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RE: Tips thread - 4/4/2004 2:07:39 AM   
MarkShot


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Recon mission #2 ...




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RE: Tips thread - 4/4/2004 2:10:00 AM   
MarkShot


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The attack mission ...




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RE: Tips thread - 4/4/2004 2:12:14 AM   
MarkShot


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Force order delay for the Irish Guards HQ (the attack force) stands roughly at two hours. (Also, note that this HQ is one of the better ones; shorter delays than what otherwise might be.)




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< Message edited by MarkShot -- 4/4/2004 12:22:10 AM >


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RE: Tips thread - 4/4/2004 2:15:01 AM   
MarkShot


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Orders delay for one of the recon units stands at roughly less than an hour.




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RE: Tips thread - 4/4/2004 2:22:07 AM   
MarkShot


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So, here are the points which I was trying to make through pictures:

(1) Use recon to lead an attack.

(2) You can issue orders concurrently. With no delays, the recon unit will very rapidly out pace the attack force due to its greater speed. For a short haul with order delays temporarily waived, you can have the attack force instantly respond to new orders.

(3) You can issue orders concurrently. With order delays in affect besides the relative movement speeds, the difference in relative delays will have the recon unit move out in advance of the attack force. Of course, you can always lag your attack orders if you want.

(4) Even when order delays are no longer waived, the distance that develops between the recon unit and the attack force should be sufficient that you can issue new orders to the attack force if the recon unit runs into trouble. The intervening distance and slower rate of the attack force's travel should give them adequate time to respond before they too find themselves in trouble.

---

Okay, I have to get back to my game and see how this all turns out. :)

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RE: Tips thread - 4/4/2004 2:43:35 AM   
MarkShot


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Sorry, I just had to add one more screenshot.

Look at this. Recon for my three attacks on the perimeter of the airfield has revealed the roads are free of German road blocks and the FUPs are clear.

Yes, I think it is going to be a simply fine day at the Deelen Airfield today; well, at least, for the British! :)

{By the way, I haven't changed my textures back to take this screenshot for you. These are my preferred textures - the RDOA look. I like the high contrast of it.}




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RE: Tips thread - 4/13/2004 6:56:55 PM   
madmickey

 

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How much and what type of forces including HQ used should you use to protect the arty firebase in Arnhem? In a 9-day engagement do you think the Brits could have hidden their firebase? I tend to think just ordinary sound detection would have lead the Germans to Brits arty base. An art regiment in the wood can be heard not seen. Historically what did the Brits actually plan to do about arty firebase?

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RE: Tips thread - 4/13/2004 7:12:08 PM   
madmickey

 

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How much and what type of forces including HQ used should you use to protect the arty firebase in Arnhem? In a 9-day engagement do you think the Brits could have hidden their firebase? I tend to think just ordinary sound detection would have lead the Germans to Brits arty base. An art regiment in the wood can be heard not seen. Historically what did the Brits actually plan to do about arty firebase?

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RE: Tips thread - 4/13/2004 7:34:15 PM   
madmickey

 

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something is wierd I post a message and it does not show up then I come back and it is posted

< Message edited by madmickey -- 4/13/2004 5:30:10 PM >

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RE: Tips thread - 4/13/2004 8:23:19 PM   
MarkShot


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Madmickey,

Regarding not seeing posts until exit and reenter, it may have to do with the way your browser or proxy server is caching Web pages. Look at your browser cache settings; it should check to see if all objects are current upon each request.

---

I am not sure if you were directing your other questions to me.

Regarding the level of protection ... I am not sure without looking at the particular situation in detail. It's best despite having a security force to have the fire base some place which is less likely to be at an objective, on the way to an objective, or on or slightly off a major travel route. This is based on game play experience and nothing else.

Regarding what the Allies really did and realism issues ... I cannot help you there as I neither have military training nor qualify as an amateur historian. However, I can tell you that Panther and the beta testers do spend a lot of time discussing realism, abstraction, simulation, and game play issues. Arty has often been a topic of discussion throughout the evolution of the series. Also, among Panther and the beta team there are a few former gunners, military veterans, and no lack of amateur historians. Perhaps, one of them can shed some light on your questions.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

< Message edited by MarkShot -- 4/13/2004 6:19:29 PM >


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RE: Tips thread - 4/14/2004 1:54:40 AM   
madmickey

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tzar007

From MarkShot:


Now, let's take a look at each element of this defense and how it works as a whole. The discussion will proceed from the outside to the inside.

* Arty Fire Base *

There is our arty fire base (not seen). If we have just done such a wonderful job of defending Arnhem, then why is it not located in the center of Arnhem. Answer: Because any serious enemy attack will put the attacking elements inside the minimum range of our heavy guns, and they will become useless.

The role of the fire base is to provide supporting fire which attrits, disrupts, and break the enemy's attack. Also, our arty will make it more difficult for the enemy to gather intel about our defense if they only probe it as opposed to come in strength. Our arty we'll easily turn back weak probes.

*

This is fire base I am talking about

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RE: Tips thread - 4/14/2004 3:29:03 AM   
MarkShot


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Okay, I understand now.

I just checked my notes on the Arnhem - Historical Campaign. The one and only time I played it was on 07/29/03. My notes are not very detailed. As best I can determine the fire bases were to the South of Arnhem along Hell's Highway.

Here is an excerpt from my review of the scenario while beta testing. No, I think I'll give the whole summary:

----- my summary -----

Arnhem - The Historical Campaign (Allies, Painful)

A decisive victory! (Sort of my first play through as the first effort I aborted in Day #5.) However, I made a few mistakes in the last 24 hours (which were compounded by order delays) and as hard as it is to believe, I seized the main objective only minutes before the end of the scenario.

Too much happened to try write an AAR.

However, I will try to briefly summarize some key points.

(1) Despite whatever I did, it didn't seem that it was possible to accomplish very much until Day #5. That's when my arty, armor, and motorized infantry began to arrive. Prior to that, it seemed the best thing to do was to try to dig-in and keep out of trouble. I did try to block off various road junctions in the early days. I think that was effective, but only for a day or so. It seems that a Bn blocking a road will slow down the AI, but it will find a way around. If the battle had only lasted two days, then maybe the road blocks would have had an impact.

(2) Around the middle of the scenario, I used most of my para and glider troops to take the Rail Bridge.

(3) For the 5th. to 9th. day, I pushed on Arnhem from three different axis of attack (South, East, and West). I would see progress from midnight to the mid-morning. At night, my movements were harder to spot and allowed me to close with the Germans despite their massive arty and ammo depots. In the morning, I had my own arty support until it would be exhaused by noon. After that, I would be battered and thrown back.

(4) On the 9th. day, the noose tightened around Arnhem and perhaps German artillery was somewhat disrupted in the city.

(5) On the final night, I got in contact with all my commanders. I told them that tomorrow would be the big push: do or die. Every available unit was to push into Arnhem. As soon as artillery support ran out, any security detail for the fire bases would be added to the attack. Arty batteries would relocate at various points along Hell's Highway to secure it with whatever small arms they had available.

(6) Despite some confused and overly zealous orders (like giving up the Rail Bridge) on the final day, the raw drive of the troops carried the day.

-----

I am sorry, but it's not much to help with your question.

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RE: Tips thread - 4/18/2004 1:01:16 AM   
MarkShot


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Okay, here is a hot tip that will keep your HQs safe and out of harms way when an attack has gone well. This tip is hot not only in the sense of being useful, but I just successfully worked this out and tried it not more than 15 minutes ago. Straight from the battlefield to you! :)

Well, let me give you a little background first. {Note, that I have editted that following screenshots a bit to remove some clutter and focus your attention on the relevant items.}

I am tasked with taking Deelen Airfield North of the City of Arnhem. At the moment, I am just looking at taking one of the objectives which is DEELEN WEST.

As I have covered previously in this thread ... I am first conducting recon missions to find a secure route and FUP for the attack force. You see that below with a recon tank platoon. {It's hard to see in the screenshot, but up to the North West there are some minor roads which can be transited.}




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< Message edited by MarkShot -- 4/17/2004 11:10:09 PM >


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RE: Tips thread - 4/18/2004 1:09:23 AM   
MarkShot


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Concurrent with the recon mission I have given orders for the Guards Armored Div HQ to take two Guards Groups and conduct the attack. I can do that, since as we have previously discussed:

(1) The recon element will have long since arrived at the FUP location by the time attack force gets moving. (due to the different force order delays involved)

(2) The attack force will take about 8-9 hours with delay and transit to arrive at the FUP.

(3) The attack force has a force delay of about 3 hours.

I am playing with ORDER DELAYS=PAINFULLY REALISTIC.

So, you can see that I have plenty of time to revise the attack plans, if the recon'ed route or FUP turns out to be a mistake. In fact, I had originally planned to make a much more direct attack, but another recon mission highlighted some problems with that plan.

Below you see the plan for the attack.




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< Message edited by MarkShot -- 4/17/2004 11:40:47 PM >


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RE: Tips thread - 4/18/2004 1:12:25 AM   
MarkShot


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Now, I want to show you the parameter settings for the attack. You will note that I have specified the force to take quickest route and travel as fast as possible. These parameters should be fine, since the recon mission is going to check the route ahead.




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RE: Tips thread - 4/18/2004 1:22:22 AM   
MarkShot


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Alright, let's fast forward ahead 12 hours.

The attack has come off very nicely and achieved its game objective and my objectives for my larger plan.

I have just been informed that the Guards Div HQ is going to proceed to secure the objective. Now, we have a problem. The HQs which were happily directing the fight from 5 kilometers back at the reserve area will apply the same parameters used to reach the FUP in order to secure the attack location.

So, the three HQs are going to find the nearest roads and race to the attack area. And this is where the problem is, since it is quite likely that the route they choose are going to get lead them right to the enemy.

This is what you see below. Observe the clock, the three HQs, the parameters in effect, and the route which they intend to take. {I have to tell you that in this very scenario I have been burned by this careless behavior by my HQs two times already.}




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RE: Tips thread - 4/18/2004 1:27:00 AM   
MarkShot


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So, what can we do protect our HQs who sometimes have more planning skills than they have an urge for self preservation?

It's not too hard to see that the HQs are using the parameters defined for the attack by simply clicking on any of the implicit [M]ove tasks created for the subordinates HQs.

However, we can change route type from QUICKEST to SHORTEST. I recently became aware through some comments Steve "Golf33" Long posted that there are certain parameters which you can change that have an immediate affect despite order delays.

So, that's what I am doing here.




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RE: Tips thread - 4/18/2004 1:28:47 AM   
MarkShot


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Okay, now, let's take a look at the situation just one minute later.

You can see that the HQ's will now head directly to the attack location. Although this may not be the fastest, it should be the safest as the attack just swept the area in front of them.

And they all lived happily ever after. :)




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< Message edited by MarkShot -- 4/17/2004 11:31:59 PM >


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RE: Tips thread - 4/18/2004 1:43:45 AM   
MarkShot


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I have to get back to my battle to take Deelen Airfield and testing the next patch. :)

Until next time ...

< Message edited by MarkShot -- 4/17/2004 11:46:03 PM >


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RE: Tips thread - 4/19/2004 8:06:15 AM   
Arjuna


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Well done Mark!

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RE: Tips thread - 6/3/2004 4:01:34 PM   
MarkShot


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quote:

Question by CriticalMass

I notice the guide mentions a technique where one can use the "In-Situ" defence as another type of "Delay", great, but, what implications does this have on a static defence where one is "forced" to issue "In-Situ" order to stop the force HQ re-positioning units.


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RE: Tips thread - 6/3/2004 4:02:00 PM   
MarkShot


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First, just to bring everyone up to speed ... you can use "in-situ" formation in lieu of some other formation for [D]efend as a form of short range delaying action. So, normally a unit will retreat/route and then attempt to resume its former position. With "in-situ" it will fallback and then reestablish itself whereever it currently is which should be just somewhat out of range of the enemy, but in his intended path.

I would think that "in-situ" defense for the purpose of delaying the enemy (as opposed to just overriding an AI HQ) is most useful when that static defense is in relatively homogenous closed terrain and being done more as a screening action. Why?

(1) If the environment only provides a few key terrain features, then you probably want to attempt to reoccupy your former positions if the advancing enemy gets thrown back. Otherwise, your unit could end up being left highly exposed. Also, remember that units that reoccupy previously improved (dug-in or entrenched) positions, then go through the position improving process faster as compared to a map location which was never improved. {Note: the game tracks this on the map, but you cannot see it. By the way, I have requested for such position improvements to be made visible to the player.}

(2) If it's homogenous close terrain, then whereever the unit stops to recover should be relatively defensible. Although their former positions might have previously been improved, the unit will be most vulnerable while it is on the move back to its former position. So, being caught by the enemy deployed in its new position is probably preferable to being caught on the move on the way back its former position.

(3) In homogenous close terrain, the unit which falls back has a better chance of being out of LOS of the enemy for some time (so that it can get dug-in) and the enemy advance may be slower than an advance over open ground.

(4) This haphazard giving up ground is more appropriate for a screening force than your main line of resistance. Since this giving up ground is not something which you can easily control, it is likely that holes will be left in your line. For your main line of resistance, holes are not a good thing, since it is your last and best hope to turn back the enemy's assault. However for a screening force, its mission is somewhat different. It is mainly attended to slow the enemy and to maintain contact with the enemy in order to provide you with intel, time to deal with the developing situation, and an opportunity to apply arty and mortar barrages to weaken and possibly break the enemy advance before it hits your main line of resistance.

I hope that helps.

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RE: Tips thread - 6/3/2004 4:02:20 PM   
MarkShot


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Some more comments ...

I would choose "in-situ" to override the AI if and only if, the my units are dug-in and I like the positions, footprint, and current facing. Otherwise, I would let the AI HQ reorganize its defense as it sees fit ... of course, with some hints from me.

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RE: Tips thread - 9/10/2004 6:30:45 PM   
MarkShot


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Well, it's been quite a while since I have posted on either of the tips threads ...

The page views of these two threads have been steadily climbing. If you add up the current pages views with what they were prior to the hacking of the Matrix Site, then in total it is in the area of 13,000 - 15,000 page views. So, some questions ...

(1) Who is reading this stuff?

(2) Did you read this material prior to purchasing HTTR? If so, did it help with your decision?

(3) Did you read this material after purchasing HTTR? If so, did it help you get more out of the game? What concepts or topics were most helpful?

(4) If I produce some form of materials for COTA, any comments on what would be the greatest value to you?

(5) None of the above {a beta-tester with a stickied thread and keyboard is dangerous and future testers should be resticted to only using the mouse}

Thanks.

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RE: Tips thread - 9/10/2004 8:26:33 PM   
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1. well... me (a while back though)
2. No I had fiddled around with RDOA (for 10 euros in the bargain bin) and thought I'd get HTTR (as it includes the rest of the market garden campaign (NIJMEGEN!))
3. yes, it most certainly did. My first games were spent wondering what to do all the time. After reading your work I wondered half the time.
4. I think you have done and are doing a great job. Keeping it up would make me happy enough.
5. Hmmm... now that I think about it. The mouse may even be too much...

I should thank you!

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RE: Tips thread - 9/10/2004 10:44:02 PM   
mGuyA

 

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I started reading the thread before buying HTTR. It definitely helped me make the decision to buy.

I have continued reading it - there is a lot of info in here, most of which I didn't understand the first time I read it. It helps me with the tweaks of movement and attack.

I still don't know enough to know what I don't know and need help with :)

Thanks for all your posts. FWIW I consider your posts as authoritative for the game.

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RE: Tips thread - 9/10/2004 11:01:02 PM   
JeF


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Mark,

Even though I indeed think that you're dangerous with a sticky thread and a keyboard (esp. for the disk space on this server ) I'd say : keep up !

I only skimmed through the thread. There is a bit too much, sometimes too much detailed info. But I understand that many newcomers want to know the gory details more than I.

A tips thread for CoTA is a must have IMHO.

JeF.

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RE: Tips thread - 1/14/2005 10:14:53 PM   
Toppers


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Good read and well thought out report. I read some of this beore I bought the game and just reread some of it for future use, nice work Soldier keep it up.....

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RE: Tips thread - 7/9/2005 10:15:45 AM   
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Great work MarkShot!

Been reading all of it.
A great resource.

Cheers

Bullman

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RE: Tips thread - 7/9/2005 3:56:25 PM   
MarkShot


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Bullman,

Glad you are finding the information helpful.

Remember there is also a strategy guide available which besides covering game play has a tremendous wealth of historic analysis about the battles.

Enjoy!

PS: Should you have any questions, I'll be offline for about a week, but these days there are many HTTR community experts around to lend a hand.

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