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Dumb Question(s) - 4/11/2019 7:13:09 PM   
Zovs


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So, still installing TOAW IV, in my "haste" I found this URL:

http://alternatewars.com/Games/TOAW/TOAW.htm

And downloaded a ton of old TOAW III scenarios (in particular the McBride ones, I did some play testing for him way back in the day).

Will TOAW III scenarios work in TOAW IV?

Do I need to bother?

Sorry for the hasty questions prior to completing the install...but thanks in advance.

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Post #: 1
RE: Dumb Question(s) - 4/11/2019 7:21:08 PM   
btd64


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Open the old scenario in the TOAW4 editor and save with a new name. And it should work fine....GP

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Post #: 2
RE: Dumb Question(s) - 4/11/2019 7:23:23 PM   
Zovs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: btd64

Open the old scenario in the TOAW4 editor and save with a new name. And it should work fine....GP


Thanks btd64

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Post #: 3
RE: Dumb Question(s) - 4/11/2019 7:24:41 PM   
btd64


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Your welcome....GP

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AKA General Patton

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Post #: 4
RE: Dumb Question(s) - 4/11/2019 7:40:11 PM   
Zovs


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So here is the first really dumb question.

Forgive me, I am old school old wargamer.

What the heck is Steam (I mean I know what steam is, and I know its bad if your in a submarine and something goes boom and the steam starts...)?

Told you it was going to be dumb...

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Post #: 5
RE: Dumb Question(s) - 4/11/2019 7:57:56 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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quote:

What the heck is Steam?

I have a theory that it's some kind of place where you can logon and play TOAW IV from anywhere in the world via computer. But that's just speculation on my part. I have no good idea what in the world it is or how to use it. I'd like to know the answer to your question too.




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Post #: 6
RE: Dumb Question(s) - 4/11/2019 8:40:28 PM   
Shadrach


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Man, I kind of wish I didn't know what Steam is... so much money spent there, and still many games in my "list of shame" i.e. games I bought on impulse but never played

These days lots of games, about 20-30 released each day, most of them total crap. Lots of Japanese anime-games targeted at teenage boys (schoolgirls, big boobs...)

And stay away from the forums, they are truly the cesspit of humanity.

Getting games automagically updated with patches is the one nice thing though...
If you're still curious:
https://store.steampowered.com/

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 7
RE: Dumb Question(s) - 4/11/2019 8:59:17 PM   
sPzAbt653


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Hi Don - Welcome back!

When playing the older scenarios, just keep in mind that they weren't designed with TOAW IV and some can play differently [especially with the new naval model]. It took a lot of time to try and get the scenarios for the release working proper, so anything not in the release could be a little wonky.

Steam - please don't use it, it is third party garbage that wastes our money and the developers time under the veil of 'easy updates and cheap prices'.

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 8
RE: Dumb Question(s) - 4/12/2019 12:28:57 AM   
Raindem

 

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quote:

Will TOAW III scenarios work in TOAW IV?


As a scenario designer desperately trying to get his old scenarios to play correctly in T4, there is more than meets the eye to this question. The scenario may load up and appear to play OK, but there are differences that the observant will notice.

Besides the graphical issues of custom graphic legacy scenarios, several playability issues have been identified. Air combat is different. AA combat is different. Naval combat is different. Supply is different. Depending on the scenario, these things could have a huge impact on how it plays. Scenarios that played fine in T3 may produce totally different results in T4. Don't get me wrong... there are many wonderful changes & improvements in T4. But, IMO, not enough consideration was given to how these upgrades would affect the great body of work that was already out there.

As for Steam, they were that one-hit-wonder band from the 60s, right?

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Post #: 9
RE: Dumb Question(s) - 4/12/2019 12:44:16 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

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quote:

But, IMO, not enough consideration was given to how these upgrades would affect the great body of work that was already out there.

I seem to remember a really big thread as we discussed this at great length about 2 years ago on the development board. There were at least two big projects to take a look at the old scenarios and adjust them to use the new features. I remember us arguing over the changes to gameplay the new game engine was going to cause, quite besides the implementation of the new naval rules. The BTS system by itself demands a new style of gameplay. And the new supply rules act quite differently from the old ones, as you've already pointed out. I predict that the players are going to discover that very few scenarios are going to play the same as the old way. I for one think that's a good thing. They will probably play more realistically now. And as the players venture into the editor's world they will produce mods of existing scenarios left and right now that the editor is a lot easier. I don't think this is quite a crisis yet. There may be a few scenarios that will prove difficult to "fix" and I'm looking at you Curt dude. You can produce some really complex bodies of work. I usually check your scenarios when I'm looking for tips about how to do events right. You're worth your weight in gold.


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I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me. - Isaac Newton

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Post #: 10
RE: Dumb Question(s) - 4/12/2019 1:08:25 AM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raindem

Air combat is different. AA combat is different. Supply is different.


I don't know of any change made in Air Combat or AA Combat.

Supply is only different if the designer opts to use an Overextended Level or to use the improved road divisor. The scenario has to be willfully modified for either.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

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Post #: 11
RE: Dumb Question(s) - 4/12/2019 5:45:47 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 2828
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shadrach

Man, I kind of wish I didn't know what Steam is... so much money spent there, and still many games in my "list of shame" i.e. games I bought on impulse but never played

These days lots of games, about 20-30 released each day, most of them total crap. Lots of Japanese anime-games targeted at teenage boys (schoolgirls, big boobs...)

And stay away from the forums, they are truly the cesspit of humanity.

Getting games automagically updated with patches is the one nice thing though...
If you're still curious:
https://store.steampowered.com/



Thanks for the info, does not sound like my cup of tea.

_____________________________


War in the East/War in the East II - Alpha Test Teams
DG CWIE2 tester/SPWW2 and SPMBT playtester/scenario creator

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Post #: 12
RE: Dumb Question(s) - 4/12/2019 5:49:34 PM   
Zovs


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Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Hi Don - Welcome back!

When playing the older scenarios, just keep in mind that they weren't designed with TOAW IV and some can play differently [especially with the new naval model]. It took a lot of time to try and get the scenarios for the release working proper, so anything not in the release could be a little wonky.

Steam - please don't use it, it is third party garbage that wastes our money and the developers time under the veil of 'easy updates and cheap prices'.


Thanks Steve!

I did download a bunch of scenarios, and I noticed that there is still a lot in the default of TOAW IV, so I am going to pick and choose carefully/wisely.

I can't recall off hand, but do I just add scenarios in the default directories?

C:\Matrix Games\The Operational Art of War IV\Scenarios

Under each folder? That is the installation folder and the default from the game. Trying to get caught up reading the manual, and reading stuff on here as well. Or how do you all do it/add scenarios?

Again, thanks on the Steam warning.

I used to have 4-6 scenarios I created back I think (but can't recall) from TOAW COW, maybe? I'll have to dig around. Someone mentioned I just open it up in the editor and save it, but where and where?

Thanks again and sorry for any and all dumb questions.

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(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 13
RE: Dumb Question(s) - 4/12/2019 5:50:28 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 2828
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raindem

quote:

Will TOAW III scenarios work in TOAW IV?


As a scenario designer desperately trying to get his old scenarios to play correctly in T4, there is more than meets the eye to this question. The scenario may load up and appear to play OK, but there are differences that the observant will notice.

Besides the graphical issues of custom graphic legacy scenarios, several playability issues have been identified. Air combat is different. AA combat is different. Naval combat is different. Supply is different. Depending on the scenario, these things could have a huge impact on how it plays. Scenarios that played fine in T3 may produce totally different results in T4. Don't get me wrong... there are many wonderful changes & improvements in T4. But, IMO, not enough consideration was given to how these upgrades would affect the great body of work that was already out there.

As for Steam, they were that one-hit-wonder band from the 60s, right?

quote:

Air combat is different.


Thanks slowly reading things up to here...and makes sense about old scenarios.

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Post #: 14
RE: Dumb Question(s) - 4/12/2019 6:26:07 PM   
sPzAbt653


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From: east coast, usa
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quote:

I can't recall off hand, but do I just add scenarios in the default directories?

Well, things are different these days, there is now the Windows Movement to Documents. Most other games also do this, so maybe you are familiar. If not, the details are here, let us know if it is still unclear.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4381180

It is my understanding that because of Steam's recent required interference, that some of this may not be true. Others have reported problems, I have not experienced it personally. So, if you have any trouble, just let us know and somebody can get it straight for you. [Again, thanks Steam and please, everybody stop using this middle man rip-off].

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 15
RE: Dumb Question(s) - 4/12/2019 6:31:42 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 8391
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From: east coast, usa
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If it helps make anything clearer, here is a shot from my W7 computer. I have a few folders that I added, like my scenarios in the highlighted one, things I grab from elsewhere in Imports, etc.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 16
RE: Dumb Question(s) - 4/12/2019 6:53:59 PM   
Zovs


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Thanks Steve, that helps. My Documents\My Games\The Operational Art of War IV does not have any Scenarios directory, so I am assuming I'll need to create that. Based on that link you sent it appears so. I am assuming I can name the new sub-folders within Scenarios as per yours for example?

WWII - Asia
WWII - East Front

etc...

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Post #: 17
RE: Dumb Question(s) - 4/12/2019 7:03:43 PM   
Zovs


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Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: online
So for example doing something like this (and then adding scenarios to them when I find them):



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Post #: 18
RE: Dumb Question(s) - 4/12/2019 7:17:47 PM   
Zovs


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From: United States
Status: online
That seems to work. What was a little odd is that I created a few new folders and they are not named the same as the basic game (WWII - North Africa) and it showed up and worked (it was a Afrikia 41 scenario I downloaded). I added one called Modern - Asia and only one scenario, but did not see it off hand cause I thought I'd only see one file, but instead saw the whole lot of them, which is okay.

So I think I got it.

Thanks.

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Post #: 19
RE: Dumb Question(s) - 4/12/2019 9:24:10 PM   
Lobster


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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

So here is the first really dumb question.

Forgive me, I am old school old wargamer.

What the heck is Steam (I mean I know what steam is, and I know its bad if your in a submarine and something goes boom and the steam starts...)?

Told you it was going to be dumb...


Steam is free to try and if you don't like it then uninstall it. You can get a Steam key for your TOAW from Matrix for free. I never rely on someone's opinion because they may have an agenda. I typically check things out for myself. Not everyone is the same and not everyone likes the same things. Give it a try. If you like it fine. If you don't fine. But don't take the word of people who dislike something simply because it isn't something they think they wouldn't like themselves. Steve has said he doesn't like Steam because the Steam version of TOAW took away from dev time for the game. Maybe so but it exposes TOAW to thousands of people who wouldn't know it even exists. He bashes Steam at every opportunity whether or not it's even called for. As far as I know he has never even used it so has no experience for an informed opinion. I used to be like him. I would constantly bash Steam at every turn. I swore I would never use it. Until I tried it. I use it. I like it.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 4/12/2019 9:25:37 PM >


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Post #: 20
RE: Dumb Question(s) - 4/13/2019 4:26:39 AM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

Steve has said he doesn't like Steam because the Steam version of TOAW took away from dev time for the game. Maybe so but it exposes TOAW to thousands of people who wouldn't know it even exists.

And TOAW is worse off for it, as is every other game that has to waste precious development time creating and supporting Steam Versions of their game. The developers and distributors have to play along because it increases revenues, but the public should be aware of the truth, which I only present as I found it by searching the forums and asking questions - many complaints and issues, no real reason to use it, except for people who, if you can believe it, for some reason don't have a clue how to place/locate a file on their computer.

So Don asked and I gave him the details of my investigation into what is, indisputably, a third party leech that is sustained by duping people into thinking it does some service. Anywhere you look you will see people complaining of worthless purchases and statements such as 'Steam is nice IF you get it set up right'. Really? Place the files yourselves you mental cripples. Don't penalize the rest of the world!
So NO I would not try it out, even free of charge, because it offers me nothing [thru some miracle of evolution I know how to copy a file and paste it to another location]. And I see no reason why anyone would try to defend it so vigorously. It's pretty strange.

No further debate please, I gave two reasons why not to use it, but notice that you didn't counter that, you only attacked me. Now can you give ANY reason why it is useful ??

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Post #: 21
RE: Dumb Question(s) - 4/13/2019 6:37:08 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 2564
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From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

Steve has said he doesn't like Steam because the Steam version of TOAW took away from dev time for the game. Maybe so but it exposes TOAW to thousands of people who wouldn't know it even exists.

And TOAW is worse off for it, as is every other game that has to waste precious development time creating and supporting Steam Versions of their game. The developers and distributors have to play along because it increases revenues, but the public should be aware of the truth, which I only present as I found it by searching the forums and asking questions - many complaints and issues, no real reason to use it, except for people who, if you can believe it, for some reason don't have a clue how to place/locate a file on their computer.

So Don asked and I gave him the details of my investigation into what is, indisputably, a third party leech that is sustained by duping people into thinking it does some service. Anywhere you look you will see people complaining of worthless purchases and statements such as 'Steam is nice IF you get it set up right'. Really? Place the files yourselves you mental cripples. Don't penalize the rest of the world!
So NO I would not try it out, even free of charge, because it offers me nothing [thru some miracle of evolution I know how to copy a file and paste it to another location]. And I see no reason why anyone would try to defend it so vigorously. It's pretty strange.

No further debate please, I gave two reasons why not to use it, but notice that you didn't counter that, you only attacked me. Now can you give ANY reason why it is useful ??


I use it. Not because I'm lazy. I can lose my entire hard drive and not have to worry about replacing any games I bought on Steam. I get every update and don't have to go checking everyplace I bought a game to see if there even was an update. I don't have to search multiple websites to see if anyone made a mod. I can put Steam on any computer anywhere and have access to every game I've ever purchased there without lugging around multiple disks. And the only thing I did to 'set up Steam' was to install it. That's all nothing more. Now if you have a hard on for Steam fine, it's your business. But when you tell people it's bad because of personal reasons then who is duping whom? Until you actually use it anything you have to say is second hand information and proves nothing. I did not attack you. Just look around TOAW forum and anyone can see you bashing Steam at every opportunity. I simply stated that fact. Exactly how is that an attack?


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"Getting back to reality...I'll only go as a tourist!"

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Post #: 22
RE: Dumb Question(s) - 4/13/2019 9:52:57 AM   
sPzAbt653


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I simply stated the facts, and you are still attacking me.

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Post #: 23
RE: Dumb Question(s) - 4/13/2019 10:32:28 AM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 11247
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From: Houston, TX
Status: online
Steam development paid for itself with the additional customers it attracted.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

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Post #: 24
RE: Dumb Question(s) - 4/13/2019 11:06:12 AM   
Zovs


Posts: 2828
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: online
So back to my dumb questions, I have noticed that some scenarios (I think mainly the ones I downloaded) show a complexity of 0:0 and units 0:0. What’s that all about?

The others scenarios show actual values that seem to make sense.

_____________________________


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Post #: 25
RE: Dumb Question(s) - 4/13/2019 12:29:51 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 8391
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From: east coast, usa
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Steam development paid for itself with the additional customers it attracted.

That is the developers answer that I said we would receive. It is expected and not a problem. But it doesn't pay me anything, I don't get back the limited development time that has been lost, time that should be spent on the game(s). This is a public/user issue, not a developer issue. I've never said anything negative about the developers, I've only been negative about people using steam, because it hurts the rest of us.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 26
RE: Dumb Question(s) - 4/13/2019 2:02:14 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 2564
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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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My point was simple. Don't depend on the opinions of someone else. They may have an agenda. They may not like how something functions. They may have just had a bad day. If you really want to know if you will like something you don't have to pay for just try it and see. If you don't like it then delete it. The key for TOAW is free, won't cost you a thing. Steam is free, won't cost you a thing. It's entirely up to an individual. No one is the same. That would be boring.



_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"Getting back to reality...I'll only go as a tourist!"

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Post #: 27
RE: Dumb Question(s) - 4/13/2019 4:34:10 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 11247
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

So back to my dumb questions, I have noticed that some scenarios (I think mainly the ones I downloaded) show a complexity of 0:0 and units 0:0. What’s that all about?

The others scenarios show actual values that seem to make sense.

The scenario must be saved under the latest update version to have the values.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 28
RE: Dumb Question(s) - 4/13/2019 4:38:58 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 2828
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: online
Thanks Bob.

_____________________________


War in the East/War in the East II - Alpha Test Teams
DG CWIE2 tester/SPWW2 and SPMBT playtester/scenario creator

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 29
RE: Dumb Question(s) - 4/13/2019 4:58:46 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 11247
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Steam development paid for itself with the additional customers it attracted.

That is the developers answer that I said we would receive. It is expected and not a problem. But it doesn't pay me anything, I don't get back the limited development time that has been lost, time that should be spent on the game(s). This is a public/user issue, not a developer issue. I've never said anything negative about the developers, I've only been negative about people using steam, because it hurts the rest of us.


Everybody benefits from more customers: It keeps Ralph working on a project that he might otherwise abandon. Whatever your wishlist contains, more customers makes those wishes more likely to appear one day.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 30
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