he doctor told me to eat less/healthier and exercise more


Oh one of those fad diets.


_____________________________

Why choose the lesser evil: Vote Cthulhu.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1726
RE: When? - 1/24/2010 4:33:08 AM   
bfontes


Posts: 9
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From: Cranston, RI
Status: offline
I see mention of a game called Hearts of Iron III.  Who has played it?  Is it a cool game?

(in reply to SewerStarFish)
Post #: 1727
RE: When? - 1/24/2010 6:16:46 AM   
vonpaul


Posts: 167
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From: Sydney, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bfontes

I see mention of a game called Hearts of Iron III.  Who has played it?  Is it a cool game?


it is broken (check their forums for info on this), maybe when 1.4 is release in February. Until it is fixed a waste of money.

(in reply to bfontes)
Post #: 1728
RE: When? - 1/24/2010 6:48:15 AM   
BallyJ

 

Posts: 142
Joined: 5/25/2008
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Mine usually tells me to stop drinking. Then doubles my medication??
LOL
Keep working on the game best wishes


[/quote]
I am 62 but the doctor last week said all my test results came back fine. It almost goes without saying that he doctor told me to eat less/healthier and exercise more, but I sometimes wonder if they tell Lance Armstrong that to.
[/quote]

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1729
RE: When? - 1/24/2010 6:21:02 PM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 1826
Joined: 2/13/2004
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I have played it from the first release and find it to be a great game. The best out there as far as I am concerned. A new patch will be released next month that should make it even better. I have been playing almost nothing else since I got it. What makes it even more interesting is that I have always hated the HoI series until now. There are many people like me that have been playing the game and enjoying it greatly. It is NOT broken and definately playable so I would suggest to try the demo and then decide if you want it or not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vonpaul


quote:

ORIGINAL: bfontes

I see mention of a game called Hearts of Iron III.  Who has played it?  Is it a cool game?


it is broken (check their forums for info on this), maybe when 1.4 is release in February. Until it is fixed a waste of money.


(in reply to vonpaul)
Post #: 1730
RE: When? - 1/24/2010 7:15:04 PM   
Numdydar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Crusss:

If you have bothered to go back through this thread to cut and paste hoped-for release dates of MWiF, then you might also have read the various explanations as to why the development programme implemented by Matrix is appropriate for this game (among other reasons, its niche-market status). If you disagree, perhaps you can explain to us how WiF can appeal to a large enough market to justify the expense of a team of developers and support personnel and the recruitment of dozens/hundreds of testers to get it out the door more quickly?

Since you are the one making the claim that the rights to WiF need to be "turned around and shopped to companies actually interested in completing and releasing the game" it is up to you to demonstrate that such companies exist. You are also the one claiming that "CWiF [...] is being held hostage by Matrix" so it is your responsibility to provide evidence that this is true. The thousands of forum posts here show that Steve and the various contributing volunteers have been working steadily at bringing the game to completion, so I am not certain how you can justify the 'hostage' comment.

With regards to your comment: "After seven years, the current product is functionally indistinguishable from the old beta I play every week - limited scenarios and no AI." Once again, this is your claim. It is up to you to prove you are right. It is not up to current beta testers to prove you wrong.

It is all well and good to complain about delays in the release of the game, but unless the people doing so are able to articulate superior alternatives to the current manner in which MWiF is being developed, then the developers and us 'fanboys' have no reason to do anything but dismiss it as bellyaching. Personally speaking, I don't have anything against bellyaching, but unless there is more than just 'this game is taking too long to come out!' behind it then why should I, or anyone else, take it seriously?

And finally, CrusssDaddy, you appear to be mis-applying the ad hominem fallacy. Since you do not appear to have come forward with any "content" to discuss, it is hard to see how anyone who has disparaged you is distracting the rest of us from your arguments via their insults.


My evidence is this thread, and a development process that has dragged on for seven years, with multiple missed deadlines and unmet release expectations, and the latest project update showing no light at the end of the tunnel. That speaks to me of a broken and failed process. Matrix has devoted completely insufficient resources to this product, Shannon is incapable of doing this by himself, and a gang of ad hoc volunteers is no substitute for a genuine development team.

With the abject failure of HOI3, and legions of pissed off Paradox customers looking for a strategic WWII fix, there is a unique opportunity for WiF to flourish. But that's not going to happen with it in the hands of a disinterested publisher and an overwhelmed developer.



I am not sure where you get your information about HoI3 but I can attest that it is a)either very outdated or b) you have not played it yourself. I have owned HoI3 since it came out and can personally attest that

1. it is NOT a failure
2. There are NOT Legions of pissed off Paradox customers
3. The game is successful, playable, and fun (at least for me).

You seem to have a tendency to state facts without any resonable effort to back them up. As far as I am concerned, WiF could take another two years to be completed if it would make the game better on release. I actually applaud Matrix games for pulling back and delaying the game as much as they have as they (unlike you) realize what an important release this is for them as a company. If this release is messed up it will be a huge blow to them (and to AiG) so there is a lot riding on it.

Could someone like BioWare or EA do the development faster? Of course, if they were interested in this market. Of course we would more than likely ended up with the POC that was Empire:TW which I have played twice and have not touched since (unlike HoI3 I might add).

Unfortunately, Matrix, Paradox, etc. are all very small companies, with extreamely limited resources. Unless you happen to be a mulitimillionaire and want to spend a couple of millions on producing WiF (or any game in this market) with a possible return of of only 25% of your investment (so you would net $500K on a $2M investment) you really have no business to say Matrix or AiG should pull the plug. As far as I am concerned, if you REALLY wanted to speed up the development of WiF, you would make a DONATION to Matrix to help them fund more resources to get the dev work done faster. If you are not willing to put your own personal monies at risk, you have no business telling Matrix to close the project down.

(in reply to CrusssDaddy)
Post #: 1731
RE: When? - 1/25/2010 1:46:16 AM   
killroyishere

 

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quote:

I am not sure where you get your information about HoI3 but I can attest that it is a)either very outdated or b) you have not played it yourself. I have owned HoI3 since it came out and can personally attest that

1. it is NOT a failure
2. There are NOT Legions of pissed off Paradox customers
3. The game is successful, playable, and fun (at least for me).


LOL I can attest that you are very wrong with your assumptions because you like the broken messed up game then everyone should also. There were threads after threads either deleted or closed of the Legions of disgruntled customers after its release. It's so broken that they are leaving patching it behind to make other messes in its wake. It went down to $7.49 on several download sites just a few months after release. That's a sure sign of a Paradox "another fine mess they've gotten themselves into game". It's the Paradox pattern, it's their creed. It's their family crest to put out messes and then spend years fixing them.

Even Hitler was frustrated: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHSCOkAZhYg&feature=related

< Message edited by killroyishere -- 1/25/2010 1:51:10 AM >

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 1732
RE: When? - 1/25/2010 2:14:19 AM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 1826
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Again where are your sources and evedience? I can say just as strongly say there are many threads stating that there are many people enjoying HoI3. I can actually post links that back up my claims. Where is your proof that "... they are leaving patching it behind to make other messes in it's wake."? I would love to see the source of that statement. If you cannot back up your statements with sources then your arguments are just empty and without substance.

(in reply to killroyishere)
Post #: 1733
RE: When? - 1/25/2010 2:43:53 AM   
killroyishere

 

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Truth and facts need no backup sources.

Besides as I said Paradox moderators deleted many of those threads. That's how they cover up their mess.

< Message edited by killroyishere -- 1/25/2010 2:45:01 AM >

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 1734
RE: When? - 1/25/2010 3:53:13 AM   
bfontes


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From: Cranston, RI
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The download price is $30, same everywhere I looked.  Winning an ebay auction right now for $15 used, hope for the best! LOL  For that price I will take the risk.

Don't worry, I'm still buying WiF when it's ready!

(in reply to killroyishere)
Post #: 1735
RE: When? - 1/25/2010 4:39:37 AM   
CrusssDaddy

 

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Numdydar, that's nice that you are enjoying your time spent with HOI3 and have no problems with it. Congrats on money well spent! Unfortunately, it is a matter of both fact and record that your viewpoint is shared by only a small fraction of the people who have bought and played the game. They are certainly a vocal minority, and aided by the fact that, 1. Paradox has closed accounts/banned threads that were critical of the game and 2. many people are so fed up with Paradox's behavior they have uninstalled the game and quit the forum - thus many critics and their critiques disappear.

I'm not going to waste time sampling the outrage that has not been banned: anyone can visit the Paradox forums and see it for themselves. I will attach this link, which is the latest statement from the dev team: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=457690

Of particular note are the things that are admitted to be beyond the scope of being fixed, including Allied cooperation (that should make D-Day fun) and a functional surrender mechanic. So I guess if those things are not important as part of your conception of a strategic WWII game, then you might well be perfectly happy with the game as is. That the dev expresses confusion over the fact that Patch 1.3 was so poorly received, yet Patch 1.4 is certain to cure all gripes, is evidence of a continuing disconnect between Paradox and their fans & customers, and indeed objective reality.

(Of course, it is impossible not to laugh at the dev's statement "Complaints beside a minor amount of bugs are only AI, balance, and performance." Oh, those are the only complaints? Such minor things!)

The rest of your post is contemptably silly, so I'll leave it to speak for itself.

[edited to fix the link]

< Message edited by CrusssDaddy -- 1/25/2010 4:40:16 AM >

(in reply to bfontes)
Post #: 1736
RE: When? - 1/25/2010 4:58:47 AM   
Arctic Blast


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quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere

quote:

I am not sure where you get your information about HoI3 but I can attest that it is a)either very outdated or b) you have not played it yourself. I have owned HoI3 since it came out and can personally attest that

1. it is NOT a failure
2. There are NOT Legions of pissed off Paradox customers
3. The game is successful, playable, and fun (at least for me).


LOL I can attest that you are very wrong with your assumptions because you like the broken messed up game then everyone should also. There were threads after threads either deleted or closed of the Legions of disgruntled customers after its release. It's so broken that they are leaving patching it behind to make other messes in its wake. It went down to $7.49 on several download sites just a few months after release. That's a sure sign of a Paradox "another fine mess they've gotten themselves into game". It's the Paradox pattern, it's their creed. It's their family crest to put out messes and then spend years fixing them.

Even Hitler was frustrated: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHSCOkAZhYg&feature=related


Everything was knocked down for the Christmas sales. Batman : Arkham Asylum, for example, was half price, and it was a hit. Having something dirt cheap during those insane Christmas sales this year is hardly a mark of failure.

_____________________________

Meditation on inevitable death should be performed daily.

(in reply to killroyishere)
Post #: 1737
RE: When? - 1/25/2010 8:07:11 AM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 949
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From: Madrid, Spain
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

Numdydar, that's nice that you are enjoying your time spent with HOI3 and have no problems with it. Congrats on money well spent! Unfortunately, it is a matter of both fact and record that your viewpoint is shared by only a small fraction of the people who have bought and played the game. They are certainly a vocal minority, and aided by the fact that, 1. Paradox has closed accounts/banned threads that were critical of the game and 2. many people are so fed up with Paradox's behavior they have uninstalled the game and quit the forum - thus many critics and their critiques disappear.



About Paradox, I could not agree more, I am one of the former buyers/forum members, who contributed to give ideas/supply info, leaded the spanish translation team (voluntary), made it known in my circles when they were almost unknown, etc.. The slightest critic was inmediately answered with deletions, warnings and bans. There was no other option than to leave the forum.

(in reply to CrusssDaddy)
Post #: 1738
RE: When? - 1/25/2010 1:50:25 PM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 1826
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Well I will see your link and raise you one :). How about the link below?

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=456759

Also, the link you supplied actually discusses what Paradox considers to be Patch material versus an expansion. The person actually posting from Paradox is the Main Dev for HoI3, similar to Shannon here. This is why I support both companies.

I have been on both forums, here and at Paradox for years and have not seen a single thread that has beed deleted or closed that discussed issues or problems in a civil manner. I actually have been very surprised at some of the threads that have remained open due to how (as opposed to what) they were expressing themselves. The forum rules are in place for a reason and it still amazes me that people blame their viewpoints as to why their threads were closed versus HOW they were expressing those views. Two different things.

(in reply to Arctic Blast)
Post #: 1739
RE: When? - 1/25/2010 2:07:03 PM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 1826
Joined: 2/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere

Truth and facts need no backup sources.

Besides as I said Paradox moderators deleted many of those threads. That's how they cover up their mess.


Wow! Really? It is obvious that you have not written any research papers. I would love to have been able to tell the teachers I had that truth and facts need no sources, lol. It would have made school much easier.

What is truth and facts to you will be different for others. If you want to change peoples opnions, then you need to provide concrete examples of your points so people can look them up and see why you believe the way you do.

I truely am interested in what you posted before as I have not experienced threads closing due to people's disagreement with the devs nor have I seen it happen without a very good reason. So I would like to see some examples where an opposing viewpoint, expressed properly, was shut down at Paradox. I ask because it would have a negitive impact on how I currently view them. Without that information, there is no reason for me to change my mind or opnion, because you just saying so is not good enough without external sources. In other words why should I believe your statements when my direct experiences do not support your view?

I CAN provide many examples of threads of people enjoying HoI3 as I am. I am hoping that I will do the same when WiF comes out.

(in reply to killroyishere)
Post #: 1740
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