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Can artillery fire bases be spotted in the air

 
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Can artillery fire bases be spotted in the air - 3/9/2004 4:34:30 AM   
madmickey

 

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Can artillery fire bases be spotted in the air when they bombard? Is this historical possible and how will future variation of the game handle this situation? How does the game handle sound location of artillery? In future games will specialized air attack be allowed on moving tanks or artillery units like the allied used in Western Europe (P-47 and Typhoon rocket attacks)?
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RE: Can artillery fire bases be spotted in the air - 3/9/2004 4:52:03 AM   
Arjuna


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In real life arty can be spotted from the air, but it's not always that easy. It depends on visibility, the calibre of gun, trajectory, deployement of the guns, shoot and scoot tactics, duration of bombardment not to mention factors affecting the sighting aircraft. We do not simulate this directly, nor does HTTR handle sound location radar. Comprehensive treatment of counter-battery fire is slotted for Game 4 ( Normandy ). At the moment we just give priority to enemy arty units when selecting friendly on-call targets. So if the enemy arty unit has been spotted through normal observation then it will usually get bombarded as a priority. The only competing priority are assaulting enemy line units.

Re air strikes. These do represent fighter bombers and rocket firing typhoons. It's up to you to assign them. If what you are looking for is a more sophisticated air interdiction system, then that is on the wish list but not very high I'm afraid.

< Message edited by Arjuna -- 3/9/2004 12:57:51 PM >


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RE: Can artillery fire bases be spotted in the air - 3/9/2004 2:13:21 PM   
HercMighty


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna
Re air strikes. These do represent fighter bombers and rocket firing typhoons. It's up to you to assign them. If what you are looking for is a more sophisticated air interdiction system, then that is on the wish list but not very high I'm afraid.


Game 5

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RE: Can artillery fire bases be spotted in the air - 3/9/2004 4:41:59 PM   
madmickey

 

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quote:

. We do not simulate this directly, nor does HTTR handle sound location radar.

Re air strikes. These do represent fighter bombers and rocket firing typhoons. It's up to you to assign them. If what you are looking for is a more sophisticated air interdiction system, then that is on the wish list but not very high I'm afraid.



On sound location I was thinking more in line of a recon unit about a mile away determining the approximate location, in addition other units having the ability to tell the approximate direction of fire.
Historically a large percentage of German armor was destroyed by air interdiction on the Western front.

< Message edited by madmickey -- 3/9/2004 2:50:33 PM >

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RE: Can artillery fire bases be spotted in the air - 3/9/2004 9:10:33 PM   
Bertram

 

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quote:

Historically a large percentage of German armor was destroyed by air interdiction on the Western front.



It seems not...

There was a discussion about this on the Battlefront CMAK forum, and a lot of sources were quoted (as usual), making a good point that the destruction of armor by the airforce was severly overrated. It seems weapons were either to light or to difficult to aim.

The main effect of the air force seems to be on the supply and the supporting lighter (or not) armored units, hampering the armor indirectly.



Bertram

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RE: Can artillery fire bases be spotted in the air - 3/9/2004 11:46:19 PM   
madmickey

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bertram

quote:

Historically a large percentage of German armor was destroyed by air interdiction on the Western front.



It seems not...

There was a discussion about this on the Battlefront CMAK forum, and a lot of sources were quoted (as usual), making a good point that the destruction of armor by the airforce was severly overrated. It seems weapons were either to light or to difficult to aim.

The main effect of the air force seems to be on the supply and the supporting lighter (or not) armored units, hampering the armor indirectly.



Bertram


Can you list the post to check at CMAK battlefront.

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RE: Can artillery fire bases be spotted in the air - 3/10/2004 12:58:19 AM   
Arjuna


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Actually, from our own research we found that few main battle tanks were destroyed by inderdiction and ground attack strikes directly aimed at armoured units. However, air strikes by GA aircraft scared the daylights out of the armoured columns. Naturally they felt like sitting ducks strung out along the road moving ever so slowly compared to the aircraft. There are many reports of armoured columns scattering and taking up to an hour and a half to regroup before getting under way again. So the main effect is on morale, cohesion and movement rather than on actual kills.

But please keep in mind that in general interdiction attacks were conducted well behind the forward edge of the battle area ( FEBA ). Typically a bomb line was drawn and tac air had free reign to attack anything beyond it, but were not to engage anything on the near side of the bomb line. For Market Garden the bomb line ran roughly east west through a location some kilometers north of Appeldoorn which is at the extreme northern edge of the Arnhem map. In other words it was out of area for our game and hence why we have not sunk any effort into simulating it. This will largely be the case with our future games as well. Typically we will be representing Corps actions on maps of 30 x 40km. Air activity will be primarily ground attack in direct support rather than interdiction.

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RE: Can artillery fire bases be spotted in the air - 3/10/2004 1:02:26 AM   
EricGuitarJames

 

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I'll quote from Rommel to Field Marshal Keitel on June 12 1944

The enemy is strengthaning himself on land under cover of very strong aircraft formations ... Our own operations are rendered extraordinarily difficult and in part impossible to carry out [owing to] the exceptionally strong, and in some respects overwhelming, superiority of the enemy air force. The enemy has complete command of the air over the battle zone and up to 100 kilometres behind the front and cuts off by day almost all traffic on roads or by-ways or in open country. Manoeuvre by our troops on the field of battle in daylight is thus almost entirely prevented, while the enemy can operate freely ... Troops and staff have to hide by day in areas which afford some cover ... neither our flak nor the Luftwaffe seem capable of of putting a stop to this crippling and destructive operation of the enemy's aircraft. The troops protect themselves as well as they can, but ammunition is scarce and can be supplied only under the most difficult conditions.

Quoted in 'The Right of the Line' by John Terraine p.637

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RE: Can artillery fire bases be spotted in the air - 3/10/2004 1:48:25 AM   
Tzar007


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

I'll quote from Rommel to Field Marshal Keitel on June 12 1944

The enemy is strengthaning himself on land under cover of very strong aircraft formations ... Our own operations are rendered extraordinarily difficult and in part impossible to carry out [owing to] the exceptionally strong, and in some respects overwhelming, superiority of the enemy air force. The enemy has complete command of the air over the battle zone and up to 100 kilometres behind the front and cuts off by day almost all traffic on roads or by-ways or in open country. Manoeuvre by our troops on the field of battle in daylight is thus almost entirely prevented, while the enemy can operate freely ... Troops and staff have to hide by day in areas which afford some cover ... neither our flak nor the Luftwaffe seem capable of of putting a stop to this crippling and destructive operation of the enemy's aircraft. The troops protect themselves as well as they can, but ammunition is scarce and can be supplied only under the most difficult conditions.

Quoted in 'The Right of the Line' by John Terraine p.637


I think this quote reflects well that superior air power could disrupt and put chaos all over the rear areas, where troops are assembling to fight. It does not mean though that the Germans actually lost a lot of men and equipment because of air strikes. But air strikes spread chaos and hell and disrupt troops and tanks, forcing everybody to find some cover in all directions. In Normandy, the Germans could not use open roads and terrains freely during daylight. They had to move through woods or any covered terrain they could find, and this was severely slowing their operations.

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RE: Can artillery fire bases be spotted in the air - 3/10/2004 1:51:49 AM   
Arjuna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tzar007

I think this quote reflects well that superior air power could disrupt and put chaos all over the rear areas, where troops are assembling to fight. It does not mean though that the Germans actually lost a lot of men and equipment because of air strikes. But air strikes spread chaos and hell and disrupt troops and tanks, forcing everybody to find some cover in all directions. In Normandy, the Germans could not use open roads and terrains freely during daylight. They had to move through woods or any covered terrain they could find, and this was severely slowing their operations.


Spot on.

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RE: Can artillery fire bases be spotted in the air - 3/10/2004 10:37:38 PM   
EricGuitarJames

 

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Agree too. Here's a bit more (as if more proof was needed)

On 7th June, Dollmann (7th Army commander) ordered Panzer Lehr up to the front from Chartres in daylight. Its losses included 130 trucks and fuel tankers, 5 tanks and 84 self-propelled guns, half-tracks and other vehicles.

I'll be interested to see how this is modelled in the Panther Normandy game and the forthcoming SSG one too.

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RE: Can artillery fire bases be spotted in the air - 3/11/2004 12:36:45 AM   
Arjuna


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Eric, we'll model it by having the reinforcement strength on arrival reduced to reflect the losses. But we won't be modelling interdiction as such. It occured beyond the area of operations we will be mapping.

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RE: Can artillery fire bases be spotted in the air - 3/11/2004 12:43:40 AM   
Joe 98


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

.......the forthcoming SSG one too......



The supplies will be affected by interdiction.

The arrival date of reinforcements will be delayed.

Those that do arrive will have to travlel slowly up the roads due to interdiction

< Message edited by Joe 98 -- 3/11/2004 9:45:19 AM >

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RE: Can artillery fire bases be spotted in the air - 3/11/2004 1:41:40 AM   
EricGuitarJames

 

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That's fine.

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RE: Can artillery fire bases be spotted in the air - 3/11/2004 2:26:30 AM   
Arjuna


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Good. Another happy customer!

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RE: Can artillery fire bases be spotted in the air - 3/11/2004 2:36:04 AM   
EricGuitarJames

 

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Well Dave I could add reams of requests in making air support more 'player controllable' - choice of aircraft, number of aircraft, type of raid, etc. etc. but frankly that's just not that important to me as long as the game plays well. I just want to focus on the ground battle and if the air support is handled in a relatively abstract matter (by Panther and SSG) then that's fine by me. I mean I have to assume you guys know what you're doing I mean, you do know what you're doing don't you?

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RE: Can artillery fire bases be spotted in the air - 3/11/2004 2:53:15 AM   
madmickey

 

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It may be asking too much but how are mechanical reliability of AFV and tank bogging handled? My understanding was that some German & British tanks, were more unreliable than Sherman, but that information may be as inaccurate as my previous statement.

< Message edited by madmickey -- 3/11/2004 1:03:10 AM >

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RE: Can artillery fire bases be spotted in the air - 3/12/2004 1:16:39 AM   
EricGuitarJames

 

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Hell, none of us are 'accurate' all the time, if no-one poses the questions how would we ever find the right answers? I would suspect that the 'reliability' issue of certain tanks would be dealt with in much the same way as the as air interdeiction, i.e. off map and in a slightly abstract manner reflected in the strength and condition of the troops as they enter the battlefield.

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