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Krim Peninsula worthless!?!

 
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Krim Peninsula worthless!?! - 8/10/2001 8:17:00 PM   
moonfog

 

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In the current version of Wir (as in all versions before) the Krim Peninsula seems to me quite uninteresting to attack or to defend. In the historical campaign, Krim was attacked by the entire 11. German Army. Sure there were also political reasons for the capture of the Krim and Sevastopol (for ex. Turkey who let axis ships through the Bosporus after the fall of Sevastopol)which are not simulated in the game. But I think that the Krim was also attacked because of operational reasons. A left behind Krim would have been a serious threat in the south flank of the german advance towards Rostov which could not be ignored. In the game the Krim is in fact ignorable. It can easily be sealed off by an advance to Zaporozhe. After that only the city of Sevastopol remains in supply due to naval support. Playing the German side I normally place a very weak Romanian Korps near Perekop and don't bother anymore about the Krim. The Russian is not able to threaten even this weak Korps since every soviet army moving out of Sevastopol is immediatly in a supply 0 hex. Are there any suggestions how this "flaw" could be handled? One possibility could be to create a rail line which goes through from Novorossiysk to Sevastopol. That would keep the Krim in supply until it is completly conquered and would force the German player to do so. The problem with this change ist that it makes an attack into Caucasus from Krim possible. I admit that isn't very realistic (although the Soviets started an amphibious attack in other direction in late 1943 IIRC, but only with small forces). What do you think about the Krim topic? Regards Moonfog

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- 8/10/2001 9:41:00 PM   
Don Shafer

 

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Main reason for the 11th Army to attack Sevastopol was because of Hitler's fear that the Soviets would use the region to bomb the Ploesti oilfields and to keep pressure on Turkey to stay out of the war on the Allies side since they were the main supplier of chrome to Germany. But he also realized that Rostov was the gateway to the Caucusus and not the Crimea. The Soviets never were able to launch an attack on Sevastopol until after Zaporozhe was cleared. I wouldn't really consider it a flaw in my opinion.
quote:

Originally posted by moonfog: In the current version of Wir (as in all versions before) the Krim Peninsula seems to me quite uninteresting to attack or to defend. In the historical campaign, Krim was attacked by the entire 11. German Army. Sure there were also political reasons for the capture of the Krim and Sevastopol (for ex. Turkey who let axis ships through the Bosporus after the fall of Sevastopol)which are not simulated in the game. But I think that the Krim was also attacked because of operational reasons. A left behind Krim would have been a serious threat in the south flank of the german advance towards Rostov which could not be ignored. In the game the Krim is in fact ignorable. It can easily be sealed off by an advance to Zaporozhe. After that only the city of Sevastopol remains in supply due to naval support. Playing the German side I normally place a very weak Romanian Korps near Perekop and don't bother anymore about the Krim. The Russian is not able to threaten even this weak Korps since every soviet army moving out of Sevastopol is immediatly in a supply 0 hex. Are there any suggestions how this "flaw" could be handled? One possibility could be to create a rail line which goes through from Novorossiysk to Sevastopol. That would keep the Krim in supply until it is completly conquered and would force the German player to do so. The problem with this change ist that it makes an attack into Caucasus from Krim possible. I admit that isn't very realistic (although the Soviets started an amphibious attack in other direction in late 1943 IIRC, but only with small forces). What do you think about the Krim topic? Regards Moonfog


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Post #: 2
- 8/12/2001 1:51:00 AM   
moonfog

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Don Shafer: Main reason for the 11th Army to attack Sevastopol was because of Hitler's fear that the Soviets would use the region to bomb the Ploesti oilfields and to keep pressure on Turkey to stay out of the war on the Allies side since they were the main supplier of chrome to Germany.
You are right about that, Don. The main military reason for the attack on the Crimea and Sevastopol was the fear of soviet airstrikes on the vital oilfields at Ploesti and not the fear of a soviet land attack in the South flank of Heeresgruppe Süd. According to Hitler’s orders for the conduct of the war (Hitlers Weisungen für die Kriegführung), the OKW never expected such a flank attack. In the game, do you think that the soviet player is really able to harm the oilfields with airforce? To do so, you must place a HQ in Sevastopol since it’s the only supplied hex after the Crimea is sealed off. But that makes a defence of Sevastopol against land forces very unlikely (Units in HQ don’t dig in IIRC. I may be wrong here!?!) So the soviet player can’t have both, threaten Ploesti by airforce and create a fortress Sevastopol with dug in land units.
quote:

But he also realized that Rostov was the gateway to the Caucusus and not the Crimea.
At the end, the assault of the Caucasus was conducted only at Rostov. But I think that the reason for that was the need of the Divisions of 11th Army at other fronts than the Crimea. On July 11th 1942, Hitler and OKW gave out the „Weisung Nr. 43: Continuation of the operations from Crimea“. This Weisung ordered 11th Army to plan an invasion of the Cacasus with the mass of the army from Kertsch (Operation Blücher). The target of this assault was to take Novorossijsk and Maikop and support the forces advancing from Rostov in the flank and rear of the soviet defence line. So I don’t think that the Germans thought that the Crimea could not be used as a gateway to the Caucasus. They just lacked the Divisions to attack the Caucasus from two directions.
quote:

I wouldn't really consider it a flaw in my opinion.
Maybe you’re right. But an attack from Crimea was planned in reality, so it should in my opinion be possible to do so in the game (if the Germans have the needed Divisions in Reserve, which will surely be a hard task). But on the other hand, this would be an amphibious operation and naval warfare in the Black Sea is not simulated in the game. (and solving that by creating a rail line from Novorossjisk to Sevastopol is perhaps not a good/realistic idea). So it’s perhaps really not a flaw. Moonfog

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- 8/13/2001 6:11:00 AM   
Don Shafer

 

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From: Pocahontas, IA USA
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It is easier for the Germans to attack across the Kuban then the Soviets to attack across it. If the German player takes the Crimea, then an assault over the Kuban is a distinct possibility. This is what the original intent of the question was about. If the Soviet player places one good army on the Kuban, the Germans cannot cross, but a counter-attack cannot succeed because of supply difficulties.
quote:

Originally posted by moonfog:
Maybe you’re right. But an attack from Crimea was planned in reality, so it should in my opinion be possible to do so in the game (if the Germans have the needed Divisions in Reserve, which will surely be a hard task). But on the other hand, this would be an amphibious operation and naval warfare in the Black Sea is not simulated in the game. (and solving that by creating a rail line from Novorossjisk to Sevastopol is perhaps not a good/realistic idea). So it’s perhaps really not a flaw. Moonfog


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This message posted by permission of and in accordance with the regulations as mandated by our self-appointed High Lord and Master Ed Cogburn.
All hail the Dictator of War in Russia etiquette and morality!
His is a superior intellect and with hi

(in reply to moonfog)
Post #: 4
- 8/20/2001 6:28:00 PM   
Muzrub


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I think one other thing that should be considered is the German Units of the 11th Army were held down in the Crimea until the fall of S.
In the game the units of the 11th Army are not truly needed in the Crimea and can be used in other theatres.
This to me is a shame, maybe it could be solved by the opposing players.
But to me not having to take it is senseless.
There should be some incentive, but maybe crossing over into the Caucasus is one, if the supply level is decent.

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- 8/20/2001 7:04:00 PM   
Lokioftheaesir

 

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My2Cents In every game iv'e played the crimea is vitually ignored. Some players have launched hit and run air strikes from there but it is a non event in general. If the designer had connected those rail lines it would change the character of the entire southern front.(the axis would gain the most from this) Nick

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Post #: 6
- 8/20/2001 8:17:00 PM   
moonfog

 

Posts: 70
Joined: 7/21/2001
From: Switzerland
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Muzrub:
I think one other thing that should be considered is the German Units of the 11th Army were held down in the Crimea until the fall of S.
In the game the units of the 11th Army are not truly needed in the Crimea and can be used in other theatres.
This to me is a shame, maybe it could be solved by the opposing players.
But to me not having to take it is senseless.
There should be some incentive, but maybe crossing over into the Caucasus is one, if the supply level is decent.

Yepp, that's what I wanted to point out with my first post. I never use the 11th Army on Crimea, instead they run for Rostov. At the Crimea a romanian Korps is sufficient. I think crossing into the Caucasus from Crimea is at the moment not a real incentive since the troops lack supply very soon. Taking Novorossijsk does change the supply situation only in the city hex, IIRC, not on the entire Kuban.
quote:

Originally posted by Lokioftheaesir:
If the designer had connected those rail lines it would change the character of the entire southern front.(the axis would gain the most from this)
Connecting the rail line from Kertsch to Kuban would in my opinion be the most simple solution for that. Although not a very realistic change though, the effect would be a german player who can't ignore the Crimea anymore. Still there is a swamp hex at Kuban that allows a good defence to the Soviets. Given this good defensive opportunity, the Soviet would also benefit from such a change since he had not to deal with 11th Army around the Dnjeprline or somewhere else. Moonfog [ August 20, 2001: Message edited by: moonfog ]



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