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many Disappointment with tin - 11/1/2004 3:33:58 PM   
2gaulle

 

Posts: 459
Joined: 2/16/2004
From: Montreal
Status: offline
sory but this time I'm not happy with this matrix Game.

At start I was a figurinist and tin is not close at all for a table top game on both graphic and rules point of view.

about graphic just take a look at Vae-victis magazine, you will see what's it a table top terrain and what's painting

In many way the rules are too simplist. there are no command rule no wing moral. concequence most of the time the unit fight until the end. Until now (i'm at Gaugameles) the macedonien phalange doesn't look like strong on defence or in attack. on the other side the cavalery look like too strong, specialy again infantry.
the only modifier during melee are the kind of weapon. but there are no bonus/malus for battle between diferent kind of unit.
that mean a heavy cavalery with lance will fight in exactly the same way if the fight again infantry , cavalry or chariot


the rules is also unclear about melee.
"small units get ine chance per stand .... large unit get 4 chance per stand" unfortunatly there is no explaination for what is a large/medium or small unit.
many time chariot with only one stand are able to inflic 3 step loss


bugs. too many.
many time during the command phase, the phase is stoped and there is a new moral check.
the game is too slow and the game freeze some time when I want to save it. somewhere a optimisation problem.

last but not least point. it's only possible to play the game as Alexander. there is no way to play the other side, not for the battles not for the campaing.

$64 Ca realy look like too expensive.
Post #: 1
RE: many Disappointment with tin - 11/1/2004 4:07:37 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 33926
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
2gaulle,

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2gaulle
sory but this time I'm not happy with this matrix Game.
At start I was a figurinist and tin is not close at all for a table top game on both graphic and rules point of view.


I'm sorry you are disappointed. As far as graphics, this looks a lot like DBA tables and miniatures I've seen in the past. Granted there are more extravagant affairs, but we were going for keeping it simple, on the difficulty scale of Panzer General.

quote:

about graphic just take a look at Vae-victis magazine, you will see what's it a table top terrain and what's painting


I've played many, many miniatures games and have my own set of armies and terrain of various kinds. Tin Soldiers looks like a lot of tables and battles I've seen. The miniatures are very nicely painted - if you're not seeing that, what kind of video card are you running?

quote:

In many way the rules are too simplist. there are no command rule no wing moral. concequence most of the time the unit fight until the end. Until now (i'm at Gaugameles) the macedonien phalange doesn't look like strong on defence or in attack. on the other side the cavalery look like too strong, specialy again infantry. the only modifier during melee are the kind of weapon. but there are no bonus/malus for battle between diferent kind of unit. that mean a heavy cavalery with lance will fight in exactly the same way if the fight again infantry , cavalry or chariot


Well, yes the rules are somewhat simple and thus easy to learn without detracting from tactics. Your second point I completely disagree with. What do these modifiers do, if not differentiate between weapon and unit types:

Spear/Pike Charging: +2
Mounted Spear: +2
Mounted Lance: +3
Mounted Unit Charging Spears: -4
Scythed Chariot Charging: +1
etc.

There are a lot of differentiating modifiers in there and I find that each type of unit works quite differently within the framework without being too complex. Again, compared to most miniatures rules I've played for ancients and medieval, this at the same or better level of detail and the multi-phased turn and fog of war add to that.

quote:

the rules is also unclear about melee.
"small units get ine chance per stand .... large unit get 4 chance per stand" unfortunatly there is no explaination for what is a large/medium or small unit. many time chariot with only one stand are able to inflic 3 step loss


Well, it's just as with miniatures - you go by the base size. Infantry have small bases, cavalry have medium bases, elephants have large bases. In the end, a single unit gets four chances if at full strength (four small, two medium or one large base). This has also been explained in more detail by Koiosworks here on the forum.

quote:

bugs. too many.
many time during the command phase, the phase is stoped and there is a new moral check.
the game is too slow and the game freeze some time when I want to save it. somewhere a optimisation problem.


Please realize this slowness and freezing you've experienced is not a common issue. In fact, it's affecting as far as I can tell less than 1% of customers so far and Koiosworks is working to resolve it. The last I saw in the support thread on this was a request for you to provide them more information. This game is one of the most stable and trouble-free I've ever tested - with that said, every game will fail on at least one computer - that is the unfortunate nature of PC game development. We can't test for every possible combination but we're willing to work to fix your problem.

quote:

last but not least point. it's only possible to play the game as Alexander. there is no way to play the other side, not for the battles not for the campaing. $64 Ca realy look like too expensive.


Many campaign games follow the same model, because in order to link a campaign, you need a consistent presence. In this case, it's Alexander. Darius, Porus etc. weren't at every battle, but Alexander was. This one does also allow multiplayer on either side in any scenario.

Again, I'm sorry you are disappointed, but the technical issues that are driving much of your frustration are being looked into. Since they don't exist on any test computers or on the vast majority of customer computers, we need you to help us to find the slowness/freezing issue you've experienced and resolve it. Please check the support forum thread and send us your DxDiag file. Thank you.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development


For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to 2gaulle)
Post #: 2
RE: many Disappointment with tin - 11/1/2004 6:05:12 PM   
Clipper1968


Posts: 445
Joined: 7/22/2004
From: LA, Ca
Status: offline
quote:

In many way the rules are too simplist. there are no command rule no wing moral. concequence most of the time the unit fight until the end... on the other side the cavalery look like too strong, specialy again infantry.


I am obliged to agree with 2gaulle about this point but I am probably paticularly demanding.The battle would have been much more reaslistic if the command rules were applied as currently we do everything we want with our units on the battlefield...Even though this simplistic rules the game is very enjoyable and I have achieved with some difficulties the first two battles of the campaign with two major victories.
The graphics are cool even if they could have also been better,but one more time I am too demanding...

quote:

bugs. too many.
many time during the command phase, the phase is stoped and there is a new moral check.
the game is too slow and the game freeze some time when I want to save it. somewhere a optimisation problem.


No problem at all so far.
I just forgot that one time when trying to restart the battle the game froze and I was obliged to close the application.
Anyone has experienced this problem???
Moreover I am wondering if I am running into a cinematic scene issue as it seems to me that it is not correctly displayed.
The scen end in a quite weird way and the comments are quite unaudible:I must set up the volume to the maximum in order to hear something! A presicion:I am not deaf...Any idea would be greatly appreciated.
It is not a great issue as everything is working perfectly during the battles.

I know I am rambling but I want Hannibal for the next episode otherwise I will make myself Hara-Kiri...

quote:

$64 Ca realy look like too expensive.


A little bit in regards of the number of battles... 65 € for DD +boxed version but I forgive you as I am currently enjoying the game;am I too kind???There will be no problem if the shipment reaches my mail box only next year...

_____________________________

"s'instruire pour vaincre"

(in reply to 2gaulle)
Post #: 3
RE: many Disappointment with tin - 11/1/2004 7:56:04 PM   
2gaulle

 

Posts: 459
Joined: 2/16/2004
From: Montreal
Status: offline
quote:

I'm sorry you are disappointed. As far as graphics, this looks a lot like DBA tables and miniatures I've seen in the past.


perhaps in USA but not in Europe. Have you ever seen Vae-victis ?

quote:

Many campaign games follow the same model, because in order to link a campaign, you need a consistent presence. In this case, it's Alexander. Darius, Porus etc. weren't at every battle, but Alexander was. This one does also allow multiplayer on either side in any scenario.


I could agree for the campaign mode but certinly not for the battle mode. It's the first time I'm only able to play one side.
In fact you didn't take the time to develop an AI for Alexander.

< Message edited by 2gaulle -- 11/1/2004 5:57:12 PM >

(in reply to Clipper1968)
Post #: 4
RE: many Disappointment with tin - 11/2/2004 2:48:02 AM   
Arsaces

 

Posts: 39
Joined: 7/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 2gaulle

quote:

I'm sorry you are disappointed. As far as graphics, this looks a lot like DBA tables and miniatures I've seen in the past.


perhaps in USA but not in Europe. Have you ever seen Vae-victis ?

quote:

Many campaign games follow the same model, because in order to link a campaign, you need a consistent presence. In this case, it's Alexander. Darius, Porus etc. weren't at every battle, but Alexander was. This one does also allow multiplayer on either side in any scenario.


I could agree for the campaign mode but certinly not for the battle mode. It's the first time I'm only able to play one side.
In fact you didn't take the time to develop an AI for Alexander.


Cher 2gaulle,

I can only assume that there must be some strange issues with your system.

First off let me say that this game is remarkably bug free. This is all the more amazing, because it has been done by a mere handful of people.

The game has frozen on me once, when I tried to exit with the cards open before me. Apart from that, rien ! mais rien du tout ! No cinematic issues, Pumba - (though the cut scenes are hardly the game's strong point !)

Like Pumba 1968, I think the graphics are pretty nice, myself, and as a regular reader of Vae Victis I'm not quite sure what you mean. The rules may be simple, but they are quite effective. I am all the more puzzled by your comments as you have professed elsewhere your love for the Imagic Great Battles Series. Now those games were really bug-ridden, had a clumsy Windows 3.1 interface, with farcical IA routines, and their rules were even simpler than Tin Soldiers. In Tin Soldiers the scenarios are very well balanced, and the IA is surprisingly strong. Certainly Tin Soldiers has much more depth than the Great Battles series. Don't get me wrong, I payed the Great Battles, (faute de mieux !) but Koios Works has given us a much better and more polished game. I'm still working my way through the campaign (I'm pretty slow, and have a lot of real work these days...) but I can't remember having as much pleasure with a game since....I can't remember !

Though I share your last complaint - I regret that one cannot play the Persians, it would certainly add a lot to the game - this game is a keeper and is going to spend a long time on my system.

I'll certainly buy any new game in the series.

Cheers,

(in reply to 2gaulle)
Post #: 5
RE: many Disappointment with tin - 11/2/2004 2:59:31 AM   
Arsaces

 

Posts: 39
Joined: 7/25/2004
Status: offline
Let me add that I expected lots of bugs - this is the first game of a new, unknown company (Koios Works), and while Matrix has an excellent record for support, some of their releases have not exactly been "bug free". Tin Soldiers/Alexander the Great has really been a nice surprise in that regard.

(in reply to 2gaulle)
Post #: 6
RE: many Disappointment with tin - 11/2/2004 4:55:28 AM   
2gaulle

 

Posts: 459
Joined: 2/16/2004
From: Montreal
Status: offline
quote:

I am all the more puzzled by your comments as you have professed elsewhere your love for the Imagic Great Battles Series.


funy because I never said something like that. Now, in an Historical point of view, Great Battles Series look like more close to history. As a wargame in found the rules more interesting also.

now my point is also to consider the game and the price.
As a game Tin is interesting. the AI is good, it's certainly the better point of Tin but unfortunatly I don't think I will redo the battles sooner. without pbem capability, scenario Editor and with only one side to play it will be for me a "one shot" software. for all those reason with $64 Tin is for me too expensive.

Just take a moment and compare
bin , tin and Campaigns On The Danube
and there price
78, 64 and 25$

as a wargamer I do not made a lot of difference between the last 2 but I made a big one between the 2 first.

(in reply to Arsaces)
Post #: 7
RE: many Disappointment with tin - 11/2/2004 3:56:42 PM   
Clipper1968


Posts: 445
Joined: 7/22/2004
From: LA, Ca
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arsaces

The game has frozen on me once, when I tried to exit with the cards open before me. Apart from that, rien ! mais rien du tout ! No cinematic issues, Pumba - (though the cut scenes are hardly the game's strong point !)


You are a lucky guy!!!I am still trying to sort out this cinematic issues...without any success yet.

quote:


Like Pumba 1968, I think the graphics are pretty nice, myself, and as a regular reader of Vae Victis I'm not quite sure what you mean. The rules may be simple, but they are quite effective. I am all the more puzzled by your comments as you have professed elsewhere your love for the Imagic Great Battles Series.


Was this remark intended to me???

quote:


In Tin Soldiers the scenarios are very well balanced, and the IA is surprisingly strong. Certainly Tin Soldiers has much more depth than the Great Battles series.


Agreed.

quote:


Though I share your last complaint - I regret that one cannot play the Persians, it would certainly add a lot to the game - this game is a keeper and is going to spend a long time on my system.


Completely agree!

quote:


I'll certainly buy any new game in the series.


Probably too...

_____________________________

"s'instruire pour vaincre"

(in reply to Arsaces)
Post #: 8
RE: many Disappointment with tin - 11/2/2004 9:47:38 PM   
jhdeerslayer


Posts: 1182
Joined: 5/25/2002
From: Michigan
Status: offline
I'm a fence sitter on this game. How long does it take to play the game all the way through? I don't have a good feel for $ per hour of play....

(in reply to Clipper1968)
Post #: 9
RE: many Disappointment with tin - 11/3/2004 12:16:26 AM   
Hertston


Posts: 3564
Joined: 8/17/2002
From: Cornwall, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 2gaulle

quote:

I'm sorry you are disappointed. As far as graphics, this looks a lot like DBA tables and miniatures I've seen in the past.


perhaps in USA but not in Europe. Have you ever seen Vae-victis ?



Never heard of it, but I live and game in the UK and have a cabinet full of miniatures behind where I am now sitting, including a 15mm Macedonian army that looks exactly like the figures in the game. Only slightly better painted





quote:

I'm a fence sitter on this game. How long does it take to play the game all the way through? I don't have a good feel for $ per hour of play....



How long is a piece of string ? If you won every scenario first time, not that long. You won't.

(in reply to 2gaulle)
Post #: 10
RE: many Disappointment with tin - 11/3/2004 3:44:40 PM   
Marathon


Posts: 317
Joined: 10/23/2001
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Deerslayer

I'm a fence sitter on this game. How long does it take to play the game all the way through? I don't have a good feel for $ per hour of play....


I have over 30 invested and I have not finished yet.

(in reply to jhdeerslayer)
Post #: 11
RE: many Disappointment with tin - 11/3/2004 8:29:30 PM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline
One of the devs or mods said they played it in about 4 days of average playtime whatever that means.

Personally, I like games with "random" maps and "random" setups after all the origional sceanrios are played. That's just my preference and when I see a game that doesn't have these features, I don't feel I'm getting my moneys worth. I guess we can blame that one on Civilization. After I played it, all games had to compare to it and not many have ever come close.

(in reply to Marathon)
Post #: 12
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