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Hello!...a few questions

 
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Hello!...a few questions - 7/8/2005 2:21:38 PM   
Bullman

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 7/2/2005
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Hi,

Finally got around to getting this game. Been great so far. Map will come in handy also when I tour Market Garden battlefield later this year

Just a few questions.

Personally, I do not trust the AI to place and manage my arty assests (edited: i don't like WHERE HQ units physically place arty units on the map. I do like it how detatched arty units are on-call for any unit that might need it and apart from ammo issues, am happy to have the AI automatically conduct/direct arty fire) I have been giving defend orders to all the arty units. If I am not mistaken, this will leave them on call to support an attack/defence by any other unit.

Now if I want to rest these units to prevent them from using up all their ammo, what is the best way to do it without making them relocated (and potentially moving out of an entrenched position)? Be good if you could just switch them on/off from being on-call. I have been finding myself pausing the, issuing the defend command + in-stu. A very awkward way to achieve what shoudl be a simple ends.

Also, what might I be forgoing if I detach all my arty (mortars to heavy arty) from their organic HQ and leave them on-call to support whatever units they think they should??

Finally, is there a way to pick a HQ unit and have all it's organic sub-ordinate units reattach themselves (if they aren't already) to it?

I am looking for opponents to play against as well so please drop me a line at bullman@iinet.net.au if you are up for a game or two.

Cheers

Bullman

< Message edited by Bullman -- 7/9/2005 9:34:59 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Hello!...a few questions - 7/8/2005 5:06:24 PM   
Grognard


Posts: 190
Joined: 6/24/2004
From: Madison, Wisconsin
Status: offline
Welcome to the forum Bullman

If your initial order to an Arty unit is "Rest" they will be permanently under your command (ie you won't need to give them any in-situ orders). Enable the "Rest after bombard" box and you're set. "Waiting" is what you want all the time.

Your only forego is more of a command load on the on-map boss, but this is necessary and minor and the way most folks do it with big calibre stuff. Mortars are more suited to your style of play. If you like to micromanage, do the same w/mortars, but again, more of a command load - many more folks are content to let the AI manage mortars. You can also conserve ammo by reducing (the default 15 minute) barrage length. OTOH, with Werfers you might want to increase the length as their ROF is very slow and always have lots of ammo left at the end of the day.

The Fire Support Tab is a good way of checking Arty unit status and also accessing them by clicking on the icon within the Fire Support Tab.

IIRC you cannot pick an HQ unit and re-attach organic subs. You must go to the sub and re-attach up. However if you re-attach an HQ unit up to a higher HQ any of it's temp subs will revert to their organic boss. Sometimes that's a pain if you wanted to keep a unit detatched to another HQ but that's how it is.

Hope this helps

_____________________________

Find 'em, Fix 'em, & Kill 'em

(in reply to Bullman)
Post #: 2
RE: Hello!...a few questions - 7/9/2005 2:25:22 AM   
Arjuna


Posts: 17790
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline
Bullman,

Welcome.

I like your suggestion for a command that would automatically reattach organic subForces. I'll add it to our wish list. There is a downside to this in that if for instance you have a Bn with four companies all of which have been attached to separate HQs, then by using this command they will cause each of those separate HQs to replan their missions.

Thanks to Grognard for replying also. His last point about "However if you re-attach an HQ unit up to a higher HQ any of it's temp subs will revert to their organic boss" while true for HTTR will not be the case in our new game COnquest of the Aegean ( COTA ) where those dewtached subForces will stay with their current superForce.

Enjoy.



_____________________________

Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

(in reply to Grognard)
Post #: 3
RE: Hello!...a few questions - 7/9/2005 5:00:53 AM   
Bullman

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 7/2/2005
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OK, got it. :)

However I don't understand the significance of the command load when detaching arty (eg. giving individual rest/defend orders). I know there is an on-map boss HQ to which all HQs can eventually trace a command path back to (usually a divisional or corp HQ). Are you saying that whenever an arty unit is givien an individual rest/defend (or other) command it becomes controlled by the big boss HQ? I am missing something here.

Why would you want to leave an arty asset attached to a HQ anyway? From what I understand, an arty unit attached to a HQ will only support attacks/defence of units under that HQs current command, whereas a detached arty unit is free to support anyone. Unless you don't believe in free arty support for all your units whenever they need it (maybe as part of a ammo conservation strategy), why leave arty units attached to HQs?

What is the functional/operational difference between say an arty unit detached from it's organic boss HQ and one that is attached?

I generally am happy to have the AI call in arty from the pool of free on-call arty support I create (by detaching all arty units from HQs) to assist in all the attacks/defences going on. I do know that I then must micromanage arty ammo but this is understandable.

Cheers

Bullman

(in reply to Bullman)
Post #: 4
RE: Hello!...a few questions - 7/9/2005 9:45:10 AM   
Bullman

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 7/2/2005
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As far as the issue with reataching organic units to a HQ, I am glad you like the idea.
I guess anytime you detatch a unit from one HQ and attach it to another you will always have an issue with those HQs losing an attached unit having to replan, regardless of whether that unit returns to it's organic HQ or not.

Perhaps a HQ could be selected, and all organic units attached shown with a line trace in one colour (eg. green) and all organic units detached in another (eg. black) similar to Combat Mission, and all non-organic attached units shown further still in another colour (eg. orange).

Cheers

Bullman

< Message edited by Bullman -- 7/9/2005 9:47:22 AM >

(in reply to Bullman)
Post #: 5
RE: Hello!...a few questions - 7/9/2005 11:19:20 AM   
Grognard


Posts: 190
Joined: 6/24/2004
From: Madison, Wisconsin
Status: offline
Hello again

When you take control of any unit directly it becomes subordinate to the most senior HQ on the map and will increase orders delay if that unit exceeds the senior HQ command load capacity. It's in the manual. If your orders delay setting is realistic or painfully realistic (forum SOP) you are adding quite some time to an already long wait for your units to begin their assigned tasks as you exceed the HQ load capacity. You want to leave as many units organic as possible to minimise further delay.

What orders delay setting are you using?

Sincerely

_____________________________

Find 'em, Fix 'em, & Kill 'em

(in reply to Bullman)
Post #: 6
RE: Hello!...a few questions - 7/9/2005 6:31:48 PM   
Bullman

 

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Joined: 7/2/2005
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Thanks Grognard for pointing that out. I have gone to the manual for more info (remember reading somewhere, page no?) but Command Load is not in the index. I understand that if Command Loading exceeds Command Capacity, then that unit will face higher orders delay.

But I don't understand HOW Command Loading is determined. I have done a few tests to try and see for myself. Seems that because of orders delay, Comamnd Loading is not immediately adjusted and redistributed in some cases whyich makes determining exactly what affects what a bit more tricky in game.
eg. If any units detatch, the Boss HQs Load will be affected soon after, whereas the organic HQ Load will be affect much later,

At the start of the game, all HQs have a 0 loading. Only after you give them orders does the Loading seem to show.
And Loading doesn't seem to be equal to the number of units (which I think confused me at the start as units attached did not equal loading).

Any clarification on this?

Cheers

Bullman

(in reply to Grognard)
Post #: 7
RE: Hello!...a few questions - 7/9/2005 7:48:14 PM   
Ossian


Posts: 100
Joined: 7/7/2005
Status: offline
I'd like to ask a quick question as well, if nobody minds; Given that there is no 'syncronise attack' button I was wondering how you guys do this? How do you get the different formations you have set aside for an assault to start their attack at the same time? is it a case of simply working out command delays and distances, and then making an educated guess or is there some other way to do it? I take it there is no way to give an order and then delay it until you want the unit to carry it out?

Lol, Sorry, that was a couple of questions, I guess.


(in reply to Bullman)
Post #: 8
RE: Hello!...a few questions - 7/9/2005 8:20:04 PM   
daft

 

Posts: 355
Joined: 5/18/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ossian

I'd like to ask a quick question as well, if nobody minds; Given that there is no 'syncronise attack' button I was wondering how you guys do this? How do you get the different formations you have set aside for an assault to start their attack at the same time? is it a case of simply working out command delays and distances, and then making an educated guess or is there some other way to do it? I take it there is no way to give an order and then delay it until you want the unit to carry it out?

Lol, Sorry, that was a couple of questions, I guess.




I was just about to ask the same question. I'm about to assault a hill with a Panzer Regiment and some arty assets. I would like for one battalion to go up the center and assault frontally while the second moves around the left flank of the defender (recon elements have reported the path clear) and swing round and attack the enemy from the rear. Problem is, I have no idea how to co-ordinate it when I have to detach the second battalion from the regimental HQ. Any suggestions?

(in reply to Ossian)
Post #: 9
RE: Hello!...a few questions - 7/9/2005 8:35:02 PM   
MarkShot


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Joined: 3/29/2003
Status: offline
Folks,

Forgive me as I only have time to quickly skim the thread ...

As far as command delays for a force, I think the numbers shown in the tabs for force delays are only accurate once the entire force has been formed and orders have propagated one time. Meaning that initially you will not have accurate estimates. However, over the course of days and you have already formed your various forces/commands, then you will have this information available for planning.

As you get familiar with the game, you will develop a gut sense as to how long things take. Perhaps, in real life detailed time tables and schedules are for railroads and not combat.

In regards to synchronizing independent actions, in my experience you can try, but it is not possible. Perhaps, one should settle for a more limited timing which determines where you will hit first and then second.

For example, perhaps you want to hit the enemy unexpected in the rear or flank after having shown a weak frontal probe for a half day to mislead them. Hitting them in force in the rear may cause them to abandon their improved positions in anticipation of a frontal attack (due to the probing) to counter the rear attack. Once they have displaced and sacrificed their preparations, then you hit them frontally.

If you delegate a complex attack (multiple levels of command) to the AI, it may select multiple axis of attack and it will coordinate/synchronize its efforts.

_____________________________

Panther Games (RDOA/HTTR/COTA/BFTB) Beta Tester

(in reply to daft)
Post #: 10
RE: Hello!...a few questions - 7/9/2005 8:44:10 PM   
daft

 

Posts: 355
Joined: 5/18/2002
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Thanks Mark, looks like I will have to find other ways of dislodging the enemy from the hill. A flank approach with the whole regiment is also an option, if the approaches allow it, but I'm afraid I can't hit him from the rear since the narrow tracks through the forrest there seems inadequate for movement of a force larger than a battalion.

(in reply to MarkShot)
Post #: 11
RE: Hello!...a few questions - 7/10/2005 8:01:05 AM   
Bullman

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 7/2/2005
Status: offline
Grognard,

Forgot to mention that I have been playing with "Realistic" orders delay. Is Painfully Realistic more realistic than Realistic or just way to make the game more of a challenge?

I guess all my questioning comes down to resolving the ins and outs of detaching arty units from their organic HQ so that they are on-call for ANYONE who needs arty support.
I understand now that all these detached arty units (and any other units) now add to the Command Loading on the boss HQ (only), consequently increasing the Orders Delay for the boss HQ.

I generally do not give the boss HQ any active offensive orders.

So if I only use my boss HQ behind lines in a very passive/static/resting role basically only in "indirect-control" of all the arty and any other detached units I might have (none of them directly attached of course) and a few non-active reserve/resting units which are directly attached, would any orders delay on the boss HQ (because it's Command Load is exceeded) now filter down and apply to EVERY other unit on the map?

Cheers

Bullman

(in reply to daft)
Post #: 12
RE: Hello!...a few questions - 7/10/2005 8:22:55 AM   
Arjuna


Posts: 17790
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline
Bullman,

Any order you give directly to a unit places that unit under the command of the senior on-map boss. This increases the command load on the on-map boss and this will effect all the orders delay on all the orders you give, not just to those of the on-map boss. Having said that it is mitigates somewhat if the unit that your ordering is close to its organic superior. See page 63 of the manual.

_____________________________

Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

(in reply to Bullman)
Post #: 13
RE: Hello!...a few questions - 7/10/2005 11:26:21 AM   
Bullman

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 7/2/2005
Status: offline
Thanks for the page reference! (I knew I read it somewhere :P)

It says "When you give an order to a unit, the sender is deemed to be it's immediate superior, provided it is within effective command range. If not, it will check up the command line until it finds a superior within effective command range or it reaches the top ie. the on-map boss".

Does it matter if the next HQ up the chain of command (within command range) is itself detached from the boss HQ or it's own organic HQ and or outside command range of HQs up the chain?

In the example that follows the above paragraph int eh manual regarding the detached Bn HQ and the Bde HQ, is it ever possible for a Bn HQ to have a lower order delay if OUTSDIE it's organic Bde HQ command range?

Sorry for my persistant newbish questions but I am trying to get my head around the mechanics.

Cheers

Bullman

(in reply to Arjuna)
Post #: 14
RE: Hello!...a few questions - 7/10/2005 3:56:35 PM   
Arjuna


Posts: 17790
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline
The best orders delay a unit will ever get ( apart for the 60 minutes of orders free at scenario start ) is when it is close to its organic superior. Anything else is going to adversely affect it.

_____________________________

Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

(in reply to Bullman)
Post #: 15
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