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Leader Descriptions - 8/8/2004 9:50:20 AM   
fbastos


Posts: 826
Joined: 8/7/2004
Status: offline
Folks,

These descriptions seem to be useless, as they seem to just reflect the leadership values:

01-19: Inexperienced
20-39: Adequate
40-59: Promising
60-79: Very Promising
80-99: Brilliant

Did I get it right? Combat skill and the other stuff don't seem to affect that in anything, so you can have a quite brilliant but land-skill-incompetent land commander.

Thanks,
F.

PS: By useless I mean that they do not add any new information; it's easier to just look at the Leadership rather than trying to imagine if one promising commander is more promising than the other one...

< Message edited by fbastos -- 8/8/2004 7:51:49 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Leader Descriptions - 8/9/2004 10:09:25 AM   
Mike Wood


Posts: 2094
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Oakland, California
Status: offline
Hello...

No, the leader descriptions are text descriptions of a variety of characteristics. The specific characteristics tested in the descriptions depends on the leader type.

So, for a very aggressive fellow, with a high air skill and at least moderate administrative skills, the text "He is best qualified to command a fighter squadron" will appear. Each type of group, army and task force have different requirements.

A "quite brilliant, but land-skill-incompetent fellow" will be a poor leader. Being brilliant, he will learn and adapt to new situations more quickly.

Having written this bit of the code and much of the leadership code, I know you can trust the written description. It was added to help you choose commanders.

You can choose to select the Leadership or the Inspiration quality above all. It will not always provide the best leader. Leadership and Inspiration can be thought of as reputation. The text describing the leader is an evaluation based on his service record. They are not the same thing.

Hope this Helps...

Michael Wood

quote:

ORIGINAL: fbastos

Folks,

These descriptions seem to be useless, as they seem to just reflect the leadership values:

01-19: Inexperienced
20-39: Adequate
40-59: Promising
60-79: Very Promising
80-99: Brilliant

Did I get it right? Combat skill and the other stuff don't seem to affect that in anything, so you can have a quite brilliant but land-skill-incompetent land commander.

Thanks,
F.

PS: By useless I mean that they do not add any new information; it's easier to just look at the Leadership rather than trying to imagine if one promising commander is more promising than the other one...

(in reply to fbastos)
Post #: 2
RE: Leader Descriptions - 8/9/2004 1:08:31 PM   
Culiacan Mexico

 

Posts: 8348
Joined: 11/10/2000
From: Bad Windsheim Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood
Hello...

…Having written this bit of the code and much of the leadership code, I know you can trust the written description. It was added to help you choose commanders.

…You can choose to select the Leadership or the Inspiration quality above all. It will not always provide the best leader… Hope this Helps...
It does for me. You can’t get much more definitive that the man who wrote the code.

_____________________________

"If you love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lig

(in reply to Mike Wood)
Post #: 3
RE: Leader Descriptions - 8/9/2004 5:14:18 PM   
Black Cat

 

Posts: 615
Joined: 7/4/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood

Hello...

No, the leader descriptions are text descriptions of a variety of characteristics. The specific characteristics tested in the descriptions depends on the leader type.

So, for a very aggressive fellow, with a high air skill and at least moderate administrative skills, the text "He is best qualified to command a fighter squadron" will appear. Each type of group, army and task force have different requirements.

A "quite brilliant, but land-skill-incompetent fellow" will be a poor leader. Being brilliant, he will learn and adapt to new situations more quickly.

Having written this bit of the code and much of the leadership code, I know you can trust the written description. It was added to help you choose commanders.

You can choose to select the Leadership or the Inspiration quality above all. It will not always provide the best leader. Leadership and Inspiration can be thought of as reputation. The text describing the leader is an evaluation based on his service record. They are not the same thing.

Hope this Helps...

Michael Wood

quote:

ORIGINAL: fbastos

Folks,

These descriptions seem to be useless, as they seem to just reflect the leadership values:

01-19: Inexperienced
20-39: Adequate
40-59: Promising
60-79: Very Promising
80-99: Brilliant

Did I get it right? Combat skill and the other stuff don't seem to affect that in anything, so you can have a quite brilliant but land-skill-incompetent land commander.

Thanks,
F.

PS: By useless I mean that they do not add any new information; it's easier to just look at the Leadership rather than trying to imagine if one promising commander is more promising than the other one...




Hi Mike.

Is there any way to provide us a downloadable txt. file with all the Commanders and their attributes ?

We could then have at least a hard copy to reference and this would save a huge amount of clicking through the Commanders lists looking at each guy. I really appreciate all the hard work you put into this and like the concept and use it all the time.

I`m sure this would be greatly apprecated by all of us.

(in reply to Mike Wood)
Post #: 4
RE: Leader Descriptions - 8/9/2004 8:46:47 PM   
carnifex


Posts: 1295
Joined: 7/1/2002
From: Latitude 40° 48' 43N Longtitude 74° 7' 29W
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Mike, as long as we got you in this thread, can you provide some insight as to the actual effect of Insipiration?

The manual states it benefits attached leaders. How? Also, what is attached? In the same TF? Same Air Group? Within command range?

Thanks.

(in reply to Black Cat)
Post #: 5
RE: Leader Descriptions - 8/9/2004 8:54:23 PM   
Bradley7735


Posts: 2073
Joined: 7/12/2004
Status: offline
Hi Mike,

Sorry to bother you, but since you wrote the code, you might know the answer.

I was choosing commanders for LCU's in the China theatre (for allies). Sometimes the description said that the commander was best suited for an "Assault" unit. And sometimes it said the commander was best suited for a "front line Combat" (not 100% sure it's combat, but I'm sure it's some offensive unit) unit.

What is the difference between an Assault unit and a front line Combat unit? I know that HQ units are different than Assault and Combat, since some leaders say front line HQ or Rear HQ.

Thanks, Brad

(in reply to fbastos)
Post #: 6
RE: Leader Descriptions - 8/9/2004 9:16:20 PM   
fbastos


Posts: 826
Joined: 8/7/2004
Status: offline
Hello, Mike,

Many thanks! I take back my question... :)

/bow
F.

PS: Hope you don't mind I asking such things; as I said in other thread, everything in the game seems to have a very well though meaning, so I always ask when things don't seem to make sense (it may indicate that I got it wrong).

PS II: Halleluhjah! Finally a confirmation that Administrative skill is used in the game! Hooray!

PS III: Kinda bad we can't directly see the administrative or combat skills, though.. :(

(in reply to Mike Wood)
Post #: 7
RE: Leader Descriptions - 8/9/2004 9:17:45 PM   
Beezle


Posts: 1427
Joined: 7/15/2004
Status: offline
Do the leader's qualities change over the course of the game, or do they always remain as in the initial Scenario database.

_____________________________


Beezle - Rapidly running out of altitude, airspeed and ideas.

(in reply to fbastos)
Post #: 8
RE: Leader Descriptions - 8/9/2004 9:34:29 PM   
fbastos


Posts: 826
Joined: 8/7/2004
Status: offline
I think that rear-area leaders gain weight with time, while combat commanders change in a faster way: first lose the right eye, then the left ear, then a finger, etc...


Hail Douglas Bader!

(in reply to Beezle)
Post #: 9
RE: Leader Descriptions - 8/10/2004 1:28:52 AM   
byron13


Posts: 1575
Joined: 7/27/2001
Status: offline
For the typical line doggie, the description is that he's a promising and careful officer. Some are "very," which I guess is a good thing. I guess careful is supposed to be a good thing, though it borders on cautious in my mind. A few are aggressive or cautious. but 90% are either promising/careful or very promising/careful. Other than a hint that they should be fighter leaders or assault unit leaders or surface fleet commanders, 90% all look the same. If the inspiration and leadership don't mean much, then there's really not a lot separating one from another that we can tell. If someone is best qualified to be a bomber weenie, does that mean he brings positive attributes to a bomber outfit, or is he just not good enough to be a fighter jock?

I guess the best we can do is put the very promising and careful people with the important units (unless aggressive is called for) and try to match assault units to assault leaders.

I would have hoped to have had a little more information for placing unit leaders.

(in reply to fbastos)
Post #: 10
RE: Leader Descriptions - 8/10/2004 9:59:16 AM   
Mike Wood


Posts: 2094
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Oakland, California
Status: offline
Hello...

No. No downloadable text file. The beginning raw characteristics are listed in the data base. Some kind soul might export them to Excel, for you.

Addition of a filters for leader selection screens is on the feature request list. If we are able to get to it, the filters would help.

Bye...

Michael Wood

quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

Hi Mike.

Is there any way to provide us a downloadable txt. file with all the Commanders and their attributes ?

We could then have at least a hard copy to reference and this would save a huge amount of clicking through the Commanders lists looking at each guy. I really appreciate all the hard work you put into this and like the concept and use it all the time.

I`m sure this would be greatly apprecated by all of us.


< Message edited by Mike Wood -- 8/10/2004 8:34:22 AM >

(in reply to Black Cat)
Post #: 11
RE: Leader Descriptions - 8/10/2004 10:05:34 AM   
Mike Wood


Posts: 2094
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Oakland, California
Status: offline
Hello...

Not much. Inspiration, administration and the other characteristics are used in hundreds of calculations. But, leaders with a high Inspiration characteristic help keep morale high in air groups, help keep task forces together in naval combat and help in agressive attacks, such as Assault.

The leader helps the unit to which he is attached. You can tell what unit that is, because his name is written on the orders screen. In the case of a headquarters unit, he will help out all appropriate units within range of the headquarters unit.

Bye...

Michael Wood

quote:

ORIGINAL: carnifex

Mike, as long as we got you in this thread, can you provide some insight as to the actual effect of Insipiration?

The manual states it benefits attached leaders. How? Also, what is attached? In the same TF? Same Air Group? Within command range?

Thanks.

(in reply to carnifex)
Post #: 12
RE: Leader Descriptions - 8/10/2004 10:15:40 AM   
Mike Wood


Posts: 2094
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Oakland, California
Status: offline
Hello...

An assault unit is one with which you plan on assaulting an enemy unit. The leader will have a very high aggressiveness and a good land based skill. Administration, naval and air skills are not very important, in his case. A leader rated more front line combat or combat units will have a high land combat skill, at least a fair administrative skill and some air skill (for AA placement). A leader rated for HQ units will have a higher Administrative skill and a good land combat skill, with some skill in naval and air, as he may have a variety of units within his command radius.

Bye...

Michael Wood

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

Hi Mike,

Sorry to bother you, but since you wrote the code, you might know the answer.

I was choosing commanders for LCU's in the China theatre (for allies). Sometimes the description said that the commander was best suited for an "Assault" unit. And sometimes it said the commander was best suited for a "front line Combat" (not 100% sure it's combat, but I'm sure it's some offensive unit) unit.

What is the difference between an Assault unit and a front line Combat unit? I know that HQ units are different than Assault and Combat, since some leaders say front line HQ or Rear HQ.

Thanks, Brad


< Message edited by Mike Wood -- 8/10/2004 8:35:08 AM >

(in reply to Bradley7735)
Post #: 13
RE: Leader Descriptions - 8/10/2004 10:19:40 AM   
Mike Wood


Posts: 2094
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Oakland, California
Status: offline
Hello...

Leader characteristics may slowly change during the campaign. When this happens, the text description will change.

Bye...

Michael Wood

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beezle

Do the leader's qualities change over the course of the game, or do they always remain as in the initial Scenario database.

(in reply to Beezle)
Post #: 14
RE: Leader Descriptions - 8/10/2004 10:34:02 AM   
Mike Wood


Posts: 2094
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Oakland, California
Status: offline
Hello...

We tried to give the player about the same information he would have, were he the theatre commander, so he could role play, instead of number crunch. The values can be viewed by loading the scenario into the data base editor, if he is so inclined.

As far as what type the player might place in command of a unit, I think the purpose and unit orders would influence the players choice.

The "bomber weenie" generally has a lower air skill and aggressiveness than the fighter commander, but a higher land combat skill (knows where in the infantry might hide and can bomb them better). I usually select a "promising" fellow with a good Inspiration (55% to 60%) and at least an average Leadership (50%+). If I plan on using the group for long range or opposed bombing missions, I prefer a bit higher Inspiration (60%-70%) and a "very promising" fellow, if available.


Bye...

Michael Wood

quote:

ORIGINAL: byron13

For the typical line doggie, the description is that he's a promising and careful officer. Some are "very," which I guess is a good thing. I guess careful is supposed to be a good thing, though it borders on cautious in my mind. A few are aggressive or cautious. but 90% are either promising/careful or very promising/careful. Other than a hint that they should be fighter leaders or assault unit leaders or surface fleet commanders, 90% all look the same. If the inspiration and leadership don't mean much, then there's really not a lot separating one from another that we can tell. If someone is best qualified to be a bomber weenie, does that mean he brings positive attributes to a bomber outfit, or is he just not good enough to be a fighter jock?

I guess the best we can do is put the very promising and careful people with the important units (unless aggressive is called for) and try to match assault units to assault leaders.

I would have hoped to have had a little more information for placing unit leaders.

(in reply to byron13)
Post #: 15
RE: Leader Descriptions - 8/10/2004 3:28:26 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 22595
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood

We tried to give the player about the same information he would have, were he the theatre commander, so he could role play, instead of number crunch. The values can be viewed by loading the scenario into the data base editor, if he is so inclined.


Thanks for all info Mike!

BTW, is there possiblity that numerical values are also visible inside game apart from only textual characteristics explanation (for various "hidden" skills) that exist in current WitP?


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Mike Wood)
Post #: 16
RE: Leader Descriptions - 8/10/2004 5:10:29 PM   
Black Cat

 

Posts: 615
Joined: 7/4/2002
Status: offline
Great Thread !!!

Mike`s answers should be added to the FAQ

Thanks Mike !! Can any of you programming Guy`s do a Excel file from the DB as Mike suggests ??

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 17
RE: Leader Descriptions - 8/10/2004 6:19:33 PM   
carnifex


Posts: 1295
Joined: 7/1/2002
From: Latitude 40° 48' 43N Longtitude 74° 7' 29W
Status: offline
Mike, thank you !

This is the first real information about leadership values we have had and we appreciate it

(in reply to Black Cat)
Post #: 18
RE: Leader Descriptions - 8/10/2004 6:28:09 PM   
Oznoyng

 

Posts: 817
Joined: 4/16/2004
From: Mars
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

Great Thread !!!

Mike`s answers should be added to the FAQ

Thanks Mike !! Can any of you programming Guy`s do a Excel file from the DB as Mike suggests ??

I just completed decoding all of the WitP scenario files. I intend to export all of the files to a relational database. From there, I can extract whatever I want for all scenarios. When I am done, I plan to provide those, probably as .csv's, to Spooky for inclusion on his site.

(in reply to Black Cat)
Post #: 19
RE: Leader Descriptions - 8/10/2004 7:05:32 PM   
Captain Cruft


Posts: 3648
Joined: 3/17/2004
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng
I just completed decoding all of the WitP scenario files. I intend to export all of the files to a relational database. From there, I can extract whatever I want for all scenarios. When I am done, I plan to provide those, probably as .csv's, to Spooky for inclusion on his site.


Nice work, thanks. Why you should have to reverse engineer it though is beyond me ...

(in reply to Oznoyng)
Post #: 20
RE: Leader Descriptions - 8/10/2004 7:14:50 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 22595
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

I just completed decoding all of the WitP scenario files. I intend to export all of the files to a relational database. From there, I can extract whatever I want for all scenarios. When I am done, I plan to provide those, probably as .csv's, to Spooky for inclusion on his site.


_GREAT_ - thanks!

BTW, can you post here the info of each field in every file (i.e. what kind of variable type it is, how many variables per record etc.)?


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
I thought of doing this myself (I have plenty of experence with that kind of work from my flight sims) but with you and "Arkady" alrealy doing great job it does not make any sense to duplicate effort at this stage...

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Oznoyng)
Post #: 21
RE: Leader Descriptions - 8/10/2004 7:18:49 PM   
Beezle


Posts: 1427
Joined: 7/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I just completed decoding all of the WitP scenario files.


WONDERFUL!. Thanks.

quote:

Leader characteristics may slowly change during the campaign. When this happens, the text description will change.


That means we can't rely on the csv file completely but it certainly will give us a start and, importantly, by looking at the real numbers then at the descriptions get a better idea of what the descriptions mean as the game progresses.

_____________________________


Beezle - Rapidly running out of altitude, airspeed and ideas.

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 22
RE: Leader Descriptions - 8/10/2004 8:06:07 PM   
fbastos


Posts: 826
Joined: 8/7/2004
Status: offline
Oh, this is an excellent post.. duly noted on the "aggressive attacks"...

This post could be taken as it is an added to the manual - it's very useful.

Thank you,
F.

(in reply to Mike Wood)
Post #: 23
RE: Leader Descriptions - 8/11/2004 7:03:45 AM   
Oznoyng

 

Posts: 817
Joined: 4/16/2004
From: Mars
Status: offline
I have the file as a .csv, but Spooky is out of town for a couple weeks. anyone care to host it? it is 1.1 MB unzipped, 364kb zipped. (there are 20000 leaders in the file, give or take a few.)

(in reply to fbastos)
Post #: 24
RE: Leader Descriptions - 8/11/2004 1:24:48 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 22595
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

I have the file as a .csv, but Spooky is out of town for a couple weeks. anyone care to host it? it is 1.1 MB unzipped, 364kb zipped. (there are 20000 leaders in the file, give or take a few.)


Can you attach it directly to this post (i.e. forum houses it)?

BTW, is there a limit to attachment at forum?


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Oznoyng)
Post #: 25
RE: Leader Descriptions - 8/11/2004 4:50:18 PM   
Oznoyng

 

Posts: 817
Joined: 4/16/2004
From: Mars
Status: offline
Caltone has agreed to host it for a bit. I'll let him post the link after he uploads it tonight. I will be working on the rest of the files in the following order:

devices
aircraft
classes
locations
ships
airgroups
pilots

I hope to have all the extract routines finished in the next week. I plan to do all scenarios, including Lemurs, when I get the chance. After I am done, I will do more elaborate extracts that tie data together. Off to work!

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 26
RE: Leader Descriptions - 8/11/2004 4:52:49 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 22595
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

Caltone has agreed to host it for a bit. I'll let him post the link after he uploads it tonight. I will be working on the rest of the files in the following order:

devices
aircraft
classes
locations
ships
airgroups
pilots

I hope to have all the extract routines finished in the next week. I plan to do all scenarios, including Lemurs, when I get the chance. After I am done, I will do more elaborate extracts that tie data together. Off to work!


Thanks!

BTW, perhaps ZIPed CSV would fit into 200 KB limit of forum...


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Oznoyng)
Post #: 27
RE: Leader Descriptions - 8/11/2004 6:03:21 PM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5648
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline
I have to ask, what is a csv file and what do you use to read it?

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 28
RE: Leader Descriptions - 8/11/2004 6:11:33 PM   
Oznoyng

 

Posts: 817
Joined: 4/16/2004
From: Mars
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

I have to ask, what is a csv file and what do you use to read it?

CSV stands for comma seperated values. It is a text file in which columns of data are seperated by commas and in which strings are double quoted. It is a common format for exchanging data because it can be read very easily by most programs. You can open it with excell, notepad, and a host of other applications.

(in reply to 2ndACR)
Post #: 29
RE: Leader Descriptions - 8/11/2004 6:13:12 PM   
Oznoyng

 

Posts: 817
Joined: 4/16/2004
From: Mars
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

Caltone has agreed to host it for a bit. I'll let him post the link after he uploads it tonight. I will be working on the rest of the files in the following order:

devices
aircraft
classes
locations
ships
airgroups
pilots

I hope to have all the extract routines finished in the next week. I plan to do all scenarios, including Lemurs, when I get the chance. After I am done, I will do more elaborate extracts that tie data together. Off to work!


Thanks!

BTW, perhaps ZIPed CSV would fit into 200 KB limit of forum...


Leo "Apollo11"

Zipped, the file was 364KB.

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 30
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