Matrix Games

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Another option I was thinking about was to have maybe 2 types of US Infantry Divisions and 2 types of USMC divisions ... call it "early war" and "late war" ... not sure why we couldn't do this ... the main difference I was trying to capture with this was Artillery ... the small arms differences can be reflected the the "squad" data ( and upgrades there to ) correct ?

Of course the "early war" divisions should be able to upgrade during the war, but as you say, this is not possible ... so the choice comes down to giving the early war divisions more powerful guns ( 105 versus 75 and pre-war 155 HOW versus WWII 155 HOW ) too early ... or making them keep less powerful guns too long .. if we really have ot make this choice ... I'd vote for the later option .. I've seen photos of 75s and pre-war 155 in action in 1943 in the Solomons and might be able to find them soldiering on even longer ... so the period were the early war divisions have less powerful artillery might be more like 1944+ when they probably don't really need it as separate artillery units might be providing most of the firepower to be dealing with fortified Japanese.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

Starting another thread, this time (ostensibly) about Allied TOE and OOB matters. Comments or corrections of the stuff are always appreciated.
I'll begin with US organizations. Maybe some kind of sacrilege because I'm not even from the same continent...

Because there is no possibility to change unit TOE's in the game, it was necessary to choose just one TOE for every kind of unit. My choice fell to US Army TOE's as of September 1943. Of course did US units in 1941 not have the same strength as in 1943, but I think the differences lay mainly in the firepower of squads, as represented in the game. I deliberately omitted light mortars (60mm M2) and the BAR's present in rifle squads because I think that this kind of weapons should be included in the strength of rifle squads. I further think that this should be the case with the 0.30 Browning LMG's. But this would it necessary to rework the strengths of rifle squads for all nations represented in the game.

US Army Infantry Division (1943-45)

Divisional HQ
3x 57mm M1 Anti-Tank Gun, 3x 0.50cal M2HB Browning HMG

Light Field Artillery Battalion (3)
12x 105mm M1 Howitzer, 20x 0.50cal M2HB Browning HMG

Heavy Field Artillery Battalion
12x 155mm M1 Howitzer, 22x 0.50cal M2HB Browning HMG

Mechanized Reconnaissance Troop
13x M8 Greyhound Armored Car, 5x M3A1 Halftrack, 2x 0.50cal M2HB Browning HMG, 8x 0.30cal M1919A4 Browning LMG

Combat Engineer Battalion
27x Engineer Squad, 18x 0.30cal M1919A4 Browning LMG, 12x 0.50cal M2HB Browning HMG

Infantry Regiment (3)
81x Rifle Squad, 9x Engineer Squad, 6x 105mm M3 Howitzer, 18x 57mm M1 Anti-Tank Gun, 18x 81mm M1 Mortar, 35x 0.50cal M2HB Browning HMG, 42x 0.30cal LMG

Aggregate:
243x Rifle Squad, 54x Engineer Squad, 12x 155mm M1 Howitzer, 36x 105mm M1 Howitzer, 18x 105mm M3 Howitzer, 54x 57mm M1 Anti-Tank Gun, 54x 81mm M1 Mortar, 204x 0.50cal M2HB Browning HMG, 72x 0.30cal M1917A1 Browning HMG, 80x 0.30cal M1919A4 Browning LMG , 13x M8 Greyhound Armored Car, 5x M3A1 Halftrack


US Army Infantry Regiment (1943-45)

HQ Company
2x 0.50cal M2HB Browning HMG

Infantry Cannon Company
6x 105mm M3 Howitzer, 3x 0.50cal M2HB Browning HMG

Infantry Ant-Tank Company
9x 57mm ATG, 3x 0.50cal M2HB Browning HMG

Service Company
9x 0.50cal M2HB Browning HMG

Infantry Battalion (3)
27x Rifle Squad, 3x Engineer Squad, 3x 57mm M1 Anti-Tank Gun, 6x 81mm M1 Mortar, 6x 0.50cal M2HB Browning HMG, 14x 0.30cal LMG

Aggregate:
81x Rifle Squad, 9x Engineer Squad, 6x 105mm Howitzer, 18x 57mm M1 Anti-Tank Gun, 18x 81mm M1 Mortar, 35x 0.50cal M2HB Browning HMG, 24x 0.30cal M1917A1 Browning HMG, 18x 0.30cal M1919A4 Browning LMG


US-Army Infantry Battalion (1943-45)

A& P Platoon
3x Engineer Squad, 1x 0.50cal M2HB Browning HMG

AT Platoon
3x 57mm M1 Anti-Tank Gun, 1x 0.50cal M2HB Browning HMG

Heavy Weapons Company
6x 81mm M1 Mortar, 1x 0.50cal M2HB Browning HMG, 8x 0.30cal M1917A1 Browning HMG

Rifle Company (3)
9x Rifle Squad, 1x 0.50cal M2HB Browning HMG, 2x 0.30cal M1919A4 Browning LMG

Aggregate:
27x Rifle Squad, 3x Engineer Squad, 3x 57mm M1 Anti-Tank Gun, 6x 81mm M1 Mortar, 6x 0.50cal M2HB Browning HMG, 8x 0.30cal M1917A1 Browning HMG, 6x 0.30cal M1919A4 Browning LMG


US Army Tank Battalion (1943-45)

HQ Company
2x M4 Medium Tank, 3x Medium Tank (105mm Howitzer), 3x M21 Halftrack/81mm Mortar, 8x M3A1 Halftrack

Medium Tank Company (3)
17x M4 Medium Tank, 1x Medium Tank (105mm Howitzer), 1x M3A1 Halftrack

Light Tank Company
17x M5 Light Tank, 1x M3A1 Halftrack, 1x M32 ARV/81mm Mortar

Service Company
2x M32 ARV/81mm Mortar

Aggregate:
53x M4 Medium Tank, 6x Medium Tank (105mm Howitzer), 17x M5 Light Tank, 3x M21 Halftrack/81mm Mortar, 12x M3A1 Halftrack, (3x M32 ARV/81mm Mortar)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter
Your efforts are noble, but Don Bowen and I flogged this topic to death early on. It is obvious that the ToEs were "tweaked" to make the land combat system work, instead of the other way around. I'm afraid that any attempt to create units with a historical ToE will disrupt not only the combat system, but also shipping loads required to transport these units. Like you, I started to create historical ToEs for these units, but came to this realization. I have accumulated a library with 30 years worth of documentation, and started to put this information together. The most glaring error, in my opinion, is the deletion of the Marine Division's Tank Battalions. If these are included, it appears to make these units very powerful, and a pain to transport by sea, because of the system.
Also, please cite your sources. I, like many others, immediately disregard ToE and OoB posts with no refrences.

For the US Army Forces, I recommend "UNITED STATES ARMY GROUND FORCES, TABLES OF ORGANIZATION AND EQUIPMENT, WORLD WAR II" by J.J. Hays, available from the Military Press.
http://www.militarypress.co.uk

Thanks,

Brad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter
Your efforts are noble, but Don Bowen and I flogged this topic to death early on. It is obvious that the ToEs were "tweaked" to make the land combat system work, instead of the other way around. I'm afraid that any attempt to create units with a historical ToE will disrupt not only the combat system, but also shipping loads required to transport these units. Like you, I started to create historical ToEs for these units, but came to this realization. I have accumulated a library with 30 years worth of documentation, and started to put this information together. The most glaring error, in my opinion, is the deletion of the Marine Division's Tank Battalions. If these are included, it appears to make these units very powerful, and a pain to transport by sea, because of the system.
Also, please cite your sources. I, like many others, immediately disregard ToE and OoB posts with no refrences.

For the US Army Forces, I recommend "UNITED STATES ARMY GROUND FORCES, TABLES OF ORGANIZATION AND EQUIPMENT, WORLD WAR II" by J.J. Hays, available from the Military Press.
http://www.militarypress.co.uk

Thanks,

Brad

Brad

The Marine Tank Battalions were debated back and forth and back again. They did finally end up in the CHS TOEs to the Marine Division.

I also have (some of) J.J.Hays works and I also highly recommend them. I only have a few (those that were released before I retired - much too expensive for me now) but I value them greatly.

Don

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter
Your efforts are noble, but Don Bowen and I flogged this topic to death early on. It is obvious that the ToEs were "tweaked" to make the land combat system work, instead of the other way around. I'm afraid that any attempt to create units with a historical ToE will disrupt not only the combat system, but also shipping loads required to transport these units. Like you, I started to create historical ToEs for these units, but came to this realization. I have accumulated a library with 30 years worth of documentation, and started to put this information together. The most glaring error, in my opinion, is the deletion of the Marine Division's Tank Battalions. If these are included, it appears to make these units very powerful, and a pain to transport by sea, because of the system.
Also, please cite your sources. I, like many others, immediately disregard ToE and OoB posts with no refrences.

For the US Army Forces, I recommend "UNITED STATES ARMY GROUND FORCES, TABLES OF ORGANIZATION AND EQUIPMENT, WORLD WAR II" by J.J. Hays, available from the Military Press.
http://www.militarypress.co.uk

Thanks,

Brad

Brad

The Marine Tank Battalions were debated back and forth and back again. They did finally end up in the CHS TOEs to the Marine Division.

I also have (some of) J.J.Hays works and I also highly recommend them. I only have a few (those that were released before I retired - much too expensive for me now) but I value them greatly.

Don

quote:

ORIGINAL: timtom

US Army ID TOE looks good to me, and as the 1943 incarnation is usually treated as the "standard" format, the obvious choice.

I'm might interject that I'm under the impressing that US ID's retained their 37mm AT guns, partly because they didn't need the extra penetration offered by the 57mm, but primarily because the 37mm was manportable and thus of greater value in the roadless Pacific.

The M2HB was intended as a AAA weapon, although naturally effective against ground targets also. However its great weight obviously limited its usefulness on the attack.