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Greatest Military Bluffs - 7/30/2004 5:09:35 AM   
Rooster


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What's your favorite military bluff of all time?

I like Rommel's use of automobiles outfitted with fake Tank exteriors to ward of the Brits until he built up his forces in N. Africa.
Post #: 1
RE: Greatest Military Bluffs - 7/30/2004 5:18:15 AM   
Hexed Gamer


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Saddam's "Mother of all Battles"

Of course when you bluff, its better to have more than a pair of 2s :)

(in reply to Rooster)
Post #: 2
RE: Greatest Military Bluffs - 7/30/2004 5:20:26 AM   
Hexed Gamer


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To be more serious though, dumping Patton opposite the 15th while he was in the proverbial doghouse sure had the Germans convinced.

The fact that Patton himself thought the Pas d Calais was the spot to cross only aided in the ruse.

(in reply to Hexed Gamer)
Post #: 3
RE: Greatest Military Bluffs - 7/30/2004 6:37:45 AM   
Mogami


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Hi, RE Lee on Sept 18, 1862

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Hexed Gamer)
Post #: 4
RE: Greatest Military Bluffs - 7/30/2004 11:43:38 PM   
Blackhorse


Posts: 1926
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From: Eastern US
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Great Moments in (Confederate) Civil War Bluffs

1. Confederate J.E.B Magruder: While facing McClellan during the Peninsular campaign, along the Williamsport lines, Magruder used every trick in the book, (marching one regiment of troops up in full view of enemy troops, circling back under cover, marching up again; officers shouting out commands to non-existant troops; etc.) to convince McClellan that the north was outnumbered. Magruder employed the same old wheezes and successfully pinned down the union troops on the direct road to Richmond while R.E. Lee launched the first attacks of the Seven Days campaign.

2. "Stovepipe" Johnson. A confederate raider who forced the town of Newburgh, Indiana to surrender by threatening them with a "cannon" that was just a piece of stovepipe across a pair of wagon wheels.

3. Nathan Bedford Forrest. Only had two artillery pieces with him while he chased Union Col. Abel Streight's raid. During a parley with Streight, Forrest had the guns brought around-and-around. "Good god, how many guns do you have, that's 18 I've counted already!" exclaimed Streight. "I guess that's all that managed to keep up," said Forrest. Streight surrendered.

4. G.T. Beauregard. To cover the evacuation of Corinth from Halleck's advance, Beauregard had a detail of leather-lunged men and a band railed around to different points along his line all night . . . the train blew its whistle, the band played, the men cheered, creating the illusion of new reinforcements, and covering the sound of the retreat. Union General John Pope braced his men for an expected attack at dawn . . . by which time Beauregard's army was gone.

_____________________________

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Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!

(in reply to Mogami)
Post #: 5
RE: Greatest Military Bluffs - 7/31/2004 12:04:39 AM   
Koper


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Schulmeister bluff in Ulm fortress (1805), when he made all Austrian staff officers believe, that Napoleon is far away, fighting the coup.

One spy, huge victory for France.

Also taking Stettin fortess (5000 soldiers, 300 cannons) by Lasalle with 800 cavalrymen - it was taken only thanks to Infernal Brigade commander insolent behavior.

< Message edited by Koper -- 7/30/2004 10:11:29 PM >

(in reply to Blackhorse)
Post #: 6
RE: Greatest Military Bluffs - 8/7/2004 12:56:32 AM   
Bandkanon

 

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Ancient Chinese history:

During the Romance of the Three Kingdoms era, circa 190 AD to 250 AD:

The greatest strategist of the era was Zhuge Liang (aka Kun Ming), advisor to Liu Bei, King of Shu. Liu Bei took his army out to campaign against the kingdom of Wei and left his country defenseless, assuming that his ally, the kingdom of Wu, would honor their non aggression pact. However, Wu, sensing a perfect oppurtunity to absorb Shu, decided to attack and marched upon the capital city of Shu. When Liu Bei heard the news of the invasion he wanted to turn back. However, the grand strategist, Zhuge Liang, sent a message to his lord from the soon to be beseiged city, advising him to not turn back. Instead, Zhuge Liang, understanding himself and his enemy, opened the gates of the city to the invading force. He stood upon the ramparts and awaited the enemy to come. The enemy was led by Sima Yin, who was himself a man of cunning. Upon seeing the opened gates and Zhuge Liang standing on the ramparts as if to welcome him, Sima instinctively began to suspect that it was all a large trap, a trap that was thought up be Zhuge Liang from the very beginning. The Shu army is probably just around the corner waiting for him to rush into the city. Sima laughed and exclaimed how smart he was for exposing Zhuge Liang's trap and wheeled around and went home.

(in reply to Koper)
Post #: 7
RE: Greatest Military Bluffs - 8/9/2004 9:47:24 PM   
Billy Yank

 

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George Washington took Boston from the British with a bunch of cannons and no gunpowder.

_____________________________

Billy Yank
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."
-- Thorin Oakenshield

(in reply to Bandkanon)
Post #: 8
RE: Greatest Military Bluffs - 8/9/2004 11:01:48 PM   
Dirtdog20


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The British dumping a dead body off the Spanish coast with fake plans for an invasion of Greece instead of Sicily in 43. Even took the time to find a pnumonia victim so it would look like he had drowned from teh fluid in his lungs.

_____________________________

You mean that we gotta take a test after we read this stuff?!?

(in reply to Billy Yank)
Post #: 9
RE: Greatest Military Bluffs - 8/9/2004 11:32:21 PM   
a19999577

 

Posts: 118
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How about the British surrender in Singapore? I think the Japanese were heavily outnumbered and almost out of ammunition, but they bluffed the British into surrendering, didn't they?

(in reply to Dirtdog20)
Post #: 10
RE: Greatest Military Bluffs - 8/10/2004 9:44:50 PM   
Bandkanon

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: a19999577

How about the British surrender in Singapore? I think the Japanese were heavily outnumbered and almost out of ammunition, but they bluffed the British into surrendering, didn't they?



I think the British bluffed themselves to the surrender table. They saw how fast everything collapsed around them and was especially demoralized by the quick capitulation of Hong Kong. They thought the Japanese had alot more than they really had. But that;s not to take credit away from The Tiger of Malaya for recognizing the opportunity to intimidate the British to surrender completely during the talks for a cease fire. It was the Japanese's greatest land victory and every family in Japan received 2 bottles of sake and every child received a box of candy in celebration.

(in reply to a19999577)
Post #: 11
RE: Greatest Military Bluffs - 8/11/2004 12:56:06 AM   
BossGnome

 

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Montgomery did the same trick as rommel, exept in reverse. Right before the battle of el alamein, montgomery disguised his tanks as cars, leading Rommel to believe the American reinforcements had not yet arrived. He thus attacked right away, which led to a debacle and pretty much destroyed the Afrikakorps's offensive potential.

(in reply to Bandkanon)
Post #: 12
RE: Greatest Military Bluffs - 8/11/2004 1:49:15 AM   
JallaTryne


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Who is this girl on your picture, bandkanon? A forgotten female japanese general undercover?

< Message edited by JallaTryne -- 8/10/2004 11:49:40 PM >

(in reply to Bandkanon)
Post #: 13
RE: Greatest Military Bluffs - 8/11/2004 4:44:48 AM   
a19999577

 

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During the Guerra del Pacifico 1879-1884 [War of the Pacific], after the fall of Lima to Chilean troops, General Caceres began to reorganize a new Peruvian Army in the Central Highlands. The Chileans launched an expedition before the new army was ready, so Cáceres 'defended' the key city of Huancayo with an army of llamas outfitted with red kerchiefs in order to look like Peruvian troops. Chilean scouts were convinced by the bluff and withdrew to Lima, giving Caceres precious time to reestablish a front.

(in reply to JallaTryne)
Post #: 14
RE: Greatest Military Bluffs - 8/11/2004 5:47:19 AM   
Bandkanon

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

Who is this girl on your picture, bandkanon? A forgotten female japanese general undercover?


She's this girl I'm trying to get with. I put her there so that I'll realize what a wargame geek I am and that I need to get off my fat ass and get to the gym ASAP.

(in reply to JallaTryne)
Post #: 15
RE: Greatest Military Bluffs - 8/11/2004 8:08:39 PM   
JallaTryne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bandkanon

quote:

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

Who is this girl on your picture, bandkanon? A forgotten female japanese general undercover?


She's this girl I'm trying to get with. I put her there so that I'll realize what a wargame geek I am and that I need to get off my fat ass and get to the gym ASAP.


Smart, the wargaming business, and gaming in general, is not really helping any social life

Not the greatest bluff, but still a kind of bluff. After 2 A-bombs the Japs surrendered, not taking any risk of a 3. A-bomb. But really, who can blame them

(in reply to Bandkanon)
Post #: 16
RE: Greatest Military Bluffs - 8/12/2004 4:54:43 AM   
Major Destruction


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bandkanon

quote:

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

Who is this girl on your picture, bandkanon? A forgotten female japanese general undercover?


She's this girl I'm trying to get with. I put her there so that I'll realize what a wargame geek I am and that I need to get off my fat ass and get to the gym ASAP.


Is this a bluff? Really, your girl is some 200 pound broad with stainless steel teeth, right?

Or what are you doing here?

Lets see, Wargames versus beautiful girl

Oh I know, wargames! ......... no, beautiful girl!........ no! wargames!

What was the question again?

_____________________________

They struggled with a ferocity that was to be expected of brave men fighting with forlorn hope against an enemy who had the advantage of position......knowing that courage was the one thing that would save them.

Julius Caesar, 57 BC

(in reply to Bandkanon)
Post #: 17
RE: Greatest Military Bluffs - 8/13/2004 2:13:21 AM   
Bandkanon

 

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From: Hengchun, Taiwan
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Major Destruction

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bandkanon

quote:

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

Who is this girl on your picture, bandkanon? A forgotten female japanese general undercover?


She's this girl I'm trying to get with. I put her there so that I'll realize what a wargame geek I am and that I need to get off my fat ass and get to the gym ASAP.


Is this a bluff? Really, your girl is some 200 pound broad with stainless steel teeth, right?

Or what are you doing here?

Lets see, Wargames versus beautiful girl

Oh I know, wargames! ......... no, beautiful girl!........ no! wargames!

What was the question again?



Hey she's a cutey alright but that doesn't mean that I can't spend time playing wargames. Having her as an avatar is better than having a picture relating to some wargame like everyone else here.

Anyway, whats wrong with playing wargames and chasing a cutey? Who said they were mutually exclusive?

(in reply to Major Destruction)
Post #: 18
RE: Greatest Military Bluffs - 8/13/2004 6:13:53 AM   
Raverdave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

While facing McClellan during the Peninsular campaign, along the Williamsport lines, Magruder used every trick in the book, (marching one regiment of troops up in full view of enemy troops, circling back under cover, marching up again; officers shouting out commands to non-existant troops; etc.) to convince McClellan that the north was outnumbered. Magruder employed the same old wheezes and successfully pinned down the union troops on the direct road to Richmond while R.E. Lee launched the first attacks of the Seven Days campaign.



McClellan was an idiot.

_____________________________




Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to Blackhorse)
Post #: 19
RE: Greatest Military Bluffs - 8/25/2004 6:50:53 AM   
terje439


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Hmm I think Gøring must win this one, why??
- The Luftwaffe WILL finish of the BEF
- The Luftwaffe WILL defeat RAF
- The Luftwaffe WILL supply the 6th Army


(in reply to Rooster)
Post #: 20
RE: Greatest Military Bluffs - 8/31/2004 6:47:39 AM   
EricDerKönig (HMB)

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439

Hmm I think Gøring must win this one, why??
- The Luftwaffe WILL finish of the BEF
- The Luftwaffe WILL defeat RAF
- The Luftwaffe WILL supply the 6th Army





Usually when bluffing, though, you're trying to fool the enemy, not your own side

(in reply to terje439)
Post #: 21
RE: Greatest Military Bluffs - 8/31/2004 2:51:14 PM   
terje439


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EricDerKönig (HMB)

quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439

Hmm I think Gøring must win this one, why??
- The Luftwaffe WILL finish of the BEF
- The Luftwaffe WILL defeat RAF
- The Luftwaffe WILL supply the 6th Army





Usually when bluffing, though, you're trying to fool the enemy, not your own side



Propably why it worked so well then

(in reply to EricDerKönig (HMB))
Post #: 22
RE: Greatest Military Bluffs - 9/21/2004 10:50:42 AM   
Mogami


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

While facing McClellan during the Peninsular campaign, along the Williamsport lines, Magruder used every trick in the book, (marching one regiment of troops up in full view of enemy troops, circling back under cover, marching up again; officers shouting out commands to non-existant troops; etc.) to convince McClellan that the north was outnumbered. Magruder employed the same old wheezes and successfully pinned down the union troops on the direct road to Richmond while R.E. Lee launched the first attacks of the Seven Days campaign.



McClellan was an idiot.



Hi, He only lost 2 battles. When you add up the numbers he did more damage to the enemy then he suffered. His only problem was he could not tell a victory from a defeat.
Lee is famous because Mac retreated after winning battles. During the 7 days the South only won 2 battles and were whipped in 5. Grant would have been in Richmond and people in the South would consider Lee a bloody fool who got his troops slaughtered.
This is when the AOP had a real numerical advantage. Grant did not have the ratio Mac did but he advanced. He advanced after he supposedly lost a battle so it is quite clear he would have advanced in Mac's place. Hell he would have attacked after the first battle and been in Richmond. (or not. I think he might have ignored Richmond and just pounded Lee into nothing with that 2-1 ratio)
In the 2 battles Mac lost he only used 1 corps (Porters) By day 3 of the 7 days Grant would have had the entire AOP engaged.
So he was not quite an idiot because he did win more often then he lost. But he was blind to the truth because he always thought Sept 17 1862 was his finest hour and it was his worst because it was the greatest waste of opportunity.
The American Civil War remains one of the most difficult to do in war games because almost every Union Player would be able if left alone to win the war before 1863.
A game needs many complicted rules that prevent the Union from coordinating offensives under compentant leaders. It has to treat Union victories as defeats. It has to prevent Union Armies (in the east at least) from using their entire force in a battle.

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 23
RE: Greatest Military Bluffs - 9/21/2004 8:26:08 PM   
Hexed Gamer


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If my woman was as cute as Bandkanon's avatar lass, I highly doubt I could stay focused on my wargames long enough to call it wargaming.

I would just take the next 10 years off and see to it she was there in 10 years as well dude.
You can always wargame, but you will eventually run out of cute lasses that will give you the time of day :)

Stop "trying" to get her, and make it happen.

_____________________________

There is only one Hexed Gamer
http://s3.invisionfree.com/Les_s_Place

(in reply to Mogami)
Post #: 24
RE: Greatest Military Bluffs - 9/22/2004 3:14:24 AM   
IronDuke

 

Posts: 1572
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From: Manchester, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

While facing McClellan during the Peninsular campaign, along the Williamsport lines, Magruder used every trick in the book, (marching one regiment of troops up in full view of enemy troops, circling back under cover, marching up again; officers shouting out commands to non-existant troops; etc.) to convince McClellan that the north was outnumbered. Magruder employed the same old wheezes and successfully pinned down the union troops on the direct road to Richmond while R.E. Lee launched the first attacks of the Seven Days campaign.



McClellan was an idiot.



Hi, He only lost 2 battles. When you add up the numbers he did more damage to the enemy then he suffered. His only problem was he could not tell a victory from a defeat.
Lee is famous because Mac retreated after winning battles. During the 7 days the South only won 2 battles and were whipped in 5. Grant would have been in Richmond and people in the South would consider Lee a bloody fool who got his troops slaughtered.
This is when the AOP had a real numerical advantage. Grant did not have the ratio Mac did but he advanced. He advanced after he supposedly lost a battle so it is quite clear he would have advanced in Mac's place. Hell he would have attacked after the first battle and been in Richmond. (or not. I think he might have ignored Richmond and just pounded Lee into nothing with that 2-1 ratio)
In the 2 battles Mac lost he only used 1 corps (Porters) By day 3 of the 7 days Grant would have had the entire AOP engaged.
So he was not quite an idiot because he did win more often then he lost. But he was blind to the truth because he always thought Sept 17 1862 was his finest hour and it was his worst because it was the greatest waste of opportunity.
The American Civil War remains one of the most difficult to do in war games because almost every Union Player would be able if left alone to win the war before 1863.
A game needs many complicted rules that prevent the Union from coordinating offensives under compentant leaders. It has to treat Union victories as defeats. It has to prevent Union Armies (in the east at least) from using their entire force in a battle.


A good analysis, although I think Raver's had some merit too (despite its brevity, it's accurate IMHO). I think Maclellan was essentially a Quartermaster. You'll know as well as I that raw numbers are only part of the story. He was intimidated during the seven days, a quite debilitating trait in a General I think, and with a 2.1 advantage at Antietam, the infamous order found in the field in his hand and Lee displaying why the strategic offensive was not something he should ever have been overly encouraged to launch, McClellan made a right hash of it. From initial dispositions to piecemeal committment of troops, to failure to press the following day, it was a mess, and effectively condemned the Country to years more. I think a Grant, a Meade, probably even a Hooker would have won that day (Hooker would at least have thrown everything in, and big battalions have a quality of strategy all their very own).

Regards,
IronDuke

(in reply to Mogami)
Post #: 25
RE: Greatest Military Bluffs - 9/22/2004 5:07:58 AM   
Neilster


Posts: 2246
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bandkanon

quote:

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

Who is this girl on your picture, bandkanon? A forgotten female japanese general undercover?


She's this girl I'm trying to get with. I put her there so that I'll realize what a wargame geek I am and that I need to get off my fat ass and get to the gym ASAP.


I knew one of my girls was missing! It's so difficult to keep track of them all. Tell her to return to the palace at once!

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to Bandkanon)
Post #: 26
RE: Greatest Military Bluffs - 9/22/2004 8:14:08 AM   
Larac

 

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Me, in thinking when I broke the left flank in BIN Caratean Sen, I had the Germans on the run.

Needless to say I had myself taken out and shot after the battle was done.

Lee

(in reply to Rooster)
Post #: 27
RE: Greatest Military Bluffs - 9/22/2004 6:57:57 PM   
Mogami


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From: You can't get here from there
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronDuke


A good analysis, although I think Raver's had some merit too (despite its brevity, it's accurate IMHO). I think Maclellan was essentially a Quartermaster. You'll know as well as I that raw numbers are only part of the story. He was intimidated during the seven days, a quite debilitating trait in a General I think, and with a 2.1 advantage at Antietam, the infamous order found in the field in his hand and Lee displaying why the strategic offensive was not something he should ever have been overly encouraged to launch, McClellan made a right hash of it. From initial dispositions to piecemeal committment of troops, to failure to press the following day, it was a mess, and effectively condemned the Country to years more. I think a Grant, a Meade, probably even a Hooker would have won that day (Hooker would at least have thrown everything in, and big battalions have a quality of strategy all their very own).

Regards,
IronDuke


Hi, Well he was not an idiot. He had great mental capacity and even a genius for organazation. He was an excellent engineer. Understood logistics employed arty like a master. I think his single most glaring weakness was his need to be a saviour. For that he had to be facing great odds. He always thought and fought like Lee had 200,000 men. If someone could just have slapped some sense into him he might have been OK. But then there are good reasons to doubt this since long after the war was over and the truth was known he was still writting about the great odds he faced and overcame while in command. In that sense (the abilty to see reality and act accordingly) prehaps he was an idiot.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 9/22/2004 11:59:16 AM >


_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to IronDuke)
Post #: 28
RE: Greatest Military Bluffs - 9/22/2004 8:40:43 PM   
Ancient seaman

 

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Big Mc(),erh i mean Small Mc wasnt stupid or incompetent at all.Very good in defence because of his engineer and organisation skills,his problem seemed to be that he constantly was thinking that Lee has twice his number of men.Now remember that by the time Little Mc was in charge the only way to scoot the enemy was cavalry and Union didnt had capable cavalry till then while the South had the best men and commander of the era in cavalry so it was easy for a already very capable general like Lee to cover his strenght and weakness in a way that whould blunder even the best opponent.
BTW Little Mc was also liked by his men because he was cautious and whoudlnt send them to death like someone else nicknamed "Butcher".
If you want talk for incompetent talk about Mack.

(in reply to Mogami)
Post #: 29
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