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RE: When? - 8/9/2008 12:07:08 PM   
macgregor


Posts: 968
Joined: 2/10/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: panzers

Is it me, or do I sense a little deterioration in a very good and informative thread?


The thread regulars would probably be the ones to best answer this. As one that's dealt with some impatience issues, I'd like to say that I'm beginning to get excited again. Even if the ETA is still 6-9 months away, we're now in the 4th quarter. Notwithstanding the Netplay, which hopefully with Dan's help won't take too long, all that's left are bugs. The creative(engineering) work, which is the most difficult to predict timewise, appears to be done. The graphics are done. I don't want to underestimate the number or difficulty of the bugs remaining, but I think this kind of problem-solving is much more predictable and thus, I'm feeling much better about the ETA.

(in reply to undercovergeek)
Post #: 661
RE: When? - 8/9/2008 6:09:19 PM   
wargameplayer

 

Posts: 105
Joined: 4/4/2005
Status: offline
Look I will stand by the comment I made around a year ago on this thread.

It''s pretty obvious from even a cursory monitoring of the progress reports that there is a mistmatch between the project complexity and the ability of the programmer.  

Why?
1) Constant inability to gauge the time required to complete milestones
2) too much time interacting with users here, not enough time spent on development of the game
3) constant missing of deadlines set for yourself BY YOURSELF.
4) inability to understand the need for help finsihing the project and/or an inabilty to work with others.
5) a seeming fear of letting others into the project to help code and develop the game.  When I suggested a year ago he bring on talent to help code the game it was classic "uhm more people would just make this go slower".  "the code is too complex to be done by more than one person"  I've managed enough programmers to see this type of response and know what it means.   That kind of resposne set off about 5 different red flags which have all proven to be correct.

People who offer to pre order the game are kidding themselves.  A big change is needed to get a half decent product here.   If things don't change dramatically either the product that comes out will be horrible or it will plainly never come out.

Sorry if this comment is too much truth for some of the glad handers here that are kidding themselves. But I said this stuff a year ago and it's turned out to delay after delay when the deadlines are selected by the programmer himself.

If you guys really care about the project you will urge Matrix to either get more help to get this thing done, or get the project assigned the resources it needs to be completed.  Glad handing and only accentuating the positive is getting this game nowhere.


(in reply to macgregor)
Post #: 662
RE: When? - 8/9/2008 10:15:05 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 18281
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wargameplayer
Look I will stand by the comment I made around a year ago on this thread.

It''s pretty obvious from even a cursory monitoring of the progress reports that there is a mistmatch between the project complexity and the ability of the programmer.  

Why?
1) Constant inability to gauge the time required to complete milestones
2) too much time interacting with users here, not enough time spent on development of the game
3) constant missing of deadlines set for yourself BY YOURSELF.
4) inability to understand the need for help finsihing the project and/or an inabilty to work with others.
5) a seeming fear of letting others into the project to help code and develop the game.  When I suggested a year ago he bring on talent to help code the game it was classic "uhm more people would just make this go slower".  "the code is too complex to be done by more than one person"  I've managed enough programmers to see this type of response and know what it means.   That kind of resposne set off about 5 different red flags which have all proven to be correct.

People who offer to pre order the game are kidding themselves.  A big change is needed to get a half decent product here.   If things don't change dramatically either the product that comes out will be horrible or it will plainly never come out.

Sorry if this comment is too much truth for some of the glad handers here that are kidding themselves. But I said this stuff a year ago and it's turned out to delay after delay when the deadlines are selected by the programmer himself.

If you guys really care about the project you will urge Matrix to either get more help to get this thing done, or get the project assigned the resources it needs to be completed.  Glad handing and only accentuating the positive is getting this game nowhere.


Impugning my ability is rather rough.

It is certainly true I haven't appreciated the difficulties and time involved in taking a program containing 100,000 lines of undocumented code, designed for a single player on a single computer, and converting it so it can run on multiple computers used by multiple players. When I first looked at the performance of the code (June 2005) it looked ok, though there are thousands of details in the WIF rules that have to be coded correctly and there was no way I could evaluate that without looking at the code in detail - which I hadn't done.

As for hiring more people, help is hard to come by. I can point to several delays being related directly to 'subcontracting' a portion of the work to others and having those portions not arrive in a timely manner (over a year late). Yes, it would be nice to put together a team of 6 professional programmers and develop the product the same way I would a database system for order entry, acccounting, inventroy control, manufacturing machine diagnostics, an expert system for helicopter maintenance, a simulation of human physiology responding to disease and medical treatment, or any of the other dozens of projects I have worked on and/or managed in my programming career. Somehow I do not think the budget allows for this. Projected total product sales just do not support that heavy an expenditure, especially since it would all have to be up-front money, before the revenue stream appears.

As for working with others, the two games I have developed previously were done with another programmer and a 60-40 split of the work. But we started with a blank sheet of paper, which made division of labor easy. It is extremely difficult to neatly partition MWIF, no matter how hard I try. What I have been able to do is split it by mode of play, but even that requires a common foundation of code. Oh, and I have managed up to 16 programmers working simultaneously on 5 different projects.

So, yes, let's go hire 4 or 5 more guys, and then spend 2-3 months getting them up to speed on the existing code base of 260,000 lines of code. And then finish off the project in another 2-3 months. Well, maybe, if those 4 or 5 guys turn out to be good at their jobs and work well with each other. I'm not sure who is paying their salaries for those 6 months.

You seem to view MWIF in the same context as a large commercial programming project, featuring cubicles, meeting rooms, state-of-the-art computer equipment, advanced telecommunications, 3 weeks of vacation, and holidays & weekends off. It's a real nice picture and a nice work environment that I have enjoyed for most of my career, but Matrix Games can't quite afford that.

And let me disabuse you of the idea that I 'fear' working with others. Quite the contrary. Having someone to write A, B, and C would be great. But the time required for them to get up to speed and the amount of time I would have to spend answering their questions would not be insignificant. To start with, they would have to be very skilled programmers and be working on this full time. I just haven't been able to find a lot of people who meet those qualifications who are willing to work unpaid for a year or more.
---
I do take major exception to your criticism of the time I spend communicating to forum members. It has resulted in a vast improvement in the design of the final product. By using feedback on even seemingly trivial decisions (e.g., color choices) the product is an order of magnitude superior to what I would have achieved on my own.

I strongly recommend it to any programming project you are involved with. Let the final users see what you are doing and comment on the thousands of decisions that are made by the programmer(s) - before the code is written. Otherwise you will see a lot of unhappy faces on your users when your product is delivered and you will have to go back to your programmers to have them redesign sections of the program from scratch, or apply unwieldly patches to accommodate all the things they hadn't taken into consideration.

Yeah, I use a lot of words - blah, blah, blah. But if you are a programmer, you should try it. If you can't articulate your ideas in written words, it is pretty much hopeless to try to program them. At times it seems that I learn as much by writing as I do by reading. For instance, your 5 points are actually 3 points.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to wargameplayer)
Post #: 663
RE: When? - 8/9/2008 10:35:16 PM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6566
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wargameplayer
Sorry if this comment is too much truth for some of the glad handers here that are kidding themselves.

Excellent approach. When you're not happy, insult everybody.

I also like the idea of not being involved in the project and calling the person responsible for completing it incompetent.

Very nice. Here, let me offer you my glad hand to shake. Sorry if it's only got one finger extended.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to wargameplayer)
Post #: 664
RE: When? - 8/9/2008 10:38:17 PM   
HansHafen

 

Posts: 256
Joined: 2/3/2008
Status: offline
Well, its my money, and I reserve the right to do with it what I will. That means I don't care what you think. And you're kidding yourself if you think I do. You don't have to pre-order, no one asked you to. I offered to do so, if it would protect the integrity of the program from financial concerns relating to the release date.

What have you designed, by the way. I would like the opportunity to review your accomplishments.

(in reply to wargameplayer)
Post #: 665
RE: When? - 8/10/2008 12:47:38 AM   
chris.munson


Posts: 368
Joined: 9/15/2007
Status: offline
Shannon,

Apologies for the rude treatment from wargameplayer. It is obvious he works for a large organization with infinite resources. As you state, who is going to pay for this program dream team? I'm sure he prides himself on his take no prisoners tough guy stance. I am the CEO of a company that rescues technology companies for investors and understand all to well the constraints of resources on a project. Guys like him are the first ones I fire.

Your work is appreciated. The thoroughness of your methods is commendable and I am sure the end product will get the praise it deserves.

Chris

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 666
RE: When? - 8/10/2008 3:59:33 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6566
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline
There are many people who have developed games for sale through Matrix who have taken a lot of undeserved crap.

I support their efforts, both verbally and with my money. The list of entrepreneurial wargame heroes is longer than I can remember or mention here, but let's hear it for Steve and the likes of Marshall Ellis, Frank Hunter, and the rest.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to chris.munson)
Post #: 667
RE: When? - 8/10/2008 6:17:53 AM   
SamuraiProgrammer

 

Posts: 338
Joined: 10/17/2004
From: Paducah, Kentucky
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wargameplayer

Look I will stand by the comment I made around a year ago on this thread.

It''s pretty obvious from even a cursory monitoring of the progress reports that there is a mistmatch between the project complexity and the ability of the programmer.  

Why?
1) Constant inability to gauge the time required to complete milestones
2) too much time interacting with users here, not enough time spent on development of the game
3) constant missing of deadlines set for yourself BY YOURSELF.
4) inability to understand the need for help finsihing the project and/or an inabilty to work with others.
5) a seeming fear of letting others into the project to help code and develop the game.  When I suggested a year ago he bring on talent to help code the game it was classic "uhm more people would just make this go slower".  "the code is too complex to be done by more than one person"  I've managed enough programmers to see this type of response and know what it means.   That kind of resposne set off about 5 different red flags which have all proven to be correct.

People who offer to pre order the game are kidding themselves.  A big change is needed to get a half decent product here.   If things don't change dramatically either the product that comes out will be horrible or it will plainly never come out.

Sorry if this comment is too much truth for some of the glad handers here that are kidding themselves. But I said this stuff a year ago and it's turned out to delay after delay when the deadlines are selected by the programmer himself.

If you guys really care about the project you will urge Matrix to either get more help to get this thing done, or get the project assigned the resources it needs to be completed.  Glad handing and only accentuating the positive is getting this game nowhere.




I notice that you mention having managed programmers.

Have you ever written a system by yourself? Have you ever done any programming or do you just 'crack the whip' and take the credit.

It is clear that you don't appreciate the business model that Matrix Games is working under. I think it is necessary in order to get games like World In Flames published. EA won't do it. Firaxis won't do it. Microsoft won't do it. Why? because the revenue stream will not match Halo, Civilization, or Rise of Nations.

There is a saying in software development. "There are three features of a project: Quick, Quality, and Inexpensive. You can have any two, but never all three." Experience has shown this to be accurate.

I think the revenue stream of a complex turn based wargame that Inexpensive has to be a given. So - choose between Quick and Quality.

I choose Quality.

If you think you can do better, I suggest you do the following....

1. buy the rights to a game that you would like to see published as a computer game

2. hire a bunch of programmers

3. hire a bunch of graphic artists

4. hire some documentation writers

5. hire a web master (or web staff)

6. hire a receptionist

7. produce something instead of criticizing others.

8. don't forget where you put the resumes, because with your attitude I would expect that less than 20% of your programming staff will last through the end of the job.

Keep a list of how many times you make some of the same decisions made by Matrix when it is YOUR wallet that is affected.




In all my years, I have never seen anyone who is
...as open about what is going on with the project as Steve
...as willing to take criticism (constructive or otherwise) if it will help the quality of the finished product as Steve
...as nice to those who have genuinely earned his ire as Steve
...as dedicated to focusing completely on such a large product with no pay along the way as Steve

It disturbs me to see you slander him as I believe you have

Furthermore, to quote someone upthread, what I choose to do with my money is my business.

How I choose to be supportive is my business

What projects I choose to be supportive to is my business

At least I have the guts to put my money where my mouth is.

Talk is cheap --- form your own game company and show us something. Until then..... PLONK!




_____________________________

Bridge is the best wargame going .. Where else can you find a tournament every weekend?

(in reply to wargameplayer)
Post #: 668
RE: When? - 8/10/2008 7:35:09 AM   
panzers

 

Posts: 571
Joined: 5/19/2006
From: Detroit Mi, USA
Status: offline
Hmm, I've got a great idea: in order to keep this thread on the positive side that it has for quite some time now, I think the only way to do that is to block a certain member that doesn't even have 100 posts in the matrix forum. I say keep it that way so he doesn't ever make it to 100. It is unacceptable to allow myself to have my IQ level disgraced by a tool such as this.
Steve, do us all a favor and please do not give anyone the honor of your defense of something you have obviously worked so hard for.
This is not a thread that is worth locking because some people don't want to bother to take the time to read up on progress of a game such as this that has never been done before. Better to lock this idiot out before the thread.

(in reply to SamuraiProgrammer)
Post #: 669
RE: When? - 8/10/2008 9:12:39 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 18052
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: panzers

Hmm, I've got a great idea: in order to keep this thread on the positive side that it has for quite some time now, I think the only way to do that is to block a certain member that doesn't even have 100 posts in the matrix forum. I say keep it that way so he doesn't ever make it to 100. It is unacceptable to allow myself to have my IQ level disgraced by a tool such as this.
Steve, do us all a favor and please do not give anyone the honor of your defense of something you have obviously worked so hard for.
This is not a thread that is worth locking because some people don't want to bother to take the time to read up on progress of a game such as this that has never been done before. Better to lock this idiot out before the thread.

Warspite1

Surely you can`t just lock people out just because they disagree with you? There has been one or two excellent responses to the original mis-guided comment. Can I now suggest that this post is ignored. Very often a post like that is done to provoke a reaction - just ignore it, they will get bored and go away.

(in reply to panzers)
Post #: 670
RE: When? - 8/10/2008 5:18:22 PM   
flipperwasirish


Posts: 1643
Joined: 2/25/2003
From: The Nutmeg State
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: panzers

Hmm, I've got a great idea: in order to keep this thread on the positive side that it has for quite some time now, I think the only way to do that is to block a certain member that doesn't even have 100 posts in the matrix forum. I say keep it that way so he doesn't ever make it to 100. It is unacceptable to allow myself to have my IQ level disgraced by a tool such as this.
Steve, do us all a favor and please do not give anyone the honor of your defense of something you have obviously worked so hard for.
This is not a thread that is worth locking because some people don't want to bother to take the time to read up on progress of a game such as this that has never been done before. Better to lock this idiot out before the thread.


Panzers,

Obviously you don't see the value of opinions different than yours. In my opinion Wargameplayer poorly phrased his point of view and that there is no room for insults by him or anyone else (please look at your post).

In many succesful projects I have either managed or been a team member on, the value of letting all sides talk about any issue has been rewarded, sometimes from what I would have thought was an odd (or wrong) place. Nuggets of briliance are out there, but to get at them you have to let all sides have freedom of speech. Sure, IMO, there are "dumb" questions but you gain more by listening to all of them, and sometimes find a new direction to take, or once in a while you even find a solution that what not easily seen by people too close to an issue (I have been guilty of this).

So with all that said, while I disliked Wargammers choice of words and his barely hidden insults. I do not believe the answer is to ban anybody.

Having one (1) post or hundreds or even thousands is not a measure of value.

Ideas are all that matters, and that can come on the first or the 15,025th post.

Steve is doing fine, he handled this issue with his usual class.

Now class it is time to move back to the task of getting this puppy completed.

Be well,


_____________________________

Flipper

(in reply to panzers)
Post #: 671
RE: When? - 8/10/2008 5:21:54 PM   
wargameplayer

 

Posts: 105
Joined: 4/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HansHafen

Well, its my money, and I reserve the right to do with it what I will. That means I don't care what you think. And you're kidding yourself if you think I do. You don't have to pre-order, no one asked you to. I offered to do so, if it would protect the integrity of the program from financial concerns relating to the release date.

What have you designed, by the way. I would like the opportunity to review your accomplishments.


Who is insulting him? or insulting "everybody"

I said he didn't have an inability to creidbily gauage the scope of the project. Not two years ago when it was a few months from being released, not a year ago when it was "very very soon" -- imminent relase. and not a year later when it's delayed and he's not sure when it's going to be released.

I suggested a year ago that he try and get some help and I was rebuffed in a way I've seen before from programmers. Could I be wrong that it really isn't a sign of deeper problems--you bet this is just my gut from wahtchign these updates year after year and seeing the release is imminent. But man--if I see two things 1) a seeming inability to guage the scope of work and time required to complete 2) an odd unwillingness to consider adding to the team (most huge progjects like this have a team).

Oh and one solo guy programming a huge project like this is in many ways worse than it not being done at all. At least if the project is not launched badly, some other publisher or some other team takes it up. Look at Paradox, they launch huge complex games like this but the lead progammer has a lot of help. It's not a solo closed komono act.

Oh and to answer someone elses question, i programmed my first computer game when I was 7 when they didn't have computer games so you had to write them yourself if you wanted to play one.

Just glad handing the programmer encourages them to not make any changes. If you guys want to see this game come out like I do, we need a change.

do you guys actually feel like even when this thing comes out --its going to be a decent product? that you will want to play like at the quality level of Gary Grigsby's world at War? I am not getting that vibe AT ALL.

And if people are just fat and happy we are looking at the same old stuff occurring over and over. The glad handers here are preventing us from getitng the changes that we need to get a good product. This is an incredible game and to see it going through this year after year in limbo is not fair to anyone-not the programmer, not to matrix and not to us.



< Message edited by wargameplayer -- 8/10/2008 5:24:39 PM >

(in reply to HansHafen)
Post #: 672
RE: When? - 8/10/2008 5:39:48 PM   
Dreadnought


Posts: 16
Joined: 9/12/2005
From: Hamburg, Germany
Status: offline
I do agree with wargameplayer

(in reply to wargameplayer)
Post #: 673
RE: When? - 8/10/2008 5:46:38 PM   
SamuraiProgrammer

 

Posts: 338
Joined: 10/17/2004
From: Paducah, Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wargameplayer

Oh and one solo guy programming a huge project like this is in many ways worse than it not being done at all.



Only if you don't want the game published.







_____________________________

Bridge is the best wargame going .. Where else can you find a tournament every weekend?

(in reply to wargameplayer)
Post #: 674
RE: When? - 8/10/2008 6:29:37 PM   
wosung

 

Posts: 612
Joined: 7/18/2005
Status: offline
You Mr. wargameplayer and you Mr. Dreadnought seemingly both have the spare time to criticize the progress MWIF has made until now.

But I can’t remember you both helping in the past years to get this project done.

Would you like to help?

You could do so by taking part in formulating AIO strategic behavior, proof reading the help and tutotial texts, or even to make some unit write-ups, etc.

Please both feel free to do so.

Regards

(in reply to wargameplayer)
Post #: 675
RE: When? - 8/10/2008 6:32:51 PM   
macgregor


Posts: 968
Joined: 2/10/2004
Status: offline
Of course wargameplayer will shut up when a viable product is released. My problem was always with the 'I want WiF, but I want it like this' people.'I want AI, solo play, PBEM'. This is not WiF, but a strategic-level WW2 game of your own design. My fear was that these people would hijack the product and I'd have to wait for all this development to see the actual game of WiF that seemed all so close. Say what you will, these fears have manifested. Steve is a brilliant 'type A' kind of guy who's dedication to Wif has basically been the basis of our relationship. He's an independent thinker that's not of the corporate mold. This may bother some, but there is an upside. He might just produce an innovative product that will set new standards for games of this genre. I'm sure that's his goal. Let's remember where this project was before he took over. The deadline is on him like a German blitzkrieg right now. He can handle it.

(in reply to SamuraiProgrammer)
Post #: 676
RE: When? - 8/10/2008 6:52:47 PM   
Jagdtiger14


Posts: 105
Joined: 1/22/2008
From: Miami Beach
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14
quote:

ORIGINAL: werwolf
I was just saying..................when?


Funny how no one wants to answer you? The predicted dates bounce between the Origins convention and Christmas. The last 'official' prediciton was Christmas 2008, but someone with quasi-authority wrote recently 'around Christmas', which leads me to guess it will be Origins 2009 at the earliest.
C


I'd add that this is the kind of complaining that brought EiA to the players in a non finished looking state.
The EiA forums were full of that, all year long, for years. Only complaining people.
Let's keep on ignoring that and keep making the game advancing.


Froonp...my only complaint I had at that point was that no one was answering the guy...how you can extend that to the EiA debacle is kind of crazy. How ever long it takes this product to come out...thats what it takes...I'm not saying it should be rushed out at all! I would however prefer to see honest projections. I agree with flipperwasirish concerning the value of differing opinions, seeing possible bits of brilliance in them, and the fredom of speach required to get at a good product that we all want to see...I would think this obvious. "glad handers" mentioned by wargameplayer are rampant in here (probably pasternakski chief amoung them, and by the way I extend my middle finger at him)...and while Steve deserves a pat on the back and encouragement...I also see him wasting time on useless posts in this forum (ie, politics, fantasy release party, etc...)...why would the programmer bother with this useless crap???
C


_____________________________

Conflict with the unexpected: two qualities are indispensable; first, an intellect which, even in the midst of this obscurity, is not without some traces of inner light which lead to the truth; second, the courage to follow this faint light. KvC

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 677
RE: When? - 8/10/2008 7:00:54 PM   
jjax


Posts: 276
Joined: 2/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor

Of course wargameplayer will shut up when a viable product is released. My problem was always with the 'I want WiF, but I want it like this' people.'I want AI, solo play, PBEM'. This is not WiF, but a strategic-level WW2 game of your own design. My fear was that these people would hijack the product and I'd have to wait for all this development to see the actual game of WiF that seemed all so close.


AI (and therefore solo play) and PBEM are both reasonable requests. This is NOT WiF(if you want that, rip out the board game), its MWiF. Matrix games want this to be commercial success (doesn’t the dev deserve that after the years he put into this game) and i doubt it can be with out a decent AI opponent or pbem. Mind you, no one is expecting deep blue.

But this discussion is pointless. The Dev has already said that Matrix games have demanded an AI opponent. And on this issue, I can't blame Matrix.

_____________________________

--JJAX


(in reply to macgregor)
Post #: 678
RE: When? - 8/10/2008 7:06:44 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7899
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14
quote:

ORIGINAL: werwolf
I was just saying..................when?


Funny how no one wants to answer you? The predicted dates bounce between the Origins convention and Christmas. The last 'official' prediciton was Christmas 2008, but someone with quasi-authority wrote recently 'around Christmas', which leads me to guess it will be Origins 2009 at the earliest.
C


I'd add that this is the kind of complaining that brought EiA to the players in a non finished looking state.
The EiA forums were full of that, all year long, for years. Only complaining people.
Let's keep on ignoring that and keep making the game advancing.


Froonp...my only complaint I had at that point was that no one was answering the guy...how you can extend that to the EiA debacle is kind of crazy. How ever long it takes this product to come out...thats what it takes...I'm not saying it should be rushed out at all! I would however prefer to see honest projections. I agree with flipperwasirish concerning the value of differing opinions, seeing possible bits of brilliance in them, and the fredom of speach required to get at a good product that we all want to see...I would think this obvious. "glad handers" mentioned by wargameplayer are rampant in here (probably pasternakski chief amoung them, and by the way I extend my middle finger at him)...and while Steve deserves a pat on the back and encouragement...I also see him wasting time on useless posts in this forum (ie, politics, fantasy release party, etc...)...why would the programmer bother with this useless crap???
C


Sorry if I was not clear, but my comment was directed toward werwolf comment, not yours. The EiA forum was plaggued with people asking "when" all the time.

(in reply to Jagdtiger14)
Post #: 679
RE: When? - 8/10/2008 7:34:18 PM   
HansHafen

 

Posts: 256
Joined: 2/3/2008
Status: offline
OK, let's go back to some basic math. It costs money to create a game like this. Someone has listed all the positions above. Pay each of those people a minimum wage of $20,000.00 per year. So, five people working full-time times $20,000.00 is $100,000.00. Does Matrix have $100,000.00 to invest (That word means RISK, in this context) in WIF? No. Does ADG have $100,000.00 to invest? Probably no. Is there anyone else out there in this wide world of ours who is standing up and saying I have that kind of cash to invest/risk, let me pay? No. Although, I would self-servingly point out once again that I have offered (Stupidly, kidding myselfly) to pony up $100.00 to help.

So, since there is no MONEY to hire all this help you say he needs, all your girlish whinning is sorta like PISSING IN THE WIND, doncha think stud! Enough math, let's look at something even more costly and hard to come by; dedication, faith, belief, honor.

This programmer is obviously pouring his soul into this project. He knows how WIF plays and he is trying to faithfully recreate that in a computer game from scratch. Since you have self reported yourself as a programmer, you should understand what that means. Oh, btw, where is the link to your CV and some of your better programs? Remember Atomic Games and Three Sixty Pacific when they were trying to develop computer ports of Avalon Hills boardgames? How do you think that worked out? Anyway, he is sleeping, eating and I guarantee you, dreaming WIF everyday of his life at this point. He is Michaelangelo working his ass off to make sure each detail is correct to his vision. You can't rush a work of art. This project would not be possible without him.

(in reply to wargameplayer)
Post #: 680
RE: When? - 8/10/2008 7:39:21 PM   
wargameplayer

 

Posts: 105
Joined: 4/4/2005
Status: offline

Man--I am not saying get this thing out ASAP. My concern is this looks just like EIA. A classic game that didn't have the resources put behind it to make it work. and it means no other publisher will try it if it fails.

and man--nowhere did I insult anybody. What I said was I said a year ago this project felt like it needed like a team of 2 or more at least coding it based on how I was reading those progress reports. what did I get back--oh that would slow me down because of these special circumstances. Do you not think I have heard that one before?

The best way to refute my point maybe is some of the beta testers to come out saying the game is in good shape and that our concerns are ill founded.

Something that would make me feel better is...
"Hey there are some bugs we found but the overall game play, balance, rule implementation and scope are incredible and the best WWII game I've seen".
Like I want to see something that is on par or better than paradox game.

My fear at this point is the game I loved as a kid is going to come out badly and no publisher will try to relauch it cuz it turned out bad commercially.

That's not about --lets make it come out soon. In fact--i'd rather it never come out by this publisher if its going to be bad.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14
quote:

ORIGINAL: werwolf
I was just saying..................when?


Funny how no one wants to answer you? The predicted dates bounce between the Origins convention and Christmas. The last 'official' prediciton was Christmas 2008, but someone with quasi-authority wrote recently 'around Christmas', which leads me to guess it will be Origins 2009 at the earliest.
C


I'd add that this is the kind of complaining that brought EiA to the players in a non finished looking state.
The EiA forums were full of that, all year long, for years. Only complaining people.
Let's keep on ignoring that and keep making the game advancing.


Froonp...my only complaint I had at that point was that no one was answering the guy...how you can extend that to the EiA debacle is kind of crazy. How ever long it takes this product to come out...thats what it takes...I'm not saying it should be rushed out at all! I would however prefer to see honest projections. I agree with flipperwasirish concerning the value of differing opinions, seeing possible bits of brilliance in them, and the fredom of speach required to get at a good product that we all want to see...I would think this obvious. "glad handers" mentioned by wargameplayer are rampant in here (probably pasternakski chief amoung them, and by the way I extend my middle finger at him)...and while Steve deserves a pat on the back and encouragement...I also see him wasting time on useless posts in this forum (ie, politics, fantasy release party, etc...)...why would the programmer bother with this useless crap???
C



(in reply to Jagdtiger14)
Post #: 681
RE: When? - 8/10/2008 7:44:12 PM   
wargameplayer

 

Posts: 105
Joined: 4/4/2005
Status: offline
When I suggested adding more people a year or so ago, the issue of resistance was "hey it's a special project it will slow me down if I have to bring people in.

he didn't say --oh we don't have the money.

So you don't know what you are talking about buddy.

What you bring up is a totally different issue that may be true also tho. A lot of people love this particular war game, if Matrix or others wanted to bring in other investors to partner up on the project I bet they could raise money easy for it
IF IT WAS DONE RIGHT.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansHafen

OK, let's go back to some basic math. It costs money to create a game like this. Someone has listed all the positions above. Pay each of those people a minimum wage of $20,000.00 per year. So, five people working full-time times $20,000.00 is $100,000.00. Does Matrix have $100,000.00 to invest (That word means RISK, in this context) in WIF? No. Does ADG have $100,000.00 to invest? Probably no. Is there anyone else out there in this wide world of ours who is standing up and saying I have that kind of cash to invest/risk, let me pay? No. Although, I would self-servingly point out once again that I have offered (Stupidly, kidding myselfly) to pony up $100.00 to help.

So, since there is no MONEY to hire all this help you say he needs, all your girlish whinning is sorta like PISSING IN THE WIND, doncha think stud! Enough math, let's look at something even more costly and hard to come by; dedication, faith, belief, honor.

This programmer is obviously pouring his soul into this project. He knows how WIF plays and he is trying to faithfully recreate that in a computer game from scratch. Since you have self reported yourself as a programmer, you should understand what that means. Oh, btw, where is the link to your CV and some of your better programs? Remember Atomic Games and Three Sixty Pacific when they were trying to develop computer ports of Avalon Hills boardgames? How do you think that worked out? Anyway, he is sleeping, eating and I guarantee you, dreaming WIF everyday of his life at this point. He is Michaelangelo working his ass off to make sure each detail is correct to his vision. You can't rush a work of art. This project would not be possible without him.



< Message edited by wargameplayer -- 8/10/2008 7:45:31 PM >

(in reply to HansHafen)
Post #: 682
RE: When? - 8/10/2008 8:26:57 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 18281
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wargameplayer

When I suggested adding more people a year or so ago, the issue of resistance was "hey it's a special project it will slow me down if I have to bring people in.

he didn't say --oh we don't have the money.

So you don't know what you are talking about buddy.

What you bring up is a totally different issue that may be true also tho. A lot of people love this particular war game, if Matrix or others wanted to bring in other investors to partner up on the project I bet they could raise money easy for it
IF IT WAS DONE RIGHT.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansHafen

OK, let's go back to some basic math. It costs money to create a game like this. Someone has listed all the positions above. Pay each of those people a minimum wage of $20,000.00 per year. So, five people working full-time times $20,000.00 is $100,000.00. Does Matrix have $100,000.00 to invest (That word means RISK, in this context) in WIF? No. Does ADG have $100,000.00 to invest? Probably no. Is there anyone else out there in this wide world of ours who is standing up and saying I have that kind of cash to invest/risk, let me pay? No. Although, I would self-servingly point out once again that I have offered (Stupidly, kidding myselfly) to pony up $100.00 to help.

So, since there is no MONEY to hire all this help you say he needs, all your girlish whinning is sorta like PISSING IN THE WIND, doncha think stud! Enough math, let's look at something even more costly and hard to come by; dedication, faith, belief, honor.

This programmer is obviously pouring his soul into this project. He knows how WIF plays and he is trying to faithfully recreate that in a computer game from scratch. Since you have self reported yourself as a programmer, you should understand what that means. Oh, btw, where is the link to your CV and some of your better programs? Remember Atomic Games and Three Sixty Pacific when they were trying to develop computer ports of Avalon Hills boardgames? How do you think that worked out? Anyway, he is sleeping, eating and I guarantee you, dreaming WIF everyday of his life at this point. He is Michaelangelo working his ass off to make sure each detail is correct to his vision. You can't rush a work of art. This project would not be possible without him.



That's twice you have quoted me without showing the quote. I don't have the time to look it up. Do you?

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to wargameplayer)
Post #: 683
RE: When? - 8/10/2008 8:36:13 PM   
wargameplayer

 

Posts: 105
Joined: 4/4/2005
Status: offline
yep steve..see below.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: wargameplayer
If it's been worked on for 5k hours and its been several years. and still 3k to go I'd guess its about 18 months away. Have you thought about outsourcing some of the more mundane coding to India? That way the game would come out a lot faster and probably cheaper. Heck I'd invest in some development dollars since it's such a great game and I've always wanted to see it in computer format.
quote:



Some of us work 60+ hours a week just like Steve. I strongly doubt write-ups are delaying production of the game. Those who have the spare time are donating. Throwing insults contributes nothing positive, and doesn't even cast the game in a good light. All prospective players of the game should have a chance to comment regardless of the decisions made. Being defensive on behalf of Steve and/or throwing insults is non-productive.

_____________________________



I cowrote a wargame in assembler with a very close friend in the mid-1980s. And obviously I have worked on numerous other programming projects involving a team of programmers. This project doesn't lend itself to that very well. Currently, I am rewriting existing code, turning it into a more structured design. That requires separating the variables and routines into different modules: standard Windows program application tasks, Player Interface, Game-in-Progress variables (date, turn, phase, impulse, subphase, phasing player, ...), Game Control (Sequence of Play and transitioning from one phase to the next), Simulation Control (updating the map and unit variables, etc.), Game Record Log (for replay), and so on.

Since I started with existing code that had these variables/functionality intertwined, it really is a one-person task to break them into separate code entities. If I had my best friend working alongside me everyday, then perhaps we could work out a division of labor where the overhead of communication did not wipe out the benefit of having 2 people work on the project. But he lives in Pennsylvania and has a full time job supporting his family (he needs that regular paycheck). My point here is that very close communications would be required and there would be a lot of time spent/lost simply telling each other what is being done. One reason the original code I received had things intertwined is that there is enormous interaction between elements of MWIF: the player, the operating system, and the simulation.

I absolutely have to have them separated to add any of the capabilities required in my contract with Matrix: Internet, PBEM, AI Opponent.

Over the last year and a half I have been able to make changes to support the new graphics for the map and units, and many other changes, but doing so interduced "hard to track down" bugs because of the program structure. The redesign I am working on now should alleviate those problems.




quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: wargameplayer

When I suggested adding more people a year or so ago, the issue of resistance was "hey it's a special project it will slow me down if I have to bring people in.

he didn't say --oh we don't have the money.

So you don't know what you are talking about buddy.

What you bring up is a totally different issue that may be true also tho. A lot of people love this particular war game, if Matrix or others wanted to bring in other investors to partner up on the project I bet they could raise money easy for it
IF IT WAS DONE RIGHT.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansHafen

OK, let's go back to some basic math. It costs money to create a game like this. Someone has listed all the positions above. Pay each of those people a minimum wage of $20,000.00 per year. So, five people working full-time times $20,000.00 is $100,000.00. Does Matrix have $100,000.00 to invest (That word means RISK, in this context) in WIF? No. Does ADG have $100,000.00 to invest? Probably no. Is there anyone else out there in this wide world of ours who is standing up and saying I have that kind of cash to invest/risk, let me pay? No. Although, I would self-servingly point out once again that I have offered (Stupidly, kidding myselfly) to pony up $100.00 to help.

So, since there is no MONEY to hire all this help you say he needs, all your girlish whinning is sorta like PISSING IN THE WIND, doncha think stud! Enough math, let's look at something even more costly and hard to come by; dedication, faith, belief, honor.

This programmer is obviously pouring his soul into this project. He knows how WIF plays and he is trying to faithfully recreate that in a computer game from scratch. Since you have self reported yourself as a programmer, you should understand what that means. Oh, btw, where is the link to your CV and some of your better programs? Remember Atomic Games and Three Sixty Pacific when they were trying to develop computer ports of Avalon Hills boardgames? How do you think that worked out? Anyway, he is sleeping, eating and I guarantee you, dreaming WIF everyday of his life at this point. He is Michaelangelo working his ass off to make sure each detail is correct to his vision. You can't rush a work of art. This project would not be possible without him.



That's twice you have quoted me without showing the quote. I don't have the time to look it up. Do you?


(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 684
RE: When? - 8/10/2008 9:26:46 PM   
wfzimmerman


Posts: 649
Joined: 10/22/2003
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wargameplayer


The best way to refute my point maybe is some of the beta testers to come out saying the game is in good shape and that our concerns are ill founded.

Something that would make me feel better is...
"Hey there are some bugs we found but the overall game play, balance, rule implementation and scope are incredible and the best WWII game I've seen".
Like I want to see something that is on par or better than paradox game.




Hey, there are some bugs and things left to be done, but the overall game play, balance, rule implementation and scope are incredible and this will be the best WWII game ever.

I am familiar with Paradox games and this will be infinitely better than HOI.

/a beta tester

_____________________________

Contribute to the Steve H. thank you book! http://www.nimblebooks.com/wordpress/2009/04/contribute-to-the-wargamers-wwii-quiz-book/

(in reply to wargameplayer)
Post #: 685
RE: When? - 8/10/2008 9:28:43 PM   
wfzimmerman


Posts: 649
Joined: 10/22/2003
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansHafen

OK, let's go back to some basic math. It costs money to create a game like this. Someone has listed all the positions above. Pay each of those people a minimum wage of $20,000.00 per year. So, five people working full-time times $20,000.00 is $100,000.00. D


$100,000/year is a good rule of thumb for an FTE in the real world.

_____________________________

Contribute to the Steve H. thank you book! http://www.nimblebooks.com/wordpress/2009/04/contribute-to-the-wargamers-wwii-quiz-book/

(in reply to HansHafen)
Post #: 686
RE: When? - 8/10/2008 9:31:40 PM   
wfzimmerman


Posts: 649
Joined: 10/22/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

August 1, 2008 Status Report for Matrix Games’ MWIF Forum




Personally, I think a very useful metric at this point would be a line graph showing the number of open items on your "to do" list by month. Plot a knee curve out to where it asymptotes, and that's the release date.

< Message edited by wfzimmerman -- 8/10/2008 9:47:03 PM >


_____________________________

Contribute to the Steve H. thank you book! http://www.nimblebooks.com/wordpress/2009/04/contribute-to-the-wargamers-wwii-quiz-book/

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 687
RE: When? - 8/10/2008 10:45:24 PM   
macgregor


Posts: 968
Joined: 2/10/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jjax
AI (and therefore solo play) and PBEM are both reasonable requests. This is NOT WiF(if you want that, rip out the board game), its MWiF. Matrix games want this to be commercial success (doesn’t the dev deserve that after the years he put into this game) and i doubt it can be with out a decent AI opponent or pbem. Mind you, no one is expecting deep blue.

But this discussion is pointless. The Dev has already said that Matrix games have demanded an AI opponent. And on this issue, I can't blame Matrix.


I'm sure when i see what's been done, I'll understand why it had to be done. I was just being selfish I guess. A purist. The wait is close to being over, so indeed the point is moot.

(in reply to jjax)
Post #: 688
RE: When? - 8/10/2008 11:38:34 PM   
Taxman66


Posts: 132
Joined: 3/19/2008
Status: offline
The reality of situation is what it is, and is extremely unlikely to change.  Arguing over what would have been 'better' is pointless, and so is getting upset about it.

Time for some WifZen: 
The game will be done when it is done.  Those that want to play the game will do so at that time.  Those of us that are fans of the game and are mature about the situation will wait patiently and are supportive and appreciative of Matrix and Shannon's efforts to bring it to the RAM.

---
Taxman - Whoose real name is somewhat prominent in the DoD3 credits and whom had spent an ungodly number of hours and multiple real years working on it before Harry ever did.

_____________________________

"Part of the $10 million I spent on gambling, part on booze and part on women. The rest I spent foolishly." - George Raft

(in reply to macgregor)
Post #: 689
RE: When? - 8/11/2008 1:46:37 AM   
SamuraiProgrammer

 

Posts: 338
Joined: 10/17/2004
From: Paducah, Kentucky
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansHafen
This programmer is obviously pouring his soul into this project. He knows how WIF plays and he is trying to faithfully recreate that in a computer game from scratch. Since you have self reported yourself as a programmer, you should understand what that means. Oh, btw, where is the link to your CV and some of your better programs? Remember Atomic Games and Three Sixty Pacific when they were trying to develop computer ports of Avalon Hills boardgames? How do you think that worked out? Anyway, he is sleeping, eating and I guarantee you, dreaming WIF everyday of his life at this point. He is Michaelangelo working his ass off to make sure each detail is correct to his vision. You can't rush a work of art. This project would not be possible without him.


RIGHT ON!



_____________________________

Bridge is the best wargame going .. Where else can you find a tournament every weekend?

(in reply to HansHafen)
Post #: 690
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