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Son of a Bitch, 2nd Class

 
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Son of a Bitch, 2nd Class - 5/14/2005 4:51:51 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 39924
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Conventional wisdom has it that the Helldiver was somewhat inferior to the Dauntless which it was supposed to replace. This leads to my two questions:

1): To what extent do people replace Dauntless with Helldiver in the game (this assumes Player Def Upgraded turned "On" as I have)?

2): Does anybody know how much the Dauntless continued in use after the introduction of the Helldiver? I have an idea that maybe the Marines would keep their Dauntlesses in service (because they like to do things their own way ) but I have nothing concrete to back it up...

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RE: Son of a Bitch, 2nd Class - 5/14/2005 5:49:25 PM   
Brady


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The SBD was used by the Navy for as long as posable, the Navy did as you say Dislike the Helldiver and it was indead a POS in many way's. I recently read Pill "Beads" Pop's Memoir, in which he mentions the SBD"S on the Bunker Hill (He was in VF-17, then Did Another tour on the Bunker Hill later in the war), he said that he was always glad he never had to fly them, he watched a few fall off the end of the flight deck on T/O and never make it up, they went right into the sea, their reputation was horiable.

SBD's were used by New Zeland later in the war, and by Free French Forces in Europe as well late in the war, amongst others.




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RE: Son of a Bitch, 2nd Class - 5/14/2005 8:28:37 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 39924
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		It was very difficult to land, as well, what with its loooooong nose and high main landing gear.

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RE: Son of a Bitch, 2nd Class - 5/14/2005 9:14:26 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline 		The "Helldiver" was a superior A/C to the "Dauntless" in almost every normal respect...,
but it was a bitch to fly. Crews preferred the older Dauntless which was a "sweet
handling" plane. An example of "poor market research".

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Post #: 4
RE: Son of a Bitch, 2nd Class - 5/14/2005 9:46:01 PM   
Kadrin


Posts: 182
Joined: 5/5/2005
From: Orange, California
Status: offline 		The Helldiver meets or beats the Dauntless in every category except for maneuverability in the game. So the question is do you want to keep that maneuverability?

And Helldiver's could not take off from CVE's in real life, not sure about CVL's...

< Message edited by Kadrin -- 5/14/2005 9:47:17 PM >

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RE: Son of a Bitch, 2nd Class - 5/16/2005 4:45:05 AM   
Hornblower


Posts: 1359
Joined: 9/10/2003
From: New York'er relocated to Chicago
Status: offline 		Gamewise the Helldiver is better, real life is a diffrent story.

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RE: Son of a Bitch, 2nd Class - 5/17/2005 8:12:54 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 6203
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From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Well, the helldiver was superior to the dauntless in most aspects. Problem was that the dauntless was such an easy forgiving plane to fly. Whenever you have a massed produced pilot training system that is inevitable in wartime, and an expanding airforce-the bulk of your pilots are going to be relatively inexperienced. This makes a good argument for simple planes that are forgiving to young inexperience pilots. The B26-B25 debate is the same. No question that the B26 was a fast hot airplane and better than the 25 in many ways. However, the B25 was loved by pilots because it was a gentle plane to fly and the average pilot felt that he had a better chance to come home in a B25.

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RE: Son of a Bitch, 2nd Class - 5/17/2005 8:15:50 PM   
Terminus


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From: Denmark
Status: offline 		I read somewhere that in order to dispel the B-26's "Widowmaker" reputation, Jimmy Doolitle took it on a tour of all Marauder airfields in England, doing aerobatics, flying on one engine, and what have you... Don't know if it worked.

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RE: Son of a Bitch, 2nd Class - 5/17/2005 8:41:00 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I read somewhere that in order to dispel the B-26's "Widowmaker" reputation, Jimmy Doolitle took it on a tour of all Marauder airfields in England, doing aerobatics, flying on one engine, and what have you... Don't know if it worked.



Still has the Widowmaker rep, i think...

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RE: Son of a Bitch, 2nd Class - 5/17/2005 9:35:47 PM   
SpitfireIX


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From: Fort Wayne IN USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I read somewhere that in order to dispel the B-26's "Widowmaker" reputation, Jimmy Doolitle took it on a tour of all Marauder airfields in England, doing aerobatics, flying on one engine, and what have you... Don't know if it worked.


Oh, yes, it definitely worked. See here for the whole story.

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Post #: 10
RE: Son of a Bitch, 2nd Class - 5/17/2005 9:51:34 PM   
Capt Cliff


Posts: 1587
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		I worked with a gentleman who flew off the Saratoga in WWII. He flew both the SBD and the SB2C and according to him the SB2C was a poor dive bombing plateform. The airplane was too heavy for the dive brakes or the dive brakes were not big enough. He said with the SBD you could really line up on your targer and had time to put the pickle in the middle. In the SB2C you were pressed for time to get the job done (she fell like a ton of bricks), sort of like a one armed paper hanger hangin wallpaper in a wind storm, you were really busy flying the SB2C where as the SBD flew itself (the sweet handling charactoristics). They did a lot of glide bombing with the SB2C.

By the way Doolittle did his B-26 aerobatic's stateside, not in England. His best stunt was to feather one of his engines on takeoff then turn into the dead engine, an absolute No-No, but he pulled it off. He also wanted to take the B-26 on his Tokyo raid but knew the average pilot could take her off of a carrier deck.

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RE: Son of a Bitch, 2nd Class - 5/17/2005 10:42:29 PM   
Oznoyng

 

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From: Mars
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady
The SBD was used by the Navy for as long as posable, the Navy did as you say Dislike the Helldiver and it was indead a POS in many way's. I recently read Pill "Beads" Pop's Memoir, in which he mentions the SBD"S on the Bunker Hill (He was in VF-17, then Did Another tour on the Bunker Hill later in the war), he said that he was always glad he never had to fly them, he watched a few fall off the end of the flight deck on T/O and never make it up, they went right into the sea, their reputation was horiable.

SBD's were used by New Zeland later in the war, and by Free French Forces in Europe as well late in the war, amongst others.

Hey, sounds ike they killed a few froggies. Can't be all bad.

(in reply to Brady)
Post #: 12
RE: Son of a Bitch, 2nd Class - 5/17/2005 10:50:24 PM   
Brausepaul


Posts: 432
Joined: 8/11/2004
From: Braunschweig, Deutschland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady
The SBD was used by the Navy for as long as posable, the Navy did as you say Dislike the Helldiver and it was indead a POS in many way's. I recently read Pill "Beads" Pop's Memoir, in which he mentions the SBD"S on the Bunker Hill (He was in VF-17, then Did Another tour on the Bunker Hill later in the war), he said that he was always glad he never had to fly them, he watched a few fall off the end of the flight deck on T/O and never make it up, they went right into the sea, their reputation was horiable.

SBD's were used by New Zeland later in the war, and by Free French Forces in Europe as well late in the war, amongst others.

Hey, sounds ike they killed a few froggies. Can't be all bad.


What a dumb statement.

(in reply to Oznoyng)
Post #: 13
RE: Son of a Bitch, 2nd Class - 5/18/2005 5:32:13 AM   
SpitfireIX


Posts: 263
Joined: 1/9/2003
From: Fort Wayne IN USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff

By the way Doolittle did his B-26 aerobatic's stateside, not in England. His best stunt was to feather one of his engines on takeoff then turn into the dead engine, an absolute No-No, but he pulled it off. He also wanted to take the B-26 on his Tokyo raid but knew the average pilot could take her off of a carrier deck.


Actually, if you read the excerpts from Doolittle's autobiography I linked above, you'll see he did it twice--in the US, right after Pearl Harbor, and then again in Britain about a year later. Also, the issue with using the B-26 for the Doolittle raid wasn't piloting skill required to take off--because of the Marauder's very high wing loading, its takeoff speed was impossibly high for it to be launched from a carrier--even Doolittle himself couldn't have done it.

_____________________________

"I know Japanese. He is very bad. And tricky. But we Americans too smart. We catch him and give him hell."

--Benny Sablan, crewman, USS Enterprise 12/7/41

(in reply to Capt Cliff)
Post #: 14
RE: Son of a Bitch, 2nd Class - 5/18/2005 6:09:37 AM   
Beezle


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Status: offline 		Phooey ("Pfui" to those of you of Deutsch persuasion). I thought this was another of those MacArthur bashing threads.

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RE: Son of a Bitch, 2nd Class - 5/18/2005 7:45:48 PM   
pbear

 

Posts: 1692
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Houston, TX, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpitfireIX


quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff

By the way Doolittle did his B-26 aerobatic's stateside, not in England. His best stunt was to feather one of his engines on takeoff then turn into the dead engine, an absolute No-No, but he pulled it off. He also wanted to take the B-26 on his Tokyo raid but knew the average pilot could take her off of a carrier deck.


Actually, if you read the excerpts from Doolittle's autobiography I linked above, you'll see he did it twice--in the US, right after Pearl Harbor, and then again in Britain about a year later. Also, the issue with using the B-26 for the Doolittle raid wasn't piloting skill required to take off--because of the Marauder's very high wing loading, its takeoff speed was impossibly high for it to be launched from a carrier--even Doolittle himself couldn't have done it.

He also did the same in the SW Pacific for Kennedy's boys. The A model was also know as "The Flying Prostitute" because it has 'no visable means of support" refering to the short wing span. The B's and later had a longer wing making the wing loading lower. However empty and in a shallow dive a Zero could not catch the B-26. So going downhill from Rabaul was much safer in a B-26. Great Airplane. Bombers are not suppose to be "hot aircraft".

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Post #: 16
RE: Son of a Bitch, 2nd Class - 5/18/2005 9:43:08 PM   
Capt Cliff


Posts: 1587
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		Spitfire IX, it has to do with Vmc or velocity minimum control and NOT wing loading. There is also V2 speed that allows for manueverability. The B-26 Vmc was higher than the B-25 which is a function of airfoil shape in concert with wing loading. There were to many variables like speed of the carrier and headwind that had to be maximized for the B-26 to work. I have no doubt Gen. Doolittle could have taken a B-26 off the Hornet, but the B-25 gave everyone a higher margin of safety than the B-26 would have.

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RE: Son of a Bitch, 2nd Class - 5/19/2005 5:58:56 AM   
SpitfireIX


Posts: 263
Joined: 1/9/2003
From: Fort Wayne IN USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pbear


The A model was also know as "The Flying Prostitute" because it has 'no visable means of support" refering to the short wing span. The B's and later had a longer wing making the wing loading lower. However empty and in a shallow dive a Zero could not catch the B-26. So going downhill from Rabaul was much safer in a B-26. Great Airplane. Bombers are not suppose to be "hot aircraft".



Actually, the benefits of the new wing were somewhat offset by an increase in gross weight, due to additional equipment. See here.

_____________________________

"I know Japanese. He is very bad. And tricky. But we Americans too smart. We catch him and give him hell."

--Benny Sablan, crewman, USS Enterprise 12/7/41

(in reply to pbear)
Post #: 18
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