Comprehensive Port bombing testing (98 B-29's vs. 50 ships in day and night)...

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

Like I promised here are my comprehensive v1.40 Port bombing tests!


Description:

I created brand new custom scenario for this testing.

There are only 3 islands present: Marcus Island, Wake Island and Midway. Marcus Island is IJN base while Midway is USN base. For this test Wake Island is made Japanese base with both Port and Airbase (and SPS) of 6.

There is nothing (no LCU's and aircraft) at Wake Island except ships in port.

Weather is always clear.

FoW is OFF.

Two B-29's groups have their default leaders (50's/60's ratings) while their EXP and morale is set to 70.

The B-29's have to fly 14 HEXes from Midway to Wake Island.

The B-29's attack from 10000ft.

In Japanese held port there are 10x AO, 10x TK and 30x AP ships (all sizes and shapes).


5 consecutive runs of scenario in day (i.e. daytime bombings):


********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 89


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Ayo Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Banshu Maru #21, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Hayasui, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Kazahaya, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Awajisan Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Ayato Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AO Iro, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 1
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 2, heavy damage
AO Erimo, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Azuchi Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Chichibu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Amakasu Maru #1, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Gokoku Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 1

Port hits 10
Port supply hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 92


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AP Gokoku Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AO Hayamoto, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Azuchi Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Hakone Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Awa Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Erimo, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 1
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Kazahaya, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AO Hayasui, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Banshu Maru #21, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Awajisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Port hits 5
Port fuel hits 2
Port supply hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
12 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 87


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AP Amakasu Maru #1, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Ayato Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Banshu Maru #21, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 1
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Awajisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 1

Port hits 4
Port fuel hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
14 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
5 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 86


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Awajisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Iro, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Hayamoto, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Amakasu Maru #1, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Azuchi Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Erimo, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Port hits 5
Port fuel hits 3
Port supply hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
24 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
13 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 90


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Hayamoto, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 1
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Hakone Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Iro, Bomb hits 1
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Ayo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Amakasu Maru #1, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Awajisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Gokoku Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Kazahaya, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Azuchi Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Chichibu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1

Port hits 4
Port supply hits 4

Aircraft Attacking:
24 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
13 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************


1 run of scenario in day (i.e. night bombings) for comparison only:

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/02/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 36


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Chichibu Maru, Bomb hits 1

Port hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
18 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
18 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************


Discussion:

IMHO the daytime destruction of ships in port is still very very high.

Also even new v1.40 results at night seems a bit high.


What is your opinion of this gentleman?


Can someone give historic results of similar raids in WWII?


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
I can have my custom TEST scenario's available if needed.

[2ndACR]

There is no historical precedent for this. B29's did not conduct port attacks IIRC.

But they do look way over powered for port attacks during the day. Try some B17's and other types. Maybe it has to do with the mongo bomb loads that B29's carry.

[Erik Rutins]

Give this a try with combat ships in port as well, if you have time.

Regards,

- Erik

[Ron Saueracker]

Conclusions? Here is mine.

I've said all along that ships in ports inWITP are like huge fat sows nested together in a big round target shape. Bombing,especially high level is too accurate, doubly so due to the damage model...no near misses, no non critical areas to hit. Ships are all spread all over the place and are often protected by torpedo nets, artificial moles, barrage balloons,camoflaged etc. Conversely, port hits are rarely scored in contrast to number of ships and multiple hits on ships.

Recommendation: cut bombing vs ships in port accuracy by 75% minimum. Increase chance for a port hit.

Not related to this thread but here goes. During development, it was decided to allow twin engine bombers and larger aircraft to torpedo ships in port (disbanded). I asked for this decision to be reversed because I know of not one single occurence of this happening during the war in any theatre (not talking roadsteads here,but ports). Nobody else could point one out after I challenged them to point out a single historical precedent. Yet it is still in. Pilots and bomber commanders knew that ports were too difficult an obstacle course to allow the long runs neccessary to launch from non 1E tactical bombers. Granted,since there is no limit to port capacity for some unknown reason, I suppose it must be assumed that disbanding does not neccesarily mean tied up in a slip, stuck in a bay, resting in drydock, behind net defences,behind other ships etc. Many would be outside the main port in more vulnerable roadsteads. Do to this abstraction, some torp attacks could be allowed, but not at this extremely high probability. So,this being the case...

Recommendation: reduce the chance of 2E and 4E bombers using torps vs ships in ports by at least 75%.

Why is it so easy to A) damage a port and B) repair it? Further, considering we have no operational limit for ports, damage is almost meaningless.

Recommendation. Allow more port hits but have the hits do much less damage. Increase the repair time needed to repair ports. Perhaps limit/restrict disbandement in ports damaged beyond 50%. Limit/restrict docking beyond 75% damage. Maybe introduce an operations maximum for ports and have this effected by damage.

When targeting cities, ports, allow some chance for crossover hits as these facilities were not exactly seperated from each other by some invisible forcefield. In fact, they are basically the same thing, just a different side of the tracks.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Give this a try with combat ships in port as well, if you have time.

Regards,

- Erik

Erik you read my mind... I was just doing it right now... [:)]

I will post results in few minutes.

BTW "2ndACR", I can't use the B-17 because their range is 13 while distance between my islands is 14 (the only thing that I can do is increase the endurance of plane but that would be unrealistic).


Leo "Apollo11"

[2ndACR]

Well shucks. I could have sworn that the B17 would hit Wake from Midway. I know I saw a raid from there in one of my PBEM games.

Oh well.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

As requested here are test results against warships!


Description:

I created brand new custom scenario for this testing.

There are only 3 islands present: Marcus Island, Wake Island and Midway. Marcus Island is IJN base while Midway is USN base. For this test Wake Island is made Japanese base with both Port and Airbase (and SPS) of 6.

There is nothing (no LCU's and aircraft) at Wake Island except ships in port.

Weather is always clear.

FoW is OFF.

Two B-29's groups have their default leaders (50's/60's ratings) while their EXP and morale is set to 70.

The B-29's have to fly 14 HEXes from Midway to Wake Island.

The B-29's attack from 10000ft.

In Japanese held port there are 2x CV, 3x BB, 6x CA and 8x DD ships (all sizes and shapes).


5 consecutive runs of scenario in day (i.e. daytime bombings):


********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 88


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 7 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 12, on fire, heavy damage
BB Kongo, Bomb hits 9, on fire
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 11, on fire
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 15, on fire
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 5, on fire
CA Atago, Bomb hits 1
DD Naganami, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Kazegumo, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Port hits 6
Port fuel hits 3
Port supply hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 90


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 5 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 11, on fire
CA Tone, Bomb hits 1
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 10, on fire, heavy damage
CA Takao, Bomb hits 1
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 6, on fire
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 12, on fire
BB Kongo, Bomb hits 3
CA Haguro, Bomb hits 1
DD Naganami, Bomb hits 1

Port hits 7
Port fuel hits 1
Port supply hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
7 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
10 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 86


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 8 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 15, on fire
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 13, on fire, heavy damage
BB Kongo, Bomb hits 5, on fire
CA Haguro, Bomb hits 2
CA Tone, Bomb hits 4
CA Myoko, Bomb hits 1
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 11, on fire
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 4, on fire
CA Takao, Bomb hits 1

Port hits 4
Port fuel hits 3
Port supply hits 4

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
13 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 87


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 7 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 7, on fire, heavy damage
CA Myoko, Bomb hits 1
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 9, on fire
BB Kongo, Bomb hits 15, on fire
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 10, on fire
CA Tone, Bomb hits 1
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 4
CA Takao, Bomb hits 1
CA Atago, Bomb hits 1

Port hits 4
Port fuel hits 2
Port supply hits 3

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
14 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
5 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 90


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 9 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 15, on fire, heavy damage
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 5, on fire
BB Nagato, Bomb hits 6
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 8, on fire
BB Kongo, Bomb hits 2

Port hits 6
Port supply hits 3

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
19 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************


1 run of scenario at night (i.e. night bombing) for comparison only:

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/02/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 35


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 1
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 1
BB Kongo, Bomb hits 1
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 1

Port hits 1
Port supply hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************


Discussion:

Although there are large number of hits (which is too high IMHO) the SYS damage is rather low because all impacts were against BB/CA ships that have armour. When CV was hit the SYS damage was always high (flight deck was penetrated because there was no armour).

Also note that lots and lots of equipment and weapons were destroyed on ships that suffered semi low SYS damage (BBs/CAs) and lost of fires were started.

Again the overall number of hits for day and night is high...


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
I can have my custom TEST scenario's available if needed.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Well shucks. I could have sworn that the B17 would hit Wake from Midway. I know I saw a raid from there in one of my PBEM games.

Oh well.

Not in WitP world... sorry... [:(]

BTW, the B-29 "Normal" range is 20 thus 14 HEXes in my test falls comfortably in it. Since B-29 can carry 40x 500 lb bombs and B-17 12 the B-29 is roughly 3x more effective bomb load wise (although 3x B-17 have better chance of hitting than 1x B-29)...


Leo "Apollo11"

[Jorm]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker


Not related to this thread but here goes. During development, it was decided to allow twin engine bombers and larger aircraft to torpedo ships in port (disbanded). I asked for this decision to be reversed because I know of not one single occurence of this happening during the war in any theatre (not talking roadsteads here,but ports). Nobody else could point one out after I challenged them to point out a single historical precedent.

3rd December 1940, 2x SM79's torpedoed HMS Glasgow while at anchor in Suda bay, ie in port

September 1940 6x beauforts of 22 Sqn made night torp attacks against shipping in Cherbourg harbour

FO K. Cambell of 22 Sqn (Beauforts) won a VC (Postumous) for putting a torp into Gneisenau while Docked

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Jorm

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker


Not related to this thread but here goes. During development, it was decided to allow twin engine bombers and larger aircraft to torpedo ships in port (disbanded). I asked for this decision to be reversed because I know of not one single occurence of this happening during the war in any theatre (not talking roadsteads here,but ports). Nobody else could point one out after I challenged them to point out a single historical precedent.

3rd December 1940, 2x SM79's torpedoed HMS Glasgow while at anchor in Suda bay, ie in port

September 1940 6x beauforts of 22 Sqn made night torp attacks against shipping in Cherbourg harbour

FO K. Cambell of 22 Sqn (Beauforts) won a VC (Postumous) for putting a torp into Gneisenau while Docked

Excellent! I found out about the Gneisenau after my first comments on this
about six months ago, but that was it. Were the Glasgow and merchants in other examples actually IN the tight confines of the harbor as opposed to middle of a bay, exposed onthe outside of a nest etc.?

That was pretty quick but Idoubt if many other examples areout there. In WITP, you can get this result during a 12 hour phase. Seems too common an occurance to me by a wide margin.

Thanks for the replay. What areyour thoughts on this Jorm?

[2Stepper]

Well, I'm going to attempt to weigh in on this, partly because its interesting, but also because "in principle" at least I agree with the way the B29 tests went.

First off, I noted some variation in the amount of hits in all instances. Not a wide variation, but there is one none the less. This is interesting because as level bombers make their run, they're attempting to put a "stick" of bombs down over a target area. They may nail that stick, they may miss it a bit...

The ability to do damage to anchored vessels then becomes a case of 1, what are they bombing? Is it the port or the ships, or both? Second, is the skills of the crews involved. If you have highly skilled bomber crews with clear weather, they're going to put between 60-80% of their bombs on the stick depending on wind variations. And third frankly how many warheads can you put on the foreheads of your target. More the merrier.

By that particular time in the war, our crews were VERY experienced at killing things on the ground when the weather was favorable.

Apollo, what might prove interesting in your experiment there is dropping the experience of the crews to try and make it relative to experience and strength of bombers early in the war. Say dropping it from 60 to 40 or 35. THEN make the flight under the same conditions.

Conversely what you might try is a B17 raid from Port Morseby to Rabaul. That was a target well within their range and you can rerun the scenario against all types of ships and experience.

Point I'm getting at is while the damage loads that occur in these instances might be a "tad" high, I don't really think they're grossly unrealistic. Because if those ships are moored together and the bombers land their bombs on their sticks they're shooting for? There's going to be a LOT of damage doled out, PARTICULARLY if pilot experience is high with those bomb loads the B29s carry. Again, depending on what the target is. Be it ships in port or the port itself.

I suspect a B17 test from PM to Rabaul or something similar would prove interesting with a 50-55 exp level of the crews.

Just my thoughts on the matter. [8D]

[Brady]

I would agree that the % of hits is high, and that somthing should be done, what I am woundering is howeaver how will the "fix" effect planes that would conduct port atacks in a similar mishion profile that would historical have a better chance of hitting, planes like Kates or TBm's or B-25's, ect, planes that would be sortied under thame mishion type and cary considerably smaller bombloads, yet have a inhearenlty larger hit probablilty dispite the bomb load do to their plane type and training ?

[2Stepper]

ORIGINAL: Brady

I would agree that the % of hits is high, and that somthing should be done, what I am woundering is howeaver how will the "fix" effect planes that would conduct port atacks in a similar mishion profile that would historical have a better chance of hitting, planes like Kates or TBm's or B-25's, ect, planes that would be sortied under thame mishion type and cary considerably smaller bombloads, yet have a inhearenlty larger hit probablilty dispite the bomb load do to their plane type and training ?

Thats the thing though Brady, I don't think its THAT high really... no more'n 5% over what it probably should be. Due to experience of crews, bomb load and weather conditions.

Which is why I think a B17 test like I mentioned would be interesting. That, or toss in the typical weather that was prevalent in the pacific basin and try it again. I'd wager that the damage loads in the first B29 examples drop by nearly half.

Weather was a bigger factor in the Pacific bombing campaign then it was in Europe.

[Mr.Frag]

Always love these threads. On one hand people complain that they don't get enough hits, someone counters that they get too many hits [:D]

I think the answer is the lock the B-29 to city attacks only as it is simply too big a bomber to be used enmass against things like ports and airfields.

[tsimmonds]

I think the answer is the lock the B-29 to city attacks only as it is simply too big a bomber to be used enmass against things like ports and airfields.

Why bother to change the code when a house rule will suffice?

edit: Oops, I always forget about the AI.

[Mr.Frag]

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

I think the answer is the lock the B-29 to city attacks only as it is simply too big a bomber to be used enmass against things like ports and airfields.

Why bother to change the code when a house rule will suffice?

edit: Oops, I always forget about the AI.

I love it when people answer their own questions before I have to [:D]

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Always love these threads. On one hand people complain that they don't get enough hits, someone counters that they get too many hits [:D]

I think the answer is the lock the B-29 to city attacks only as it is simply too big a bomber to be used enmass against things like ports and airfields.

Mr. Frag, I agree since minelaying is a subset of City Attack.

It nearly took a Presidential order to get the Army Air Force to allow the use of the B-29s for anything except "strategic" bombing. When Nimitz finally got them to bomb a few airfields as a anti-kamikaze measure they proved that they were certainly not a cost effective platform for the results achieved (from each a/c, one or two bombs hit the target and the other gazillion were short or long).

HOWEVER, when they were finally used for mining operations, they proved to be higly successful.

[ChezDaJez]

B-29s (or B-17s for that matter) were not used against naval targets to a great degree and when they were (B-17s early in the war), the results were neglible.

Planners would target port facilities, not the ships in them unless it was an exceedingly high value target (CV, BB). They often left those for Tacair to handle. If a ship was DOCKED and the port was targeted, there was a good chance it would sustain damage as well. If you look at the wartime photos taken of shipping in naval harbors (ours and theirs), the ships were anchored separately and never clustered together when within range of enemy air. That was just the prudent thing to do.

Just think of them lonely bastards on those ammo ships, nobody wanted to be anywhere near them. They always got to anchor out past the entrance.

Chez

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Always love these threads. On one hand people complain that they don't get enough hits, someone counters that they get too many hits [:D]

I think the answer is the lock the B-29 to city attacks only as it is simply too big a bomber to be used enmass against things like ports and airfields.

I think that this is not related exclusively to B-29's and their 40 500 lb bomb capability.

If you use large number of any kind of aircraft there will be way too many hits (here is where I am 100% agreeing with Ron)....


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
On Sunday I will artificially enlarge B-17 range to be able to use them in my test scenario. I will also use the B-25 the same way. Stay tuned!

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

Here is one interesting thing o think about for all of us here...

What was the average dispersion of bombs over target (in meters or feet) for US bomber crews in WWII?


I am 100% positive that I read that even late at war and when using ground radar and Norden sight the dispersion of bombs was so high that "surgical" strikes were impossible and the only way to achieve results were using large number of bombers to saturate the target.


And now imagine large port with 50 or 100 ships anchored (i.e. they are in port using WitP game terms). The area of sea covered in such port is large and ships placed there are rather small targets (let's say 100 m long and 15 m wide). The only thing that goes to bomber crew's favor is that they are stationary...


Leo "Apollo11"