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RE: Range increments don't match map scale

 
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RE: Range increments don't match map scale - 4/17/2019 9:56:41 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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I don't know PDF from shinola but I'd be glad to help. I know my way around graphics ( screengrabs / AAR pictures ). And wny don't we use strikethroughs on the obselete text, maybe change the color of it too. I know a little bit about maintaining a thread, I'm looking after the new scenario submissions for the grand list. I'm teachable so let me know what you need and I'll see what I can do. Stipulation: I get to ask questions.

< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 4/17/2019 10:10:54 PM >


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RE: Range increments don't match map scale - 4/17/2019 10:12:47 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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double post, sorry

< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 4/17/2019 10:13:20 PM >


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Post #: 32
RE: Range increments don't match map scale - 4/17/2019 10:59:06 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

Stipulation: I get to ask questions.[/size]




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Post #: 33
RE: Range increments don't match map scale - 4/18/2019 7:08:16 AM   
cathar1244

 

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quote:

But surely it is just as presumptuous to make these assumptions? Seems like if you have to make a presumption it would be better to presume an average value than an extreme value (both units precisely on hexsides)? -- 76mm


My opinion, it would be more obvious to count from hex center (well, we all know how far opinions go )

Modeling "reality" wouldn't be easy, as military units deploy in depth as well as breadth. But then, from what I can tell, the artillery strikes hit only a part of the target (unless the TOAW log file does not log all the combat events associated with an artillery bombardment). So, in one way, the strike is treated as if the defender is deployed in depth, and does not smother the entire unit in artillery fire.

I understand what Bob wrote, but it is less than obvious as far as how the hex range is counted.

Cheers

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Post #: 34
RE: Range increments don't match map scale - 4/30/2019 12:19:17 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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I think the TOAW IV manual ( PDF ) is found at this link:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4390994

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Post #: 35
RE: Range increments don't match map scale - 5/2/2019 7:44:03 PM   
MikeBrough


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Counting ranges from 'front' of the attacker's hex to 'front' of the defender's hex is just about defensible, but what happens when a hex is attacked from opposite directions? Where in the hex is the defender?

Centre of attacker's hex to centre of defender's hex makes more sense and is what is used in all wargames I can remember playing.

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Post #: 36
RE: Range increments don't match map scale - 5/2/2019 8:31:45 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeBrough

Counting ranges from 'front' of the attacker's hex to 'front' of the defender's hex is just about defensible, but what happens when a hex is attacked from opposite directions? Where in the hex is the defender?

Centre of attacker's hex to centre of defender's hex makes more sense and is what is used in all wargames I can remember playing.

If both directions are part of the front lines for the defender, the unit would be snug against both hexsides. And, bombardments across front lines are by far the most common case.

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Post #: 37
RE: Range increments don't match map scale - 5/2/2019 9:32:43 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeBrough

Counting ranges from 'front' of the attacker's hex to 'front' of the defender's hex is just about defensible, but what happens when a hex is attacked from opposite directions? Where in the hex is the defender?

Centre of attacker's hex to centre of defender's hex makes more sense and is what is used in all wargames I can remember playing.


This is a hold over from TOAW volume one. If a gun had a range of 20km the unit as a whole is given a range of 3 hexes. But it didn't only count the hexes in between. It counted center of hex to center of hex. One piece of equipment has a range of 20km. The highlighted unit has a range of three but it can't reach the German units that are four hexes away.








Attachment (1)

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Post #: 38
RE: Range increments don't match map scale - 5/2/2019 9:34:05 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
If both directions are part of the front lines for the defender, the unit would be snug against both hexsides.

I'll bite--why do you think that?

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Post #: 39
RE: Range increments don't match map scale - 5/2/2019 9:37:37 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
If both directions are part of the front lines for the defender, the unit would be snug against both hexsides.

I'll bite--why do you think that?

See post #23.

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Post #: 40
RE: Range increments don't match map scale - 5/2/2019 9:40:48 PM   
Lobster


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This is a ridiculous way to look at range and it will still be ridiculous next week regardless of how we are forced to look at it. In the old TOAW if a unit had a range of 3 hexes it was 3 hexes. Not 3 hexes in between units but three hexes period. I don't have a clue why that was changed. It just confuses things. But it's obvious it will never be changed back to where it used to be.

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Post #: 41
RE: Range increments don't match map scale - 5/2/2019 9:54:39 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

This is a hold over from TOAW volume one. If a gun had a range of 20km the unit as a whole is given a range of 3 hexes. But it didn't only count the hexes in between. It counted center of hex to center of hex. One piece of equipment has a range of 20km. The highlighted unit has a range of three but it can't reach the German units that are four hexes away.




Which is exactly how it works in TOAW IV.

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Post #: 42
RE: Range increments don't match map scale - 5/3/2019 1:56:04 AM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

This is a hold over from TOAW volume one. If a gun had a range of 20km the unit as a whole is given a range of 3 hexes. But it didn't only count the hexes in between. It counted center of hex to center of hex. One piece of equipment has a range of 20km. The highlighted unit has a range of three but it can't reach the German units that are four hexes away.




Which is exactly how it works in TOAW IV.


Exactly. Thank you. My gun has a range of 20km on a 10km per hex map. Why would I want to only reach the front of a hex when the entire hex is target rich? But I can't. Because my gun can only shoot 20km and the target rich environment is farther than that. And if my gun is at the very edge, toes touching the front of the hex, I can only still reach the very front of the third hex. Why? Because I can only shoot 20km and his stuff is over 20km away in the third hex. So even if the guy parks everything he has at the very edge of that third hex I'm not going to do more than throw some dirt at people. You keep talking about front lines. Do they park trucks on the front lines? Do they set up all of their artillery on front lines? Is every man, woman and cook on the front line? If the front line is the third hex and my gun is on my front line 20km away (I can assure you it wouldn't be there but...) exactly how am I going to hit anything. I was in the artillery. And I can tell you, if my gun can only shoot 20km and the target is 20.001km away, all I'm going to do is make a lot of noise and throw some dirt on some people. And then I'm going to catch hell for even trying. Maybe I'll get lucky and the weather gods will smile on my gun or a splinter will get lucky.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 5/3/2019 1:57:27 AM >


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Post #: 43
RE: Range increments don't match map scale - 5/3/2019 2:34:28 AM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

This is a hold over from TOAW volume one. If a gun had a range of 20km the unit as a whole is given a range of 3 hexes. But it didn't only count the hexes in between. It counted center of hex to center of hex. One piece of equipment has a range of 20km. The highlighted unit has a range of three but it can't reach the German units that are four hexes away.




Which is exactly how it works in TOAW IV.


Exactly. Thank you.


Huh?? Did I miss-read that you claimed the game had been changed since TOAW I? It hasn't. This is the way it has always worked.

quote:

My gun has a range of 20km on a 10km per hex map. Why would I want to only reach the front of a hex when the entire hex is target rich? But I can't. Because my gun can only shoot 20km and the target rich environment is farther than that. And if my gun is at the very edge, toes touching the front of the hex, I can only still reach the very front of the third hex. Why? Because I can only shoot 20km and his stuff is over 20km away in the third hex. So even if the guy parks everything he has at the very edge of that third hex I'm not going to do more than throw some dirt at people. You keep talking about front lines. Do they park trucks on the front lines? Do they set up all of their artillery on front lines? Is every man, woman and cook on the front line? If the front line is the third hex and my gun is on my front line 20km away (I can assure you it wouldn't be there but...) exactly how am I going to hit anything. I was in the artillery. And I can tell you, if my gun can only shoot 20km and the target is 20.001km away, all I'm going to do is make a lot of noise and throw some dirt on some people. And then I'm going to catch hell for even trying. Maybe I'll get lucky and the weather gods will smile on my gun or a splinter will get lucky.


So, the range should be 2 hexes unless the gun has 30km range? I've got a 30km range gun that can't reach targets that the bulk of are only about 20km away? Or maybe you have some other magic number (and a rationale for it)?

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Post #: 44
RE: Range increments don't match map scale - 5/3/2019 4:11:07 AM   
Lobster


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That's okay Bob. I'll just do what Steve suggested and fudge the numbers so 20km = 2 hexes. So any range evenly divided by the map scale needs to be reduced by 1. I don't think I have that many to worry about.

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Post #: 45
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