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Soviet/Russian AP rounds

 
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Soviet/Russian AP rounds - 6/24/2019 6:20:42 PM   
Linda_Sheffield

 

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Could someone clarify what is APDamage parameter stands for???
It described as "Armor penetration at point blank range"...

For example - Amunition #272. It's a 125mm 3BM22. APDamage is set as 460, average tracer speed is 1760.

Now what i don't understand - Tracer speed is match exactly with real life initial speed of projetile - 1760 m/s.

APDamage is 460, closest number in real characteristics is 430mm, which is average penetration capability at 2000 meters with angle=0. That is contradict statement in database tip. Or i'm missing something.

Please clarify how APD value is calculated in database.

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< Message edited by Linda_Sheffield -- 6/24/2019 6:26:28 PM >
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RE: Soviet/Russian AP rounds - 6/24/2019 8:07:49 PM   
exsonic01

 

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Joined: 7/26/2016
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As far as I know, AB devs don't trust Fofanov that much...

Also, I remember that AB use Odermatt equation and his model for calculation of penetration/perforation performance. Please check http://www.longrods.ch/perfcalc.php

< Message edited by exsonic01 -- 6/24/2019 8:08:04 PM >

(in reply to Linda_Sheffield)
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RE: Soviet/Russian AP rounds - 6/24/2019 8:33:49 PM   
Linda_Sheffield

 

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I used that site as an openly published reference. I have other sources as well.
There's still discrepancy in description. Question stays - What range do we have in database values?
Main purpose of my question is to know which value (for what distance - 0 or 2000) i should put there when add new rounds.

P.S. Thnx for the link.

< Message edited by Linda_Sheffield -- 6/24/2019 8:41:21 PM >

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RE: Soviet/Russian AP rounds - 6/24/2019 8:56:47 PM   
exsonic01

 

Posts: 684
Joined: 7/26/2016
From: Dusty town, somewhere inside central valley of CA
Status: online
AB devs don't trust public data, including Jane's and fofanov and etc... or public data are kinda last resort if no other official reports are available. They said they mostly rely on published data and published report in peer-review journal or from national/official agency.

Back in closed beta, I also calculated penetration of several penetrators, and they were not the same with well known estimations. DU shells were particularly underestimated in Odermatt equation, US or Soviet or European. As far as I know, devs fixed this issue.

As far as I know, table itself is done by AB, which use the Odermatt equation, and you cannot put values for the table (is this correct?) You input the shell specs, and AB will calculate the distance - penetration table for you. This is what I know, but I never modded penetrator myself, so I'm not sure if this is correct or not.

< Message edited by exsonic01 -- 6/24/2019 8:57:28 PM >

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RE: Soviet/Russian AP rounds - 6/25/2019 10:02:35 AM   
varangy


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APDamage is the maximum penetration possible (eg. at zero meter range).

Edit: its too bad this forum doesnt have an "off topic" button....

< Message edited by varangy -- 6/25/2019 10:08:16 AM >

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RE: Soviet/Russian AP rounds - 6/25/2019 7:13:15 PM   
nikolas93TS


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Joined: 2/24/2017
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APDamage value is the initial penetration at muzzle, at 0°, and playing out with AP_DamageRange input will give you various penetration values over different distances. Those ranges are to be compared with historical penetration data (usually given at 500m, 1000m, 2500m etc.) until you get as realistic values as possible. Lower AP_DamageRange value means penetration loss over distance will be more pronounced.

In Research forum you can download Armour Penetration Calculator, which is an algorithm we use to calculate armor penetration over different ranges.

As for 3BM22, in game it currently penetrates 460mm at muzzle, and around 400mm at 2km. Indeed, there are sources that gives slightly higher values (420-430mm, but there is also Bauman Moscow State Technical University Ammunition Manual from 2016 that gives 470mm @ 0° at 2km). However, as mentioned, using steel equivalency is a fairly inefficient way of presenting armour, as the interaction between each armour type and penetrator type are unique, and trying to shoehorn the provided protection into one single value against all different types of APFSDS ammo is flawed.

In the specific case of 3BM22, its performance on monolithic homogeneous steel armour is likely to be the same as advertised (aligning with the different numbers provided by different sources), but its performance on complex composite armour of similar mass will invariably be less. The outdated design of the 3BM22 penetrator with a tungsten carbide slug at the tip is known to be highly susceptible to complex armour arrays that incorporate spaced plates, particularly if the array is set at an angle. Like 3BM15, the brittle tungsten carbide slug is susceptible to shattering and the steel penetrator rod can be broken apart with relative ease by a heavy spaced NERA array. As such, any attempts to compare the penetration power of 3BM22 in RHAe against the reported protection level of modern tanks with composite armour will invariably lead to an incorrect conclusion.
3BM22 in-game will punch with ease through any tank with monolithic homogeneous steel armour, will have a chance against early Leopard 2 (hull) and early M1 (hull and turret) but will struggle with anything more modern. That bode well with both Western and Soviets reports, despite having lower RHAe penetration than usually advertised.

< Message edited by nikolas93TS -- 6/25/2019 7:16:02 PM >

(in reply to varangy)
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