Fighters

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Discontinued Games] >> Gary Grigsby's World at War >> Fighters

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Fighters - 5/27/2005 9:56:26 AM

RTB

Posts: 8
Joined: 8/21/2003
From: Seattle
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I cant get my fighters to do a sweep of England in prep for sealion. My Bombers can but fighters can't. Help

Post #: 1

RE: Fighters - 5/27/2005 10:13:23 AM

5cats

Posts: 291
Joined: 4/14/2005
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For reasons known only to 2X3 & Matrix, German fighters cannot cross the 23 miles of the English channel to fight the Battle Of Britian.

Furthermore, they don't even start with a point in the Fighter's Range research, so they must wait 3-4 turns to move 2 spaces. A whole year! Not that the Me-109 & Me-110 needed extensive modifications, just stick a drop tank on them and presto! range 2!

I have suggested that a range 1 fighter be allowed to fight across a Crossing Arrow (perhaps at -1) but no one else seems too concerned that the Battle of Britian is impossible in GGWaW...

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Post #: 2

RE: Fighters - 5/27/2005 12:00:20 PM

Drax Kramer

Posts: 156
Joined: 9/13/2004
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Since historically German fighters had extremely limited time they could spend above Britain, I have no problem with their range in 1940.

What I do have problem with is that German fighters have the very same range in 1942 scenario as well.

Drax

(in reply to 5cats)

Post #: 3

RE: Fighters - 5/27/2005 12:42:10 PM

a511

Posts: 518
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Hong Kong
Status: offline

well, put it this way, if u dont research on fighter range, it will still be 1 in 42.
by allocating resources on the fighter range research, we are doing better than Hitler who, either didnt order to do such research or didnt push hard enough so that the Nazi scientists just failed him.

(in reply to Drax Kramer)

Post #: 4

RE: Fighters - 5/27/2005 2:24:10 PM

woody75

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Joined: 5/20/2005
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I must agree with 5cats on this. I dont see any reason why german fighters shouldnt be allowed to fly over the english channel. Without ME109s running escort the luffewaffe bombers would have been utterly decimated during the battle of britain as they had next to no chance against attacking spitfires and hurricanes.

If you do allow german fighters to cross the channel then you would need to re balance things a little. Maybe you could give the german fighters a -1 to evasion due to the extremely limited combat time they had before they had to turn back. There was alot of instances when spits and hurricanes chased ME109/110s that had no choice but to withdraw due to lack of fuel that then because easy prey

Also another thing - is there any reason why german fighters start off with 1 evasion higher than WA fighters?? Its certainly true that 109s could out perform hurricanes but the spitfire was easily its equal. True, for every 2 active hurricane squadrons during the battle of britain there was only 1 spit squadron, but you must also remember there was large amount of 110s also flying escort that were totally outclassed by british fighters. I just feel the evasion bonus the german fighters have is undeserved

(in reply to a511)

Post #: 5

RE: Fighters - 5/27/2005 9:58:57 PM

5cats

Posts: 291
Joined: 4/14/2005
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It was Georing who thought Fighters should carry small bombs instead of Fuel Tanks :(
I'd rant about how Georing single handedly won the war, for the Allies, but it would easily run to several pages :P
Anyhow, even starting with 1 pip in research would be better than the current situation. At least you'd have an option, eh?

(in reply to woody75)

Post #: 6

RE: Fighters - 5/28/2005 3:33:01 AM

rocksk

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Joined: 5/21/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 5cats

so they must wait 3-4 turns to move 2 spaces. A whole year! Not that the Me-109 & Me-110 needed extensive modifications,

Range 1 is good.

Me-109 had only 5 minute fighting time over england. How you want to model that?

< Message edited by rocksk -- 5/28/2005 3:38:48 AM >

(in reply to 5cats)

Post #: 7

RE: Fighters - 5/28/2005 5:16:05 AM

5cats

Posts: 291
Joined: 4/14/2005
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Well, that was 5 minutes over London, and without any drop tanks for added range. With the tanks they'd have 45 minutes over London, about 15 minutes longer than the Spitfires :P
I'm saying that the only modification was simple drop tanks, not a new model or new aircraft, and that the Battle of Britian was a historic fact, not a "what if" scenario. That in GGWaW, a realistic (not overly so, but mostly) game, you cannot possibly re-create the BoB in the real-life time frame.
To model that, give range 1 fighters the ability to cross a narrows, but with a combat penalty, -1 on evasion, -1 on the dice roll. Or something like that. Its a narrows for cryin out loud!
Furthermore: Without the fighter escort, attacking England is virtually impossible, making the invasion of Scotland the only chance open. Highly un-realistic, eh? But that's what the German player is forced to do, just because his fighters are too short ranged. Not that I mind invading Scotland, it's just that's the ONLY option open.

(in reply to rocksk)

Post #: 8

RE: Fighters - 5/28/2005 5:38:50 AM

rocksk

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Joined: 5/21/2005
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"5 minutes over London, and without any drop tanks for added range"

Did they actually add drop tanks?

< Message edited by rocksk -- 5/28/2005 11:01:02 AM >

(in reply to 5cats)

Post #: 9

RE: Fighters - 5/28/2005 8:40:10 AM

eMonticello

Posts: 525
Joined: 3/15/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rocksk

"5 minutes over London, and without any drop tanks for added range"

Did they actual add drop tanks?

No, the Luftwaffe flew E-4s during BOB. The drop tanks were introduced with the E-7.

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Post #: 10

RE: Fighters - 5/28/2005 10:13:46 AM

Drax Kramer

Posts: 156
Joined: 9/13/2004
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

In game terms, Battle of Britain took place in Summer 1940 turn and has been fought between Allies fighters flying CAP over the Channel and German fighters flying from Western France. That's it. By Autumn 1940, Germans gave up the Sea Lion and switched to night bombing. Now, if the game could invent some way to simulate the night bombing where bombers would attack with reduced strength against less effective defenses, that would be nice.

As I wrote before, I don't understand why German fighter range is still "1" in later scenarios where some sort of development, as well as introduction of Fw 190 already took place.

Drax

(in reply to eMonticello)

Post #: 11

RE: Fighters - 5/28/2005 11:04:06 AM

rocksk

Posts: 17
Joined: 5/21/2005
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Fw 190 That is my pet fighter. Why is the model use ME-109.

(in reply to Drax Kramer)

Post #: 12

RE: Fighters - 5/28/2005 3:47:50 PM

Skipster

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Joined: 4/16/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Drax Kramer

As I wrote before, I don't understand why German fighter range is still "1" in later scenarios where some sort of development, as well as introduction of Fw 190 already took place.

Drax

I would assume by the way things work that when you are researching range for aircraft, you are only researching more fuel-efficient designs or designs that can hold more internal fuel.

The FW190A series (until D-series in I think Dec '43) and BF109 (all models) never improved the range historically through design. All had a clean range of between 400-500 miles

(in reply to Drax Kramer)

Post #: 13

RE: Fighters - 5/29/2005 8:24:11 PM

aletoledo

Posts: 827
Joined: 2/4/2005
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quote:

As I wrote before, I don't understand why German fighter range is still "1" in later scenarios where some sort of development, as well as introduction of Fw 190 already took place.

I assume you mean the scenarios other than 1940. I never checked, but if those scenarios don't have some form of range research, I would agree that this should have been done.

I don't mind the range 1, I agree with Drax on the range because the fighting was heaviest over the channel, which if england flys cap, then germans fighters and reach the fight then.

(in reply to Skipster)

Post #: 14

RE: Fighters - 5/30/2005 12:48:21 AM

QBeam

Posts: 48
Joined: 4/2/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: woody75

Also another thing - is there any reason why german fighters start off with 1 evasion higher than WA fighters?? Its certainly true that 109s could out perform hurricanes but the spitfire was easily its equal. True, for every 2 active hurricane squadrons during the battle of britain there was only 1 spit squadron, but you must also remember there was large amount of 110s also flying escort that were totally outclassed by british fighters. I just feel the evasion bonus the german fighters have is undeserved

I disagree--the early Spitfires were at a serious disadvantage against Bf-109s. It is a common misconception that they were equal because the kill ratio between them was pretty close to 1-1. The trouble is, that statistic is distorted by the fact that the Bf-109s were fighting at the edge of their bingo fuel, and often escorting bombers. Also, the later model Spitfires closed the gap with the Bf-109s.

The general idea of having fighters operate at extended range, at a cost of evasion, is a reasonable one, and would help a more historical Battle of Britain.

BUT! From what I've seen, it's already far, far too easy to invade Britain. Adding this rule would make it almost a no-brainer. The British OOB would have to be improved to make it harder. The German invasions of Scotland are especially ridiculous, since Germany would have been on a shoe-string trying just to cross 8 miles of channel. I could go on, but the absurd German (and Italian) amphibious capability is a subject for another thread...

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(in reply to woody75)

Post #: 15

RE: Fighters - 5/30/2005 5:43:40 AM

Harrybanana

Posts: 761
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline

The problem wtih adding 1 to the range (actually called "speed") of the German fighters is that then they would not only be able to reach England, but also reach Scotland. The way the game is designed (rightly or wrongly) the ranges to England and Scotland are identical. I agree it is already too easy to invade Scotland.

(in reply to QBeam)

Post #: 16

RE: Fighters - 5/31/2005 6:29:36 PM

MarcelJV

Posts: 343
Joined: 5/9/2005
From: Mohrsville, PA
Status: offline

My reading says the difference between the Spitefire and the 109 is:
The spitefire could out manuever, ie out turn a 109.
Where the 109 had more speed and could out run the spitefire. Big advantage when diving.

This created tactics, as the British would like to dog fight, they had the advantage. The Germans liked to do hit and run, they had the advantage in diving speed, firing and then running.

Due to the restrictions in escort duty the 109s could not always use thier tactics and would be force to fight a dogfight, not a problem with a Hurricane, but verses a Spitefire it was a bad move.

This accounts for the ratio of casualties being favourable to the British in the long run.

Also Drop tanks were not in use in 40 and it was not until 43 that they were in wide use in Europe.

quote:

ORIGINAL: QBeam

quote:

ORIGINAL: woody75

Also another thing - is there any reason why german fighters start off with 1 evasion higher than WA fighters?? Its certainly true that 109s could out perform hurricanes but the spitfire was easily its equal. True, for every 2 active hurricane squadrons during the battle of britain there was only 1 spit squadron, but you must also remember there was large amount of 110s also flying escort that were totally outclassed by british fighters. I just feel the evasion bonus the german fighters have is undeserved

I disagree--the early Spitfires were at a serious disadvantage against Bf-109s. It is a common misconception that they were equal because the kill ratio between them was pretty close to 1-1. The trouble is, that statistic is distorted by the fact that the Bf-109s were fighting at the edge of their bingo fuel, and often escorting bombers. Also, the later model Spitfires closed the gap with the Bf-109s.

The general idea of having fighters operate at extended range, at a cost of evasion, is a reasonable one, and would help a more historical Battle of Britain.

BUT! From what I've seen, it's already far, far too easy to invade Britain. Adding this rule would make it almost a no-brainer. The British OOB would have to be improved to make it harder. The German invasions of Scotland are especially ridiculous, since Germany would have been on a shoe-string trying just to cross 8 miles of channel. I could go on, but the absurd German (and Italian) amphibious capability is a subject for another thread...