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Campaign 1939 Version03

 
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Campaign 1939 Version03 - 4/14/2005 10:59:40 AM   
sveint


Posts: 1376
Joined: 1/19/2001
Status: offline 		Get it here: http://www.svein.org/campaign39v03.zip (21kb, right click and save as)

README:

GG WaW CAMPAIGN 1939 v03

"I believe it is peace in our time."
With Germany appeased and Japan busy
with the China Incident the world
seems to have avoided any chance
of a new Great War...


Introduction

This is a modified campagin for Gray Grisby's World at War. I wanted a scenario that started earlier than the standard ones and gave a broader range of strategic options, so I sat down an made this.


Installation

Unzip the file (campaign39v03.zip) into your "dat" folder.
A typical location would be:
C:\Matrix Games\Gary Grigsby's World At War\dat

The mod should in no way interfere with your standard scenarios, but then again just to be sure there is the standard disclaimer: Use this mod at your own risk. (Your wife might not like it... 'MORE time spent on that !@#$%^ game?!').


New in v03

- Reworked ALL nations' forces (more historical, more balancing)
- MAJOR change: Militia is now considered a Garrison (cannot change name for one scenario sadly)
- MAJOR change: China is now much more historical and no longer a pushover


New in v02

- All forts removed (and changed to rough terrain)
- Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad, Western and Eastern Germany can no longer be blitzed (rough terrain)
- Resource moved from Sweden to Norway to encourge a historical German invasion
- Heavy Fleet air attack reduced, Carrier Air attack increased
- Heavy Air ground attack reduced, air attack increased
- Germany has been given true heavy bombers with armor
- Carrier Air units are now truely elite
- Armor evasion reduced
- Airborne evasion increased
- Railroads, factories and resources no longer self-destruct when bombed
- Italy can now produce Flak and Artillery
- Romania can now produce Transports


What's changed?

Too much to detail but here is a short overview:
- Start date is Summer 1939, forces have been adjusted to approximate historical sizes
- The Allies cannot attack Germany until it breaks the peace
- Italy is neutral until attacked or until Paris falls
- A few minor map changes have been made
- Vichy France has been made more historical
- Minor nations now have their historical garrisons


A note on the AI

The German AI does NOT understand this mod. Sorry.


Feedback

Post on www.matrixgames.com forums.

< Message edited by sveint -- 5/4/2005 11:42:56 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Campaign 1939 v01 - 4/14/2005 12:47:54 PM   
PDiFolco

 

Posts: 1126
Joined: 10/11/2004
Status: offline 		Looks nice, a pity that AI can't handle it ...

But as the war started on Sep 1, 1939 I'd have started the scen on Fall39 turn rather than Summer. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in WaW the seasons go Winter (Jan-Mar) then Spring (Apr-Jun), Summer (Jul-Sep) and Fall (Oct-Dec).

(in reply to sveint)
Post #: 2
RE: Campaign 1939 v01 - 4/14/2005 1:05:02 PM   
sveint


Posts: 1376
Joined: 1/19/2001
Status: offline 		Originally I wanted to start it in Fall 1939 but that setup has Germany attacking Poland. I really wanted to give Germany one turn to organize his forces... now he is free to go north (scandinavia), east(poland), west(netherlands) or even south(yugoslavia). Of course his military strength is still limited.

In the standard campaign the first turn is too much routine... take France,Denmark. No options. Far too late to plan for a Sealion either. This campaign actually gives you the strategic option to build what you need for your plans.

(in reply to PDiFolco)
Post #: 3
RE: Campaign 1939 v01 - 4/22/2005 8:16:49 AM   
sveint


Posts: 1376
Joined: 1/19/2001
Status: offline 		New in v2

- All forts removed (and changed to rough terrain)
- Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad, Western and Eastern Germany can no longer be blitzed (rough terrain)
- Resource moved from Sweden to Norway to encourge a historical German invasion
- Heavy Fleet air attack reduced, Carrier Air attack increased
- Heavy Air ground attack reduced, air attack increased
- Germany has been given true heavy bombers with armor
- Carrier Air units are now truely elite
- Armor evasion reduced
- Airborne evasion increased
- Railroads, factories and resources no longer self-destruct when bombed
- Italy can now produce Flak and Artillery
- Romania can now produce Transports

(in reply to sveint)
Post #: 4
RE: Campaign 1939 v01 - 4/22/2005 9:35:27 AM   
metto_x

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 4/6/2004
Status: offline
quote:

- Germany has been given true heavy bombers with armor

If this mod wants to be historical, then that is wrong. Germany didn't have any four engined bombers until late 1942, and that model had serious faults and was pulled back from the front quickly. Germany used a four engined plane(Fw-200 I think) in naval bombing missions but not against ground targets.

(in reply to sveint)
Post #: 5
RE: Campaign 1939 v01 - 4/22/2005 12:26:35 PM   
sveint


Posts: 1376
Joined: 1/19/2001
Status: offline
quote:

If this mod wants to be historical, then that is wrong. Germany didn't have any four engined bombers until late 1942, and that model had serious faults and was pulled back from the front quickly. Germany used a four engined plane(Fw-200 I think) in naval bombing missions but not against ground targets.


I know they didn't have/use them historically. But the player gets to chose what to research in this game.... it's my opinion that the Germans would have been capable of developing heavy bombers if they set their minds to it. At the same time the Japanese did NOT have the capability to ever produce heavy bombers with any sort of armor.

Standard: No point ever building heavy bombers as Germany.
My mod: Heavy bombers are now an option for Germany IF the research is spent on them.

(in reply to metto_x)
Post #: 6
RE: Campaign 1939 v01 - 4/22/2005 5:33:09 PM   
Damien Thorn

 

Posts: 1107
Joined: 7/24/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint
Japanese did NOT have the capability to ever produce heavy bombers with any sort of armor.



Why not? There no high tech secret to slapping on steel plates. Japan chose not to use heavy armor because they wanted greater range (a nice thing to have in the Pacific). It was a choice they made just like Germany.

I have not had a chance to actually play a game of WaW yet because mine keeps crashing but am I to understand that there are inherant differenced in the heavy bombers of different nationalities in this game? I thought units in WaW just had different starting values for different attributes and they could all be researched up. Is that not the case?


(in reply to sveint)
Post #: 7
RE: Campaign 1939 v01 - 4/22/2005 9:22:14 PM   
sveint


Posts: 1376
Joined: 1/19/2001
Status: offline
quote:

I thought units in WaW just had different starting values for different attributes


This is the idea, yes. Unfortunately "armor" cannot be researched so one has to set it before a game starts. Hence the problem.

I'd love more input... the problem I had was that Heavy Bombers were useless to build/research for Germany. Japan has very few resources to commit to reserach, but their heavy bombers already start with decent torpedo ratings so they are worth using (if not building) anyway.

(in reply to Damien Thorn)
Post #: 8
RE: Campaign 1939 v01 - 4/23/2005 12:43:43 AM   
PDiFolco

 

Posts: 1126
Joined: 10/11/2004
Status: offline 		Hum, wouldn't it be possible to have a 1939 scenario without stats changes/mods, and a mod pack to get the stats change to all scenarios ?
Thus everyone would be happy, the mod-lovers and mod-haters

(in reply to sveint)
Post #: 9
RE: Campaign 1939 v01 - 4/23/2005 2:23:10 AM   
Traveler

 

Posts: 114
Joined: 3/31/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks for doing this mod.

Just as with the 1940 game, I still think the TD_EVADE level for German subs is too low. I unfroze England on the second turn. The ai then sank/damaged all my atlantic subs (4 subs in two areas) on it's first turn and didn't even suffer a damaged light.

In a different game, Russia ran thae attack and deffence values for mech units up to 9 by summer 41. This seems more a problem of research being linked straight to production. I think the whole research system should have been thought out better.

(in reply to PDiFolco)
Post #: 10
RE: Campaign 1939 v01 - 4/23/2005 2:53:34 AM   
sveint


Posts: 1376
Joined: 1/19/2001
Status: offline
quote:

Hum, wouldn't it be possible to have a 1939 scenario without stats changes/mods, and a mod pack to get the stats change to all scenarios ?


Yes that would easily be possible. I know there are going to be some major changes in the next patch, so I'll wait until then.

quote:

I still think the TD_EVADE level for German subs is too low


German subs work well but only if you invest in evasion research. This is sort of historical, as early in the war the German subs weren't all that effective. Next game, sink transports and head back to France; don't attack enemy combat fleets until you've researched evasion.

quote:

Russia ran thae attack and deffence values for mech units up to 9


I reduced evasion of armor exactly because of this. Germany, Russia, Allies could all get invincible tanks in the endgame.

(in reply to Traveler)
Post #: 11
RE: Campaign 1939 v01 - 4/27/2005 1:19:22 PM   
metto_x

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 4/6/2004
Status: offline 		I know they didn't have/use them historically. But the player gets to chose what to research in this game.... it's my opinion that the Germans would have been capable of developing heavy bombers if they set their minds to it.

Standard: No point ever building heavy bombers as Germany.
My mod: Heavy bombers are now an option for Germany IF the research is spent on them.
[/quote]

Very interesting read on the subject is a free online book "The rise and fall of the Luftwaffe". You can read from there, that Göring had ordered a 4 engined bomber in 1938(!), but at that time horrifically corrupt Udet was appointed to lead German aircraft design and industry. Result: not one new model came out and aircraft production kept dropping, until Udet's suicide in November 1941. So Germany really invested research to get a heavy bomber, but Udet ordered so many changes in the 4 engined bomber(for example, he wanted it to be able to divebomb!), that after his death, when others tried to fix the problems with the 4 engined bomber, they noted that the very basic engine and airframe design was faulty, and finally scrapped the project in 1943.

(in reply to sveint)
Post #: 12
RE: Campaign 1939 v01 - 4/27/2005 4:25:11 PM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11472
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline 		How can that be? Research is always predictable!


sveint - I'm gone to Japan for about 10 dyas, when i get back I'll give this another try!

(in reply to metto_x)
Post #: 13
RE: Campaign 1939 v01 - 4/27/2005 9:53:04 PM   
sveint


Posts: 1376
Joined: 1/19/2001
Status: offline 		Japan sounds fun, enjoy!

I have a list of more things I want to add/change, but as stated I am going to wait for the next patch to see what sort of changes there are.

(in reply to Paul Vebber)
Post #: 14
RE: Campaign 1939 v01 - 4/27/2005 9:55:21 PM   
sveint


Posts: 1376
Joined: 1/19/2001
Status: offline 		metto_x,

Thanks for that info on Luftwaffe research; very interesting! I'd never heard of it Udet before.

(in reply to sveint)
Post #: 15
RE: Campaign 1939 v01 - 4/28/2005 11:13:47 AM   
metto_x

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 4/6/2004
Status: offline 		http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/Milch/

There you find the free online book, actually a biography of Erhard Milch, a man who created the Luftwaffe and was one of the most important men in Germany's war effort, although few know about him.

There are also other free online WW2 books in the site from the same author, I'd also recommend "Trail of the Fox"- a Rommel's biography. Certainly changes the way you think about Rommel and DAK!

(in reply to sveint)
Post #: 16
RE: Campaign 1939 v01 - 4/29/2005 10:54:48 PM   
Glabro

 

Posts: 39
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline 		Woah! You did this, Sveint? Dang....now I´m really sorry we were at odds a bit. But luckily all is well again.

Thanks. Will dig into it! You saved me a lot of work.

Oh, I´m sure you won´t mind if I add some of my own modifications (messing about with the forces a bit, adding Tobruk and such and such) and use that to play PBEM?



< Message edited by Glabro -- 4/29/2005 11:28:24 PM >

(in reply to metto_x)
Post #: 17
RE: Campaign 1939 v01 - 4/30/2005 12:45:44 AM   
sveint


Posts: 1376
Joined: 1/19/2001
Status: offline 		Feel free to use it any way you want; I'd be curious to see any changes you make though, maybe I could incorporate them.

My work is on hold until next patch though.

(in reply to Glabro)
Post #: 18
RE: Campaign 1939 v01 - 4/30/2005 2:16:06 AM   
Glabro

 

Posts: 39
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline 		All right, I´ll try to document my changes.

(in reply to sveint)
Post #: 19
RE: Campaign 1939 v01 - 5/1/2005 12:25:26 AM   
eMonticello


Posts: 525
Joined: 3/15/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint
metto_x,

Thanks for that info on Luftwaffe research; very interesting! I'd never heard of it Udet before.

Milch's version of history by David Irving. I'll take that with a pound of salt, please.

_____________________________


Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example. -- Pudd'nhead Wilson

(in reply to sveint)
Post #: 20
RE: Campaign 1939 v01 - 5/1/2005 3:30:37 AM   
Glabro

 

Posts: 39
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline 		Hm. Now, I need all the 1939 OOB sites I can find....well, Dr. Niehorster´s is a good start....

(in reply to eMonticello)
Post #: 21
RE: Campaign 1939 v01 - 5/1/2005 7:20:37 AM   
sveint


Posts: 1376
Joined: 1/19/2001
Status: offline 		Heh, Glabro want to collaborate on this? Instead of doing the same thing twice I mean.

(in reply to Glabro)
Post #: 22
RE: Campaign 1939 v01 - 5/2/2005 1:34:48 AM   
Glabro

 

Posts: 39
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline 		Hm. Sure, why not?

I´m just about to start looking at the OOBs. Perhaps, if you´d like, you could focus on Japan and the Western Allies (Inc. the English and the French, naturally), while I dig into Germany and Russia?

Edit:
Just finished with the Germans. Your work was actually quite well representative - good job.
I did a lot of counting the divisions - and as a result, the Germans have been beefed up a bit. The main points being including all the second rate units, including the border guard, as militia, beefing up the submarine strength in a major way - Germany actually did field seven U-Boat flotillas at the start of the war, although one of them was a training fleet, and adding a bit to the strength of the Luftwaffe.

Okays, next up - the U.S.S.R. The only material I have on it is, of course, from August 22nd, 1941. However, Soviet military production was extremely slow before the war, and they only went from 194 divisions to 200 in 1940 to 220 in 1941....A difference of less than ten units in the game´s scale for all production between 1939 and 1941! (let´s assume, in our case, from summer ´39 to summer ´41). So....the Soviet Union could start with much larger forces than they do right now, but their production could be lower somehow....? Hm, I wonder if factory multipliers need to be integers? Would 1.5 do?

< Message edited by Glabro -- 5/2/2005 4:00:11 AM >

(in reply to sveint)
Post #: 23
RE: Campaign 1939 v01 - 5/2/2005 8:57:16 AM   
Drax Kramer

 

Posts: 156
Joined: 9/13/2004
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Glabro

I did a lot of counting the divisions - and as a result, the Germans have been beefed up a bit. The main points being including all the second rate units, including the border guard, as militia, beefing up the submarine strength in a major way - Germany actually did field seven U-Boat flotillas at the start of the war, although one of them was a training fleet, and adding a bit to the strength of the Luftwaffe.


Germany started the war with 57 submarines in commission (32 of them were coastal types, 18 were standard VII type, 7 long range IX).

In comparison, on May 1st, 1940 Germany had only 48 submarines in commission (29 coastal, 13 medium, 6 long range).

On June 1st, 1941, Germany had 139 submarines in commission (43 coastal mostly employed as school boats, 73 medium range, 23 long range). Note that at least a third of commissioned submarines (those not employed as schoold boats) were in training before becoming operational.

On May 1st, 1942, Germany had 302 submarines in commission.

Finally, on July 1st, 1943 Germany had 426 submarines in commission.

It is obvious from these figures that Germany needs no "beefing up" for 1939 scenario.

What needs to be beefed up is Italian submarine arm. Italians started the war in June 1940 with more than 100 operational submarines, a few of them based in Indian Ocean.


Drax


(in reply to Glabro)
Post #: 24
RE: Campaign 1939 v01 - 5/2/2005 1:10:10 PM   
Glabro

 

Posts: 39
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline 		Aha, Drax, thanks for the info. I wasn´t sure about how many subs each sub unit in the game represents. So, those 58 subs would be equal to one unit in the game?

I must admit my relative lack of knowledge on naval matters. If 10 or so armoured ships are enough to justify a heavy fleet unit, then is 60 subs about right for one sub unit?

Edit - wait a sec, by beefing up for the ´39 scenario, do you mean compared to the spring ´40 scenario? When I said "beefing up" I meant that in the current form of the ´39 scenario, Germany only has 1 sub fleet. I beefed that number up to three, the same number as in the ´40 campaign. Not sure if that´s the right amount, still....

Edit 2: Working on....the Italians and the Yugoslavians have been looked at. The Royal Yugoslav army actually was quite large - and won´t be such a cakewalk in this scenario anymore.

< Message edited by Glabro -- 5/2/2005 2:42:43 PM >

(in reply to Drax Kramer)
Post #: 25
RE: Campaign 1939 v01 - 5/2/2005 6:42:43 PM   
SeaMonkey

 

Posts: 661
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		Glabro,

When setting up the OOB for USSR, remember Soviet formations usually were smaller in manpower then the other national formations. Rule of thumb is a Soviet Corps is equal to a Division of other nations. You could reflect this in the combat parameters, but since the WaW supply model(consumption) is generic for all participants, I would use the "rule of thumb". Of course, it is your choice.

(in reply to Glabro)
Post #: 26
RE: Campaign 1939 v01 - 5/2/2005 9:18:44 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4923
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

I must admit my relative lack of knowledge on naval matters. If 10 or so armoured ships are enough to justify a heavy fleet unit, then is 60 subs about right for one sub unit?


Definitely wrong, I suggest you to read the game FAQ in sticky thread on this board.

quote:

Edit 2: Working on....the Italians and the Yugoslavians have been looked at. The Royal Yugoslav army actually was quite large - and won´t be such a cakewalk in this scenario anymore.


Royal Yugo Army laid down their arms after whopping 12 days struggle, which is ~0,1333 of a single turn in WAW True, they were left alone and had no help, but if that's not a walkover for Germans, I don't know what is. Actually, in WAW, such as it is, they put up much stronger defence.

They might have been numerically large, but were ridden with ethnic "issues" (to put it mildly), badly trained etc. Hardly any division sized unit put up prolonged defence vs. Germans. (Vs. Italians it was another story, but not very relevant in big scheme of things.)

You must keep things like that in mind when modding the game on this scale. If you're going to represent armies just by reflecting their numerical size into number of units you'll get very unhistorical, not to mention unbalanced scenarios.

O.

(in reply to Glabro)
Post #: 27
RE: Campaign 1939 v01 - 5/2/2005 9:39:42 PM   
CharonJr

 

Posts: 559
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline 		Yup, I was actually fairly surprised to see the Yugoslawian army at a strength of 4 infantry division, I think I would have prefered Militia (maybe a tad more than 4).

CharonJr


(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 28
RE: Campaign 1939 v01 - 5/2/2005 11:05:09 PM   
sveint


Posts: 1376
Joined: 1/19/2001
Status: offline 		One thing one really has to look at in a game this abstract is effectivness and suitability to the game. In many cases it might be better for the game to do some ahistorical adjustments.

I have quite a few ideas I'm working with but they are all waiting for next patch. Chief among them is turning Militia into Garrison (cannot attack or move tactically but slightly increased combat values).

(in reply to CharonJr)
Post #: 29
RE: Campaign 1939 v01 - 5/2/2005 11:25:49 PM   
Glabro

 

Posts: 39
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline 		Oh yes, the Yugoslavians are all militia, forgot to mention that. Still, I really do appreciate the info. Perhaps, after I´ve done tinkering, I´ll let you all judge how the forces look...

(in reply to sveint)
Post #: 30
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