Skip bombing

Uncommon Valor: Campaign for the South Pacific covers the campaigns for New Guinea, New Britain, New Ireland and the Solomon chain.

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Curval
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Skip bombing

Post by Curval »

In the manual, under "Effects of Altitude Selection" it talks about skip bombing...where you set the altitude of the attacking bombers to 100 feet.

I have just discovered that if you do so...even though the experience is above 80 for your groups...don't expect them to even take-off to go after a carrier TF..especially if the enemy has alot of CAP up.

Swoop and I squared off barley 5 hexes from each other...I had more carriers than him...but two were Light Carriers (I am Japanese player). All of my Vals groups had 80+ experience and I really wanted an accurate drop on him, so despite the dangers I set them all to skip bomb the turn before.

None of my strikes took off and a heavy and a light carrier of mine were damaged relatively heavily.

BUT...he lost over 100 SBDs and about 50 TBMs...the bulk of his air wings.
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pasternakski
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Post by pasternakski »

I believe that only medium and heavy bombers can skip bomb. Anything else assigned to 100 feet will try to strafe, and I don't think that carrier based bombers can do that, either.
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Post by bilbow »

Curval wrote:In the manual, under "Effects of Altitude Selection" it talks about skip bombing...where you set the altitude of the attacking bombers to 100 feet.

I have just discovered that if you do so...even though the experience is above 80 for your groups...don't expect them to even take-off to go after a carrier TF..especially if the enemy has alot of CAP up.

Swoop and I squared off barley 5 hexes from each other...I had more carriers than him...but two were Light Carriers (I am Japanese player). All of my Vals groups had 80+ experience and I really wanted an accurate drop on him, so despite the dangers I set them all to skip bomb the turn before.

None of my strikes took off and a heavy and a light carrier of mine were damaged relatively heavily.

BUT...he lost over 100 SBDs and about 50 TBMs...the bulk of his air wings.
Multi-engine bombers only can skip-bomb. They also won't fly unless morale and experioence is quite high, t least over 80. They can be effective, but will take a horrendous morale loss in doing so. In one such raid severl B17 squads with 90+ morale and 80+ experience acheived good hits of a Jap transport TF at sea, but ended up with morale of only 10 and were laid up for a month before flying again. Skip bombing is not worth it save a real emergency situation.
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Post by Snigbert »

Carrier planes cannot skip bomb, only medium/heavy bombers.
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Curval
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Post by Curval »

Snigbert wrote:Carrier planes cannot skip bomb, only medium/heavy bombers.

ahhh...well thanks for putting THAT in the manual. I just checked it..and it does NOT specify non-carrier planes.

So basically by setting them to that altitude I had NO chance to fly missions against his carriers?

I cannot shake my head enough.

Okay then, riddle me this...why didn't my Kate bombers launch...they weren't set to skip bomb and had 40% of the planes availiable for esacort. I had over 100 of them on my carriers.

Is there some hidden frigging rule on that too?

I'm beginning to think I'm just wasting time playing this game.
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mogami
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Save game

Post by mogami »

Hi send the save to Mogami99@aol.com

I'll have to go through and find the particular parts of the manual where it is explained divbombers always attack from a preset height (no matter what altitude you assign. Torpedo planes always attack from a preset altitude (200 for Japan 100 for Allied) Only level bombers skip bomb.
Torpedo planes turn into level bombers at extended range.

Skip bombing is not better then torpedo or dive bombing. It is better then level bombing. (but with penalties)(certain aircraft benifit greatly from using skip bombing (B-17) if they have qualified crew. But they pay for it.

Edit: Hi, Its right in the same section you read to learn about skip bombing. You had to read divebomber and torpedo plane attack rules before reading about skip bombing (section 10.11)
However it does not say level bombers. Only Planes flying Naval attack.
The 1.20 patch update rewords the section from planes flying to Level bombers flying skip bomb......
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Curval
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Post by Curval »

Okay, I sent it.

I'm waiting to hear from you that there was some issue with my carriers being low on endurance or something...and THAT was the reason they didn't launch...but some planes did launch the very next turn in peace-meal fashion from extremely long range and got slaughtered.

This game appears to be porked.

So frustrating because about two weeks ago in game time I made one small mistake and it caused me to miss an opportunity to sink his carriers then. Now this.
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Post by Sand Pebble »

With your CAP set at 60% your carrier planes will never attack a US CV. The US CV's have alot of fighters for CAP so you must set the IJN CAP at 30% to ensure you will have enought escorts. Many a carrier battle was lost to learn this important rule.
Curval
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Post by Curval »

Sand Pebble wrote:With your CAP set at 60% your carrier planes will never attack a US CV. The US CV's have alot of fighters for CAP so you must set the IJN CAP at 30% to ensure you will have enought escorts. Many a carrier battle was lost to learn this important rule.
I would have lost most of my carriers at that level of CAP...and from what I have read 60% is optimum.

and...why then, with the same CAP levels did my Kates and Vals attack at extremely long range?

They didn't attack from 5 hexes, but will at about 10 away?

That makes no sense whatsoever.
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Post by Damien Thorn »

Sand Pebble wrote:With your CAP set at 60% your carrier planes will never attack a US CV. The US CV's have alot of fighters for CAP so you must set the IJN CAP at 30% to ensure you will have enought escorts. Many a carrier battle was lost to learn this important rule.
I ALWAYS set cap at 60% and my planes have never failed to lauch an attack.
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OP points

Post by mogami »

Hi, I'm not certain. If we sent the save from the turn before to one of the programmers they could tell. But I think it was an OP issue.
The bomber groups were set to fly missions and they were in range.
Many of the CV however are in the red and other ships low on fuel as well. If these TF's used their OP refueling then they might not have had enough remaining to to launch strikes (The CAP is launched first) So between refueling and CAP there might not have been enough OP remaining to strike with.
There were only 2 small (7 and 6 AC ) Val groups with morale low enough to account for their not flying.
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Curval
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Post by Curval »

They were still red the next turn..which I will send you.

In that turn I lost 20 or 30 bombers. I was "relatively" happy that no other strikes went out. They would have been chewed up just like my opponent in that turn you saw.

I have enough OP points to get killed from long range but not short?

I guess if the math numbers are crunched that op points are what it will boil down to though.
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Op

Post by mogami »

Hi, I don't like to guess. Before the first engagement (where your bombers did not fly) How far did the TF move? (it might have had to refuel ) But then the next day, even though the TF was still low on fuel if the TF did not move it would have OP for launching strikes.
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Oleg Mastruko
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Post by Oleg Mastruko »

Sorry, but isn't this whole discussion kinda moot?

What could possibly anyone gain from getting his divebombers and Kates to attack using bombs at 100 feet?? It's like asking why can't we give bombardment order to subs. Yes, some subs did bombard shore installations in WW2 (on more occassions that Vals did skip bombing that's for sure) but in UV it's simply senseless.

To original poster - divebombers are simply not meant to be used in this manner. I guess programmers hardcoded that divebombers cannot skip bomb, because they always start their dive from the preset attitude. I can't imagine Val od SBD coming at 100 feet trying to skip bomb - I am pretty sure it was never tried, anyone can enlighten me?

Val is made to divebomb its target, Kate is made to attack it with torpedo, and it is most useful in UV to use them in that way (as they were used in real life).

O.
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Post by Curval »

Oleg Mastruko wrote:Sorry, but isn't this whole discussion kinda moot?

What could possibly anyone gain from getting his divebombers and Kates to attack using bombs at 100 feet?? It's like asking why can't we give bombardment order to subs. Yes, some subs did bombard shore installations in WW2 (on more occassions that Vals did skip bombing that's for sure) but in UV it's simply senseless.

To original poster - divebombers are simply not meant to be used in this manner. I guess programmers hardcoded that divebombers cannot skip bomb, because they always start their dive from the preset attitude. I can't imagine Val od SBD coming at 100 feet trying to skip bomb - I am pretty sure it was never tried, anyone can enlighten me?

Val is made to divebomb its target, Kate is made to attack it with torpedo, and it is most useful in UV to use them in that way (as they were used in real life).

O.
Why even mention skip bombing then in the manual. I know alot about the war in the South Pacific, but obviously not everything INCLUDING the why and wherefores about skip bombing. First I ever heard of it was in the manual. Perhaps you could show me where it specifies that only heavy bombers can skip bomb.

Yes it is a moot point given that the turn is over...but why did I try it? BECAUSE THE FRIGGING MANUAL MENTIONED IT.

I was aware that only group with over 80 experience could do this...I read THAT in the manual. I had more carriers than my opponent and realised that the consequences of trying this might result in alot of lost bombers...but I was trying to win by attrition. In the manual it says that this type of bombing was highly accurate...so if I lost 50 out of 100 bombers in the attempt I was thinking that the other 50 would be deadly accurate.

One explanitory sentance would have been sufficient. Then you could point it out to me and I will shut up about it. It would help greatly if this sentance was in the "Effects of Altitude Selection" section where the skip bombing issue is discussed.
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Calm down

Post by mogami »

The manual does tell how to skip bomb. And if you do not know the difference between divebombers torpedo planes and level bombers you might not understand when the manual describes how to use each one.
(Divebombers and torpedo planes are described first.) In the 1.20 patch the update changes the wording from "airplanes" to "level bombers"
Hopefully this will help people understand.

Only his Val groups were set to 100 feet. The Kates were set to 1000 (so they would have made normal torpedo attacks) The Vals would have to climb before attacking but they should have flown (except their morale was low)
I still feel this was a OP issue.
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Curval
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Post by Curval »

Mogami wrote:The manual does tell how to skip bomb. And if you do not know the difference between divebombers torpedo planes and level bombers you might not understand when the manual describes how to use each one.
(Divebombers and torpedo planes are described first.) In the 1.20 patch the update changes the wording from "airplanes" to "level bombers"
Hopefully this will help people understand.

Only his Val groups were set to 100 feet. The Kates were set to 1000 (so they would have made normal torpedo attacks) The Vals would have to climb before attacking but they should have flown (except their morale was low)
I still feel this was a OP issue.
Mogami,

I'm not a bad guy..or a whiner...but I quote (from the manual)

Section 10.11 Impact of Altitude Selection p.43

"Planes flying a naval attack with an altitude of 100 feet will skip bomb and strafe their target. Skip bombing is a very accurate way to bomb a ship if the experience of the pilots is over 60, but the accuracy falls steeply below 60 and dramatically below 50. Of course, flak from ships will be very intense at 100 feet."

I do know the difference between the plane types very well.

I did not read through each patch update to see if skip bombing was mentioned...

Kates and Vals have the ability to level bomb too btw so I don't see how it would have helped unless the notes on the patch update specifically said "non-carrier" based aircraft.

I didn't set the Kates to try and skip bomb because that seemed to be silly given that their primary role is torpedo bombing.

But interestingly enough I recently met, and bought a house from, a veteran carrier pilot who flew everything from Swordfish to TBMs with the Royal Navy's Fleet Air Arm. He was the guest speaker at the Aces High Convention in Indianapolis. When I told him about this particular issue he said "Why weren't your torpedo bombers set to 100 feet? We dropped as low as possible to prevent the torpedos from flipping end over end upon impact with the water...generally 50 feet or below.

So...I find Oleg's comments in his post somewhat amusing. Did he fly torpedo bombers in the Second World War?
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mogami
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Manual

Post by mogami »

Hi, In the manual in the same section you read about skip bombing if you go higher (before you get to skip bombing) you read about Divebomber and torpedo planes.
Your WW2 friend is correct. In UV torpedo planes do drop down to attack (no matter what altitude you set them to fly at)
Japanese torpedo planes attack from 200 Allied attack from 100 (the manual says 500 but it changed in patches)
So it you set a Kate group to 20,000 it would still drop down to 200 to attack.
Kates can level bomb.
If you attack a ground target Kates are level bombers.
If you attack a target at extended range Kates are level bombers.
Against naval targets in normal range they are always torpedo planes.

I think Vals always divebomb.

The section you quoted has changed. As of Patch 1.20 it reads "Level bombers flying a naval attack set to 100......"
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Curval
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Post by Curval »

Understood..thanks for the clarifications.

Would you not agree then that "level-bombers" should then be changed to "Non-carrier based level-bombers" in future patches? ;) Particularly when you agree that Kates, at least, can indeed level bomb.

Regardless, I think we are safe to assume that the issue at hand is all about operational points and refueling and not about the skip bombing. The subsequent turn to the one you saw the carriers did not move very far..I moved them merely to avoid any potential sub threats, so your theory is sound.

What would those Vals have done had they "had" the required Operational points though? I'd be interested to know. It would be a small point in the manual, but potentially large one for a player in my same position in the future.

If Vals are just doomed to be ack fodder it is a really big issue. If they default to say 1,000 feet to attack the 100 foot option shouldn't even exist for them in my opinion.
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Post by Oleg Mastruko »

Curval wrote: Yes it is a moot point given that the turn is over...but why did I try it? BECAUSE THE FRIGGING MANUAL MENTIONED IT.
If you're criticising the manual for not being clear enough then I am with you on that...

But if you want to know how to skip bomb with Val - then I am telling you that it would be totally useless, anyway, manual or no manual...

O.
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