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To the Death

 
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To the Death - 2/25/2001 6:56:00 PM   
Ed Cogburn

 

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I've got something some of you might have some fun with. I'm not particulary confident that the what-if scenario in the readme.txt file is possible, as it ultimately comes down to at least a slightly different Adolf Hitler than the one we had historically. But if you can get past that point, then here goes: http://www.xtn.net/~ecogburn/WIRHACK.ZIP It contains a modified wir.exe file that disables Western Air Forces, Partisans, the West and Italian Fronts (they never shatter), and City Allegiances. See the readme.txt for more details. The scenario provided removes all Western help for the Soviets. They are on their own. Have fun! [This message has been edited by Ed Cogburn (edited February 25, 2001).]
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- 2/25/2001 9:35:00 PM   
shane056

 

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Ed, could'nt download it as it's not there to be downloaded, please supply alternate location thanks ...Shane

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Post #: 2
- 2/25/2001 10:57:00 PM   
tsbond

 

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Nice Ed, I have just downloaded but I was just watching the Why We Fight propaganda films last night and was wondering what would happen if Germany would have Liberated the Ukraine instead of destroying half of it and got all of the Ukraine behind them. Guess I will find out shortly.

_____________________________

"What luck for rulers that men do not think." <br />-Adolf Hitler

(in reply to Ed Cogburn)
Post #: 3
- 2/26/2001 2:41:00 AM   
tsbond

 

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Well needless to say Russia did not survive Summer of 42 with almost all land taken except for the Baku area. Moscow and Leningrad fell before first snow fall.

_____________________________

"What luck for rulers that men do not think." <br />-Adolf Hitler

(in reply to Ed Cogburn)
Post #: 4
- 2/26/2001 11:29:00 AM   
Ed Cogburn

 

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quote:

Originally posted by tsbond: Well needless to say Russia did not survive Summer of 42 with almost all land taken except for the Baku area. Moscow and Leningrad fell before first snow fall.
I don't really expect the computer AI to survive this. At even difficulty we all can routinely beat the AI. This might be more interesting human vs human. When I played this solitare with this "USSR on its own" version I made for the first version of WiR, the USSR survived to '43. I haven't run this new version solitare thru the blizzards of '41 to see if the balance and blizzard problems being discussed are having an effect on the outcome. [This message has been edited by Ed Cogburn (edited February 25, 2001).]

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Post #: 5
- 2/26/2001 11:55:00 AM   
Ed Cogburn

 

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quote:

Originally posted by shane056: Ed, could'nt download it as it's not there to be downloaded, please supply alternate location thanks ...Shane
Try again Shane. It was there, but wasn't being "seen". I re-uploaded the zip file this time with its name in lowercase and now it works, very weird. http://www.xtn.net/~ecogburn/wirhack.zip

(in reply to Ed Cogburn)
Post #: 6
- 2/27/2001 1:05:00 AM   
Mist

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn: http://www.xtn.net/~ecogburn/wirhack.zip
I proppose the name for your scenario, Ed! "New adventures of italians in Russia"!

(in reply to Ed Cogburn)
Post #: 7
- 2/27/2001 1:27:00 AM   
John W Cochran

 

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quote:

Originally posted by tsbond: Nice Ed, I have just downloaded but I was just watching the Why We Fight propaganda films last night and was wondering what would happen if Germany would have Liberated the Ukraine instead of destroying half of it and got all of the Ukraine behind them. Guess I will find out shortly.
Exactly -- even given what Germany did to the conquered territory in USSR, hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians still tried to enlist to fight the Soviets. Not only that, but imagine if Denmark hadn't refused passage of the British troops on their way to help Finland against USSR in the mid 30's. Talk about a diff timeline. . .

_____________________________

[email]JohnWCochran@aol.com[/email]

(in reply to Ed Cogburn)
Post #: 8
- 2/27/2001 1:55:00 AM   
Mist

 

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quote:

Originally posted by John W Cochran: Exactly -- even given what Germany did to the conquered territory in USSR, hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians still tried to enlist to fight the Soviets. Not only that, but imagine if Denmark hadn't refused passage of the British troops on their way to help Finland against USSR in the mid 30's. Talk about a diff timeline. . .
Why wouldn't you talk about Axis allied with USSR and declared war to US? I bet US would be beaten everywhere! Just because of lesser industry capacities and manpower. I wonder why most of Americans here excersize themselves in predicting of results of possible wars with Russia. Are you so affraid of us? Is cold war over? Huh?

(in reply to Ed Cogburn)
Post #: 9
- 2/27/2001 6:31:00 AM   
Yogi Yohan

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Mist: Why wouldn't you talk about Axis allied with USSR and declared war to US?
Indeed, this could easily have happened. The Soviets and Nazis were rather close in 1939-1940. All it would have taken was that the French and British had managed to send their expeditionary force to Finland for the III Reich and the Soviet Union to be brothers in arms. It is rather drole to read the statements from west-european Communist newspapers from this time. They were trying to present Germany as a progressive force for peace and France and Britain as Imperialist agressors. LOL!

(in reply to Ed Cogburn)
Post #: 10
- 2/27/2001 9:35:00 AM   
tsbond

 

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It is not a personal offense Mist I am just talking about the "what if" scenario. It is a fact that Ukraine wanted out of the Soviet Union and that many hoped that Germany would free them. When I say Russia or Germany this or that I do not point fingers at the Russian people or Germans people only at politics and armies. If you want to discuss the Axis-Soviet pact to rid the world of the US by all means lets I will not take offense and would most likely find it interesting. It is just that the chances of a Axis-Soviet Pact to fight the US would be much more unlikely then say English landing troops in Finland or the Ukrainians rising up to help Germany to remove the Soviet yoke. These things almost happened (and to some extent did in Ukraine) that is the reason we discuss the chances of it happening. Russia invading the US or Germany would be near impossible. So no offense, playing wargames is not much more then an intelectual challenge to change history in what we think should have happened or to probe the "what if" scenario.

_____________________________

"What luck for rulers that men do not think." <br />-Adolf Hitler

(in reply to Ed Cogburn)
Post #: 11
- 2/27/2001 9:40:00 AM   
Ed Cogburn

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Mist: I proppose the name for your scenario, Ed! "New adventures of italians in Russia"!
Actually, I believe my alternate history would require the Italians to remain busy expanding and policing their Mediterranean empire and holding off possible problems with Commonwealth countries causing problems from the east from India. The only reason I left the Italians in the Italian front box, was because this silly game won't let you delete a division. Every slot in the division list must have something in it. Had I gotten my way, the Italians and at least 3 korps of Germans, one armored, would be permanently out of the game to represent forces needed to deal with Greece, and insurgencies in the Mediterranean, France and the Middle East. The security divisions would also have gone too as they aren't needed anymore to deal with partisans. I would also have removed Italian factories to represent their total focus on supporting their own forces. If this game ever allows the deletion of divisions I'll "fix" this problem in my scenario. The only thing I can do is suggest to players that forces in the Italian Front are *not* available for the entire game, do not change Italian factories to producing German equipment, and the replacement level must be maintained at a high mark, but since units in the Fronts no longer shatter, once the units in the Italian front reach their replacement marks, they'll never need any more reinforcments. I would really like to fix this by deleting divisions and factories instead. [This message has been edited by Ed Cogburn (edited February 26, 2001).]

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Post #: 12
- 2/27/2001 9:53:00 AM   
Ed Cogburn

 

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quote:

Originally posted by tsbond: It is not a personal offense Mist I am just talking about the "what if" scenario. It is a fact that Ukraine wanted out of the Soviet Union and that many hoped that Germany would free them.
It wasn't just Ukrainians either. The USSR was made up of many different cultures, and in most of these cultures there was a desire to be free of communism or at least free of Russian dominance. Witness the extensive, rapid breakup of the USSR, and reactions of peoples like the ones from Chechnya. Its been said there could even have been substantial volunteers from among the Russians themselves, for ideological (anti-communist) reasons. If we had had a clever cunning Hitler instead of a brutal, arrogant, maniacally aggressive one, the world might have turned out very differently than now. [This message has been edited by Ed Cogburn (edited February 26, 2001).]

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- 2/27/2001 10:36:00 AM   
NEON DEON

 

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QUOTES by MIST: Why wouldn't you talk about Axis allied with USSR and declared war to US? I bet US would be beaten everywhere! ----------------------------------------- REPLY: Ok ill bite. Mist, before I assume anything I have to ask you. Do you mean the Continental US. Too? ------------------------------------------- QUOTE: Just because of lesser industry capacities and manpower. -------------------------------------------- REPLY: Economically I guess it would have to boil down to the year that you pick. What year? Manpower would be an interesting dilemma for the US. Don’t know if the US could have applied a modern army in the thirties to make up for the difference. ------------------------------------------- QUOTE: I wonder why most of Americans here excursive themselves in predicting of results of possible wars with Russia. ------------------------------------------ REPLY: Back at ya. I wonder why you want to try to predict a possible war against the US in the 30s? -------------------------------------------- QUOTE: Are you so afraid of us? -------------------------------------------- REPLY: I am afraid of any country that has nuclear weapons and the capability to use them. I also hope those countries are just as scared as I. -------------------------------------------- Quote: Is cold war over? Huh? --------------------------------------------- REPLY: Apparently for you it isn’t.

(in reply to Ed Cogburn)
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- 2/27/2001 10:55:00 PM   
Nemesis

 

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"Not only that, but imagine if Denmark hadn't refused passage of the British troops on their way to help Finland against USSR in the mid 30's." Huh? I suppose you mean Winter War, which took place in 1939-40. And it was swedes who didn't want troops using their terrotory on their way to Finland. The sad reality of that incident is that UK and others had no intention of helping Finland. They were mainly interested in securing the natural resources in northern sweden. In practice, no troops would have sent to Finland.

_____________________________

oderint dum metuant

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Post #: 15
- 2/27/2001 11:21:00 PM   
John W Cochran

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis: "Not only that, but imagine if Denmark hadn't refused passage of the British troops on their way to help Finland against USSR in the mid 30's." Huh? I suppose you mean Winter War, which took place in 1939-40. And it was swedes who didn't want troops using their terrotory on their way to Finland. The sad reality of that incident is that UK and others had no intention of helping Finland. They were mainly interested in securing the natural resources in northern sweden. In practice, no troops would have sent to Finland.
Sorry about that. For some reason I remembered it as Denmark refusing the ships passage through the straights -- the time frame was a total guess on my part. One good thing about this forum, there will always be a kind soul willing to correct any errors. . .

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Post #: 16
- 2/28/2001 12:01:00 AM   
Optha

 

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Hitler/stalin cooperation Ther have been a cooperation, even if both sides dont trust each other. Allover, Hitler invade Russia because he has no option for taking the initiative in the western sphere, after loosing the aircombat over England. On the other side, Stalins knows, that his forces are not ready for fight (after execute most of his officers some time before). Any ideas what could happen, if german managed the planned invasion of England?

(in reply to Ed Cogburn)
Post #: 17
- 2/28/2001 12:14:00 AM   
Mist

 

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ouchies! I did not mean to turn innocent Ed's post into megathread. Sorry, Ed. I expected some resonance about it, but I did not mean to offend anyone. And I were not offended in any way. I love matrixboards and respect EVERYONE here. NEON DEON: You can count me retreating, lad. I saw your discussion with Ed, and so it is beyond my power to argue with you. Sorry and thank you for quite interesting reply. [This message has been edited by Mist (edited February 27, 2001).]

(in reply to Ed Cogburn)
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- 2/28/2001 2:14:00 AM   
Grisha


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Suvorov's Icebreaker nonsense aside, from what I've read on the German-Russo Nonaggression Pact was that Stalin felt he had no choice after the western allies showed little interest in an alliance, especially when Poland refused to allow passage for Soviet troops should events require an attack on Germany (The Soviet Union had no direct land route to Germany, and any Soviet attack on Germany would require one. Poland offered the most direct route). Thus, by signing with Germany Stalin felt he was buying time. In a sense, all the allied powers were guilty of not wishing to commit themselves to war with a resurgent, aggressive Germany, but I feel the western allies were more guilty of this than the Soviets. ------------------ Best regards, Greg Leon Guerrero

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Best regards,
Greg Guerrero

(in reply to Ed Cogburn)
Post #: 19
- 2/28/2001 5:06:00 AM   
StratMan

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Optha: Hitler/stalin cooperation Any ideas what could happen, if german managed the planned invasion of England?
Well, I would say that that would entirely be up to the United States, Would they declare war on Germany or not. ed's scenario say's no, they would not declare war on Germany, and I thought that that UK and USA were allies, could be wrong here as I have not had the time to look it up, but I do think that the USA would seriously consider it as they would not be to the liking of having a new world power emerge. On the other hand I do not think that the USA had the political will to start a war in Europe so Ed could be right. If the USA did not declare war on Germany then I do believe that Russia would have fallen after the fall of England, but who really knows. Hitler would still have had to keep those security division's Ed, and I suspect a few more besides, just to police the occupied countries. However I do not think that Hitler would not have to much to worry about any US involvment once England had been taken out of the war, not for a few years anyway. StratMan. He who strikes first, should strike the hardest or he is in a world of ****e...

_____________________________

StratMan
-----------------------------------------

Einstein rules relativity.
Well in theory at least.

(in reply to Ed Cogburn)
Post #: 20
- 2/28/2001 7:26:00 AM   
Mist

 

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Ed: It is an illusion that russians enslaved other peoples in USSR. Russians had not much enjoy and were opressed mostly just like others. I think there would be more correct to say that USSR citizens were enslaved mostly by their own will. Of course russians were used to be dominant nationality in Soviet Union but that does not allow to say that they were masters and other were slaves. And of course not all communists were russians and vice versa. well... I hope that I say clearly... I do not know about pre-war times, but afrer war there were some priveleges of being russian. That's I believe the main reason(among many others) of USSR collapse. I wouldnt extrapolate it to WWII. BTW: it was communists idea to divide USSR to republics by national attribute. Divide and rule. They burried themselves,as a time showed. P.S. Counter example to you, Ed. Belorussia alliance with Russia. Moldova is willing to join. Do they want to be enslaved? [This message has been edited by Mist (edited February 27, 2001).]

(in reply to Ed Cogburn)
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- 2/28/2001 11:15:00 AM   
RickyB

 

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Ed, I like the looks of your scenario although I haven't been able to play it, what with freezing in the blizzards and all. For everyone, what other scenarios could be done? I have a couple in mind. What If: the Germans went on a war footing before attacking the Soviets, instead of in 1943. What if the Soviets did not carry out their purges, raising their readiness and experience. What if the Soviets didn't attack the Finns - so the Finns are out of the war. What if the Germans started production of the Tiger tank sooner, for which early research before the war was put on hold to concentrate on production of current models, or say Panthers were ready for action. Say the Soviets did a better job of digging in prior to the invasion, or had a more advanced T34 ready. A lot of possibilities here, and the editor allows these things to be tried, or even allow a West versus East matchup, although the map would have to be totally redone. At some point I would love to work with anybody on this - I have gotten pretty good at working with the editor, which is by no means user friendly, but it can be done - change factories, AFVs, planes, etc. The hard coded portions of the game make certain things impossible, but a lot can still be done. Anybody want any tips or help with these kind of things, just say so. What is your favorite what if? ------------------ Rick Bancroft Semper Fi

_____________________________

Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi





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Post #: 22
- 2/28/2001 11:50:00 AM   
GDS_Starfury

 

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Mist: Didnt you ever hear of the book Red Storm Rising. Or what I thought was more plausable was Sir Walter Hackets History Of WWIII and The Untold History of WWIII. These last 2 books cover other areas in depth besides central Europe and what effect WW3 would have on them. Very good reading

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Post #: 23
- 2/28/2001 3:28:00 PM   
Mist

 

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quote:

Originally posted by GDS_Starfury: Mist: Didnt you ever hear of the book Red Storm Rising. Or what I thought was more plausable was Sir Walter Hackets History Of WWIII and The Untold History of WWIII. These last 2 books cover other areas in depth besides central Europe and what effect WW3 would have on them. Very good reading
I'll try to find it. Thank you. We have a lot of books being published here. A whole lot of western authors and german commanders of WWII. I have Manstein, Melentin, Donitz, Lidle Hart and some other authors. They are supplied by russian comments which I value very much because they make such books little more than just memories or official history books.

(in reply to Ed Cogburn)
Post #: 24
- 2/28/2001 4:19:00 PM   
Yogi Yohan

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Mist: Ed: It is an illusion that russians enslaved other peoples in USSR. Russians had not much enjoy and were opressed mostly just like others.)
You have a point Mist. All are equal under the yoke. And as you say, the Russians might not have fared any better under Stalinist rule than other nationalities and probably did not feel like a Slavic Master Race. BUT... the non-russian nationalities of the Soviet Union had nationalist sentiments predating the Soviet Union. The Ucraine, for example had been a formally independent state (set up by Germany, by the way) for 1 or 2 years between the end of WW1 and the Russian Civil war. Not to speak of the Caucasian peoples, like the Chechens, who had fought two wars in the 19th Century (the last was 1850 something, I belive) against Russian invaders. All these peoples clearly identified Russia as the the main power base of the Bolzhevik opressors. To be free of one was for them to be free of the other. This is the reason why so many (Ucrainians in particular) welcomed the Germans in 1941. They probably remebered the liberating armies of the Kaiser who had once established an independent Ucraine and hoped the Germans would do it again. And as for Bielorussia and Moldova wanting to mantain ties with Russia... you do realise that Bielorussia is run by a dispicable tyrant (Lukasjenko) who ousted the nationalists from power? And Moldova does NOT want to join with Russa, only the Trans-Dniester, an enclave between Moldova and The Ucraine populated by ethnic Russians who also happen to be die-hard Communists. [This message has been edited by Yogi Yohan (edited February 28, 2001).]

(in reply to Ed Cogburn)
Post #: 25
- 3/1/2001 4:33:00 AM   
Optha

 

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When a regime kills about 8 million people, just for elemination of any opposition, this will be not forgotten in 20 years. Any other land, even a Nazi-germany could use this for a liberation-lie.

(in reply to Ed Cogburn)
Post #: 26
- 3/1/2001 5:36:00 PM   
Ed Cogburn

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Mist: Ed:It is an illusion that russians enslaved other peoples in USSR.
Umm, I'm a little confused here. Where did I mention people being enslaved to the Russians? I said many would like to be out from under Russian dominance, however that doesn't imply they were slaves. It doesn't matter that Stalin oppressed everyone, non-Russians would largely feel oppressed by the Russians, because as far as they were concerned, if it comes from Moscow its Russian.
quote:

P.S. Counter example to you, Ed. Belorussia alliance with Russia. Moldova is willing to join. Do they want to be enslaved?
If you're talking about the present then of course they don't want to be oppressed. The important thing to note here is that now, Russia is a democracy more-or-less, and doesn't have someone like Stalin calling the shots, so those countries have little to fear from closer ties to the new Russia.

(in reply to Ed Cogburn)
Post #: 27
- 3/1/2001 5:40:00 PM   
Ed Cogburn

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Mist: I did not mean to turn innocent Ed's post into megathread. Sorry, Ed.
No problem, on an open forum these things happen. Just look at the threads in the Art of Wargaming forum. Any thread greater then say 35 posts is talking about something that has nothing to do with the original post.
quote:

NEON DEON: You can count me retreating, lad. I saw your discussion with Ed, and so it is beyond my power to argue with you. Sorry and thank you for quite interesting reply.
Smart move, Mist.

(in reply to Ed Cogburn)
Post #: 28
- 3/1/2001 6:00:00 PM   
Ed Cogburn

 

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quote:

Originally posted by RickyB: Ed, I like the looks of your scenario although I haven't been able to play it, what with freezing in the blizzards and all.
The problem with this scenario is you don't see the differences until you've played at least a couple of years into it. The absence of the Western Air Forces is the most important thing, and those forces normally don't really get started until '43. The critical point is '43, since Germany's industries are untouched by bombing, the Germans have a lot of production coming their way.
quote:

For everyone, what other scenarios could be done? I have a couple in mind. What If: the Germans went on a war footing before attacking the Soviets, instead of in 1943. What if the Soviets did not carry out their purges, raising their readiness and experience. What if the Soviets didn't attack the Finns - so the Finns are out of the war.
I like these, although the Finns not being in the war won't have a significant impact in the game. The only factor is that without the Finns' air power, the air groups of the Leningrad front won't be attrited down by the time German air power gets in range, but I don't imagine this being a serious problem for the Germans.
quote:

What if the Germans started production of the Tiger tank sooner, for which early research before the war was put on hold to concentrate on production of current models, or say Panthers were ready for action. Say the Soviets did a better job of digging in prior to the invasion, or had a more advanced T34 ready.
Don't know about these. Consider how small Germany's tank production starts out. If they had the Tiger they couldn't build many of them. The game now has the Tiger coming in '42 anyway. An advanced T34 wouldn't help the Soviets very much early on because the readiness penalties the Soviets suffer under will mean the Soviets would be lucky to see even one quarter of these tanks actually showing up to a fight.

(in reply to Ed Cogburn)
Post #: 29
- 3/1/2001 10:52:00 PM   
RickyB

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn: Don't know about these. Consider how small Germany's tank production starts out. If they had the Tiger they couldn't build many of them. The game now has the Tiger coming in '42 anyway. An advanced T34 wouldn't help the Soviets very much early on because the readiness penalties the Soviets suffer under will mean the Soviets would be lucky to see even one quarter of these tanks actually showing up to a fight.
Ed, Yeah, the Tiger and Panther would only make any real sense if the assumption of ramped up production was implemented also, so the production would be higher. For the Soviets, they would need something to counterbalance it. I think entrenchments and higher readiness/experience what ever from no purge would help in the early going, with stronger tanks available also, but not as much stronger as the German tanks. The big advantage of the Finns for the Axis (in game terms) is when or if Leningrad falls by holding the line without the blizzard penalties. The whole minor nation issue could be looked at, assuming the Soviets did not take over eastern Poland, the Baltic states or Bessarabia and Upper Moldava. Some of this would fit in with the other thread about what would happen in a 1940 invasion. However, territorial changes could make the Axis job too easy, although there are changes that could help that too. Take out the Finns and Rumanians as they may not have gotten actively involved without the Soviets taking their land - the Finns almost for sure wouldn't have, and the Rumanians might have been like the Bulgarians and stayed away from the front lines. This would free up numerous divisional slots that could be used by the Soviets to field a more realistic number of divisions with a higher replacement rate to help fill them up. I have done a little work on this, but it will probably take awhile to get anything major done. ------------------ Rick Bancroft Semper Fi

_____________________________

Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi





(in reply to Ed Cogburn)
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