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Any particular Reasoning - 3/22/2005 6:48:29 PM   
o4r

 

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Is there any particular reason why Italian and french are able field their heavier artillery like 105 mm and italian like 152 and yet Country like russian, German can't field these artillery on board?

Secondly, what is the different when u have a spotter and not have one. When using motar is doesn't really differ that much since they still hit on the same hex. Does it meant that when u have a spotter, the hit on the hex create more suppression than normal?

Ok new bug on 8.3
Why does the Italian upgrade screen allow us to upgrade to a 210 mm mortar with 3 units in it?
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RE: Any particular Reasoning - 3/22/2005 6:50:27 PM   
Alby


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quote:

ORIGINAL: o4r

Is there any particular reason why Italian and french are able field their heavier artillery like 105 mm and italian like 152 and yet Country like russian, German can't field these artillery on board?

'(]


they can in my MOD!!
All artillery that would fit in the OOB slots, is now available onboard as well as offboard.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=831080

< Message edited by Alby -- 4/9/2005 12:57:26 AM >


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RE: Any particular Reasoning - 3/22/2005 7:09:30 PM   
skukko


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Hello!

You can get those guns to GE from DEC. -49 onboard. These were actually meant to be at the use for scenario design. In pbem larger than 75mm is questionable thing. Sure if you'll play in huge map those guns should be quiet usefull, so use other axis-countries as Tchecks or Italian after talking with your pbem-pal. Just my thoughts of this.

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RE: Any particular Reasoning - 3/22/2005 7:26:27 PM   
Alby


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One thing to note
the onboard guns only have 1 tube whereas, the offboard guns have 4 tubes.
They also have a small rate of fire.
3-4 rounds for heavier guns.
5-6 for smaller ones

< Message edited by Alby -- 3/22/2005 7:30:43 PM >


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RE: Any particular Reasoning - 3/22/2005 7:51:15 PM   
Paranormalix

 

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With artillery spotter You get much faster rate of fire to Your artillery.

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RE: Any particular Reasoning - 3/22/2005 8:50:38 PM   
Poopyhead

 

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Actually, with a Forward Observer (FO) you get a faster rate of fire. The spotter (any unit with a Line Of Sight to the target) is supposed to get you better accuracy and therefore, more casualties. You can get the best of both if you initially sight with the FO to a hex near the target and then switch to the spotter and adjust onto the target. Or you can let the FO call in the first shot and then adjust with the spotter, but you lose a round and the element of surprise.
Also, the Czech OOB has a German 60cm seige mortar that is on map.


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RE: Any particular Reasoning - 3/22/2005 9:38:25 PM   
Alby


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I didnt mean how fast the response times are, I meant how many rounds it fires in a turn.
How many hits you see on your screen in other words.
Fire an offboard arty piece with fast arty off, then fire one onboard and you'll see there is a big difference.

< Message edited by Alby -- 3/22/2005 9:44:16 PM >


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RE: Any particular Reasoning - 3/22/2005 10:23:42 PM   
Poopyhead

 

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Rate of fire depends on the experience of the gun crew and ammo supply may reduce this. If the on board crew has more experience, then you will see a difference in rate of fire, assuming that they don't run out of ammo.

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RE: Any particular Reasoning - 3/23/2005 1:15:54 AM   
minefield


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Without commenting on all of that rate of fire stuff, firing with line of sight increases chances of casualties (50% more damaging) while firing without line of sight increases suppression (50% more suppression) (from manual IIRC).

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RE: Any particular Reasoning - 3/23/2005 1:37:08 AM   
Alby


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ROF=4




< Message edited by Alby -- 3/23/2005 2:14:46 AM >


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RE: Any particular Reasoning - 3/23/2005 2:24:43 AM   
KG Erwin


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Hey, I love US artillery, especially those 155s. However, the real killers are my trusty 60 & 81mm mortars. They spot for themselves, and at 4-6 hex range are "stack-squashers". My Marine guys just love 'em. The "Rubes with the Tubes" do their job well.

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RE: Any particular Reasoning - 3/23/2005 8:32:17 PM   
Poopyhead

 

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Alby, cute post.
In case you got confused, I was responding to 04r and Paranormalix. I usually try to share what meager knowledge I may have with others at the Training Center and I use the terms they use, like "rate of fire" for "response time", if English may be a second language for them. I prefer being helpful, to say, being a very interesting Rock and Roller.

< Message edited by Poopyhead -- 3/24/2005 10:26:11 PM >


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RE: Any particular Reasoning - 3/23/2005 8:38:38 PM   
Alby


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Poopyhead

Alby, cute post.
In case you got confused, I was responding to 04r and Paranormalix. I usually try to share what meager knowledge I may have with others at the Training Center and I use the terms they use, like "rate of fire" for "response time", if English may be a second language for them. I prefer being helpful, to say, being a complete freaking jerk.



I was just playin around

I'm not right ya know



< Message edited by Alby -- 3/23/2005 8:47:47 PM >


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RE: Any particular Reasoning - 3/23/2005 10:10:11 PM   
Poopyhead

 

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Me too Dude!!

Rock and Roll rules!!!!

BTW, nice T-shirt.

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RE: Any particular Reasoning - 3/28/2005 3:36:00 PM   
o4r

 

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Thanks guy, I knew about the ROF, actually I was looking for "Minefield" answer.

By the way, what I know about the FO is only they are good at the initial plotting. However depend on their experience it may not be true they always are better in shift firing.

Shift firing, if the unit u used has very high experience (not necessary be FO), sometime they only required 0.1 rather than the 0.2 for less experience FO.

As for rate of fire, technically it depend on how u consider a single turn meant. If u meant the ROF after ur turn, than yes it is higher rater of fire, well if u referring to the complete turn whereby the enemy completes it move, then the rate of fire is more ever the same of 0.1 and 0.2. And 0.3 and 0.4 is the same.

Example an Artillery has a ROF 3, if your plot is 0.1, then during end of ur turn, it fires 3 rounds, then at the end of the enemy turn, 1 round. If your plot is 0.2, then it fires 2 round during end of ur turn and another 2 at the end of the enemy turn.

By the way, does anyone knows which version was the MG more realistic. I have tried a mock up scenairo and was pretty disappoint. 3 MG cannot stop 3 platoon charging on a open area. I know there are infantry lover out there, as such, I wont critise much 'cause personally I was a Platoon Sgt and knew the effect of the MG. However, I knew that SPWAW has a version that the MG was more realistic. Can anyone enlighten me? I have all the version of the SPWAW, so pls tell me the version.




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RE: Any particular Reasoning - 3/28/2005 11:23:38 PM   
chief


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I believe it was ver 7.1 where the Mgs were powerful.

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RE: Any particular Reasoning - 3/29/2005 12:05:41 AM   
KG Erwin


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o4r, the MGs were one of the things that prompted the 8-series OOB overhaul. They were TOO powerful, and were knocking out light armor. I can see taking out a thin-skinned vehicle with the HMGs, like the "Ma Deuces", but not armored cars and light tanks with .30 cals.

In my current long campaign, after four battles I have several .30 cal HMGs & MMGs with at least two kills. Of course, I have a grand total of 9 HMGs and 18 MMGs in my three rifle companies, plus two .50 cals. Don't forget that experience levels play a big part in hit probability. The average exp of my USMC core (as of Dec 42) is 86. Some of my "elite" guys, like a few of the Raiders, almost never miss, but remember that the Marines have a definite "cult of the rifle", and those '03 Springfields can do a lot of damage in the hands of marksmen. Can't tell I'm one of those "infantry fans", can you?

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RE: Any particular Reasoning - 3/29/2005 2:38:56 AM   
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H2H MG's are very nice. Move and shoot, and they can kill something.


Goblin

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RE: Any particular Reasoning - 3/29/2005 4:35:54 AM   
KG Erwin


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Goblin, we're talking about philosophical differences. I personally don't think a 30 cal MMG or HMG should be able to move, set up and acquire a target within two or three minutes. Two turns seems realistic to me. The first turn means disassembling and picking up the piece, moving it to its new position, and setting it up. I have no problem with this--same goes for the mortars.

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RE: Any particular Reasoning - 3/29/2005 4:21:18 PM   
o4r

 

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Erwin, I am sorry I do not know much about the machine for SPWAW. But I certainly understand that SPWAW is getting already quite accurate. However, I am sorry I am unable to appreciate this current version, because of its MG power. I have personally eye withness the effect of a tank firing its co-axial gun and the effect of a .50 Cal. I would never dash across an open field. And I believe nobody can dash across open field and not be killed. I think I respect your view but the killing power of MG is underrated, but it is ok, I still can go back to 7 for my MG.

Well according to my knowledge, u did a survey before and got the answer, most of the ppl around here actually play with AI rather than with other player. So hopefully the latest version are made for that.

Ok, "Goblin" about moving and firing MG.... are u joking.??.. unless it is a SAW, u could do that with a SAW definitely not with a GPMG. Our army used a M60 MG, so it is pretty similar to a MG42. We have played with the gun on standing position firing a couple of times (all NCO :), private no allow and so is the officer... ) , we were actually trying challenging with each other on whether how long we could stand and fire before we could not stand anymore. Normally, we end up lying back on the floor and the MG firing towards the sky after only about 10 to 15 rounds max... the recoil is too high. It is fun but ... shhhh....it is against our military law to do so...

However, the time required to dash 50 m and set up an MG and fire... I think bipod is possible but the accuracy will drop. However SPWAW shows a group of 4. Hey this is not bipod, I think this is tripod. The accuracy is extremely good but definitely not its speed to fire again. Setting required time.

Maybe u could create a 2 men MG, then this unit could move and fire but the range and accurately will drop.

By the way, Mr Erwin, could I use the OOb for this version and overwrite the version 7 OOB?

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RE: Any particular Reasoning - 3/29/2005 7:55:44 PM   
KG Erwin


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You want to use the 8.3 OOBs inside game version 7.1? Sure, I see no problem with that.
Make sure you keep a backup copy of the 7.1 OOBs, though.

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RE: Any particular Reasoning - 3/29/2005 8:34:25 PM   
Losqualo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

You want to use the 8.3 OOBs inside game version 7.1? Sure, I see no problem with that.
Make sure you keep a backup copy of the 7.1 OOBs, though.


Does the 7.x AI understand the AI only formations in the 8.3 OOB's?

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RE: Any particular Reasoning - 3/29/2005 10:29:22 PM   
KG Erwin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Losqualo


quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

You want to use the 8.3 OOBs inside game version 7.1? Sure, I see no problem with that.
Make sure you keep a backup copy of the 7.1 OOBs, though.


Does the 7.x AI understand the AI only formations in the 8.3 OOB's?


Hmm-- there's only one way to find out. I didn't keep any of the older mech.exe files, so o4r, let us know if it works.

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RE: Any particular Reasoning - 3/29/2005 11:11:42 PM   
Goblin


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o4r,

No, I am not joking. I have seen footage of Japanese, German, and American crews hoisting up a tripoded MG and dashing forward 50m, then dropping the gun down and firing again. It most certainly was done, and should be allowed in the game, especially in a turn that is "several minutes long".

To be clear : H2H does not allow movement with a HMG. Those are still either move or shoot, which I agree with. Only light and medium MG's may do so, and they do not have massive amounts of movement poits to spend. This now represents the short dashes by the crews. Very realistic, and the machinegunes are quite effective.

If you are going with 7.1, H2H is a good addition to it, especially for the needed boost in MG performance.


Goblin

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RE: Any particular Reasoning - 3/30/2005 4:19:57 AM   
Alby


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I know it was only a movie but in Band of Brothers, when they assualted the 105 german positions
they got those 30 cals set up and firing pretty quick!!!
I have no problem with LMG and MMg being able to fire after moving,, I wish I could figure out how LEO did that in H2H!!!!!!!
classed as pack animals??????
he did something to the mech.exe I would imagine

< Message edited by Alby -- 4/12/2005 6:16:34 AM >


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RE: Any particular Reasoning - 3/30/2005 6:06:49 AM   
Major Destruction


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Losqualo


Does the 7.x AI understand the AI only formations in the 8.3 OOB's?


Yes

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RE: Any particular Reasoning - 3/30/2005 6:28:57 AM   
Major Destruction


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It is important to state the asumptions that you are making about the game.

How you interpret the model of an infantry squad moving across an open field?
Is the field flat? Like a billiard table?
Are the men standing upright? Or crouching? Or moving and finding cover, then moving again?

Do you model your squad, when moving slowly, to be walking upright?
Do you model your squad when moving quickly, to be jogging upright or taking quick spurts and then finding cover?

What happens when the machine gun fires?
In the game, you will notice that a MG will generally score casualties at a range of 6 hexes or so with the first shot almost every time. How many casualties do you score when you fire two three or four more shots?

What is the squad doing in your model while the MG is firing?

Are they continuing to stand upright?

Here is what I see in the game.

A squad moves one hex into my LOS. My MG does not opfire.
A second squad moves one hex into my LOS. My MG crew spots the second squad, momentarily losing sight of the first squad.
A third squad moves into LOS but my MG team is trying to find a bead on the first squad.

The first squad moves again and I shoot. I score one casualty and that squad goes to ground.

Now what do I do? Do I empty the belt on the first squad in the hope of hitting another man that I can not see?

No I'll now choose to concentrate on a different squad

and so on.

It might appear to be crazy to try to move across an open field into the teeth of a machine gun but it was done in WW2 often, probably every day, successfully by somebody, somewhere.

If 30 men are moving across the field, while the MG is shooting at one of them, it is not shooting at me and I am safe to move. If I do not move, some mean spirited sergeant will be kicking my backside and telling me to get moving. It then becomes a question of what do you fear more?

I believe the SPWAW v8.3 MG's are well modelled.



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RE: Any particular Reasoning - 3/31/2005 7:00:21 PM   
Wild Bill

 

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The Major and I are long time friends. We don't always see eye to eye, but I agree heartily with him here. I think they are well represented in version 8.3.

WB

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RE: Any particular Reasoning - 3/31/2005 10:27:30 PM   
Goblin


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I saw an interesting program on WW1. They did an experiment to test how dangerous a MG was, and how it caused so many casualties. They had 10 soldiers in MILES gear move across a hundred meters of mostly open ground (mainly deep grass) towards the gun (a WW1 MG).

The first time, they had to move like the WW1 soldiers did, in full packs, in line abreast. I think 1 or 2 guys made it to the cover of a sunken road (thier goal).

The second time, they had to carry full packs, but could run and zig zag the whole way. 3 or 4 made it across.

Next, they were allowed to shed their gear, and run full out in just their uniforms. I think 6 guys made it, IIRC.

Now, start them out 6 hexes away (300m), and imagine what would have happened. MG's are underpowered against infantry in the open in this game. I know it was done successfully in RL, but casualties would be higher than they are, and infantry damn sure did not want to do it, for good reason.



Goblin

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RE: Any particular Reasoning - 4/4/2005 4:26:36 PM   
RockinHarry


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Same old topic again, although Stuart and Goblin made some excellent points and examples! I oftenly muttered in the past about the ineffectiveness (lethality) of a 30cal MMG firing at the enemy and to be honest when designing scenarios, I crank their FC (fire control) up a little bit to achieve more "effect" on enemy infantry, in particular when the 30cal is set up for defense.

Generally the modelling of machine guns in SPWAW is quite sound if you consider the game mechanics (IGOUGO play system) and time/space involved. First of all, I switch unit icons size to smallest possible (=3) to remind myself that the hex you see filled with your digital grunts in reality is as good as empty! Even with with icon size set to 3 you still see the single trooper icons beeing 4x as large as they would be compared to real size. Hex scale is limited to 1pixel=1m, so a real scale soldier simply would not be bigger than a simple single pixel! Now visualize yourself 10 pixels (=10 men) distributed in the hex with certain state of development (german=Entwicklung) which could either be a singlr file, some sort of battle line or small 2-3 men teams spread around. An experienced infantry squad now most likely is spreading more within the 50m size hex, while low experience units troopers might bunch up around their NCO´s, making them better targets!

Now back to machine guns. SPWAW machine guns fire in burst and a burst is probably something like between 5-10 bullets per "shot" fired against those tiny 10 men (pixels) all spread in our 50m size hex. A high rate of fire MG like the MG42 certainly gets a few more bullets in shorter time towards the target than a "slow" ROF Maxim/Vickers, thus the difference of HE kill in the OOB. In general the final "effect" on the target is not that large as one would expect. But that depends on other circumstances too! As said unit experience (of target, as well as shooter) counts much, as well as the target is "assault moving" (=1 hex/turn) or "charging" (more than 1 hex/turn). Experienced units can "anticipate" shots and go to ground before effective fire might hit them. All that is actually modelled in the game, although with lots of abstraction. Goblins WW1 example I think shows quite well the differences between "assault moving" and "charging" the enemy lines.

Open (mixed) terrain in SPWAW. It ain´t. A 50m SPWAW open/mixed hex is full of spots where a squad of infantry can take cover,...when they´re quick enough. Here again comes unit (target) experience and movement speed into play again, but it also must be stressed that those 10 men in the target squad are still more or less widely spread (or not if inexperienced) within the target hex! Now a single HMG shooting at enemy infantry 1 hex away does not shoot its full firepower at a single big 10 men target, it rather needs to "sweep" its fire at 10 different single targets in about a 120° fire arc! If you really want those deadly "mow down" effects so oftenly reported from the eastern front to be seen in the game, then you need to increase the unit "density" in a hex considerably! If you take 10 men in a 50 meter size hex as a guideline, then to achieve the "human wave" effect in SPWAW, you need to have ~30-50 soldiers (~3-5 squads) in a single SPWAW hex! Now have that 3-5 squads all moving/charging toward a MG42 HMG (a situation that might occur mostly in an enemy half turn, since you can´t "group" move so many units at once and bunched up units in the enemy player half turn are still considered all moving!) and now watch your kill rate! Other effects that make a HMG more deadly is a possible height advantage ( +30m?).

If you also play latest version of SP2WW2 (V7.01) then you see that "open" terrain looks much more varied, giving a better imagination that a clear terrain hex is anything but a patch of grass on a golf course! An "open/mixed" hex has many folds, small depressions ect. where single men can take effectively cover from same level direct fire. (Hint: You can use SP2WW2 clear terrain graphics in SPWAW too! Just renaming of files is required.)

HMG units shoot and scoot: It´s forgotten with frequency that a single SPWAW game turn is made of 2 seperate player turns and that a full game turn is modelled to represent a time frame of between 2 to 5 minutes each. If you take a closer look, while you only can move your HMG in your half of the game turn, you can (OP fire) shoot the same HMG in the enemy half of the whole game turn. I imagine (as Wild Bill stated lately) that moving AND shooting a HMG all in the friendly half of the game turn is nothing but shooting a tripod "MG anything" from the hip! Welcome in Rambo land!

I recommend to have some fun playing a 3D game like Combat Mission which gives great lessons to understand time and space issues on battlefields much better!

Arty fire delays in SPWAW: same issue. Consider a full game turn to be abstracted 2 to 5 minutes and you´ll notice that a ROF of 0.1 in fact means between 12 and 30 seconds delay! That a full game turn is actually divided (time warp wise) into a friendly and enemy half can also be observed by the 0.4 Arty. delay example! A 0.4 delay fire for effect always starts in the enemy half of the full game turn (0.4 x game turn = between 48 to 120 seconds from start) When compared to Arty. fire delays in the Combat Mission game (which has a very high reputation for its realism and accuracy), I don´t see anything grossly off in the SPWAW game, the more as SPWAW uses a play system (IGOUGO) that requires a high level of abstraction to get to work. Also the game manual explains the issue on page 63 quite well.

General ROF ratings in SPWAW: Count friendly half turn and enemy half turn OP fire opportunities and you have the approximated real game turn ROF/Shots for a particular weapon! The game manual explains it as follows:

ROF - The maximum number of shots a unit can have in a turn. Based on experience
and movement it gets degraded.(game manual page 109)

Shots by units typically represent individual rounds or
small shot groups for tanks and artillery, and bursts of 5-10 rounds for small arms and automatic
heavy weapons. (game manual page2)

Note: I would be interested to know when "shot groups" apply to tanks or guns, rather than single shots!??
I have the impression that "shot groups" are rather used for indirekt artillery, while "single shots" count for direkt fire guns?! (except small arms and auto guns)

Remember that shots are the number of times that a unit can fire during its turn. This varies
according to unit type (big guns take longer to load), number of men in the unit (if an anti-tank gun
loses one or two of its crew members, then they are unable to load the gun as quickly), status of
the unit (pinned units get less shots), experience level of the crew and the leadership value of the
unit leader. Elite units can actually receive more shots than inexperienced units. You usually
receive at least one or two shots per turn unless the unit is in bad shape. (game manual page 61)

Note: When speaking of "turns", most likely a player "half turn" is actually meant!

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(in reply to Goblin)
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