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RE: Upgrading PW: AE .....Real-time on a server - 3/20/2019 11:09:40 PM   
Rusty1961

 

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With today's processing power it is comical to say or think we can't do a game like I suggested. It just takes good programmers now, something this hobby used to have, but doesn't any more.

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RE: Upgrading PW: AE .....Real-time on a server - 3/21/2019 7:42:23 AM   
RangerJoe


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Think of all of the time involved to get everything working correctly. Hobbyists would be able to do it very fast and the risk of burn out is very high.

Why don't you do it all yourself?

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RE: Upgrading PW: AE .....Real-time on a server - 3/21/2019 10:59:37 AM   
Rising-Sun


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From: Clifton Park, NY
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Love that GNB Series, got the Fury in the Pacific. Too bad there isn't any game out there like that with better engines and graphics.

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RE: Upgrading PW: AE .....Real-time on a server - 3/21/2019 10:05:37 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Think of all of the time involved to get everything working correctly. Hobbyists would be able to do it very fast and the risk of burn out is very high.

Why don't you do it all yourself?


+1 to this.

If it "just" takes good programmers and that it's comical to suggest that with today's processing power (which isn't really that relevant...it wasn't relevant a decade ago under original WITP either), then maybe Rusty should just do it.

Also disagree with the notion that this hobby "used to have" good programmers but somehow doesn't anymore. We must be experiencing entirely different gaming universes.

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Post #: 34
RE: Upgrading PW: AE .....Real-time on a server - 3/22/2019 1:45:49 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 12318
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Think of all of the time involved to get everything working correctly. Hobbyists would be able to do it very fast and the risk of burn out is very high.

Why don't you do it all yourself?


+1 to this.

If it "just" takes good programmers and that it's comical to suggest that with today's processing power (which isn't really that relevant...it wasn't relevant a decade ago under original WITP either), then maybe Rusty should just do it.

Also disagree with the notion that this hobby "used to have" good programmers but somehow doesn't anymore. We must be experiencing entirely different gaming universes.

I get the feeling that WITP-AE was a "labor of love", expected to just break even on sales while the current environment is to push out more and more "first-person-shooter" games with dazzling graphics and lots of explosions - just like Hollywood action movies. No wonder kids are getting hooked on Red Bull!

All the really talented coders seem to be going into cyber warfare or cyber scam work ...


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RE: Upgrading PW: AE .....Real-time on a server - 3/22/2019 9:53:35 AM   
Rising-Sun


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A person with good programming skills isn't going to be enough. You gonna need someone with good graphics and art skills, also need someone do the paragraphing and texts and manual design. Debugging the codes, making sure the game running smooth. And finally dealing with WWII details, unless they are willing to share that infos from here with them. Researching these WWII facts can take a lot of man hours and even correction too. Then finally having it copyrighted and place it on the market.

If I had a lot of money to burn or win a lottery ticket that suitable for the tasks, I would support it.

Infact I can do some of these things I mention above, but not all of it.

< Message edited by Rising-Sun -- 3/22/2019 9:55:45 AM >


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RE: Upgrading PW: AE .....Real-time on a server - 3/22/2019 11:59:17 AM   
HansBolter


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Hasn't this already been done?

Isn't HOI a 'real time' strategic simulator?

Believe most of us likely played it. I certainly did.


Was a fun game, but extremely unrealistic in its 'real time' implementation.


Troops loaded on transports and and transports left the docks and started their journey's 5 minutes after the loading started.


The difficulty in implementing a real time grand strategic game is not with processing power or programming its with creating an interface that allows a player to review the status of and issue orders to thousands of units across two thirds of the globe in real time.

Even trying to manage tactical real time battles games all too rapidly degenerate into arcade style rapid click-fests.
Most strategy gamers eschew arcade click-fests.

So much of orders and control would have to be automated that the player would be relegated to making only sweeping policy decisions at the grand strategic level. The issuance of operational orders, as we do in the way the game is structured now would have to be taken away form the player to make this animal workable and game appeal would drop commensurately.





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RE: Upgrading PW: AE .....Real-time on a server - 3/22/2019 1:32:16 PM   
RangerJoe


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A person would be too busy sending out orders that there probably wouldn't be enough time to watch the action. Trying to coordinate things would more than likely be very difficult. But he should endeavor to do all of the coding himself since he thinks that it is so easy to do.

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Post #: 38
RE: Upgrading PW: AE .....Real-time on a server - 3/22/2019 4:21:26 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Think of all of the time involved to get everything working correctly. Hobbyists would be able to do it very fast and the risk of burn out is very high.

Why don't you do it all yourself?


+1 to this.

If it "just" takes good programmers and that it's comical to suggest that with today's processing power (which isn't really that relevant...it wasn't relevant a decade ago under original WITP either), then maybe Rusty should just do it.

Also disagree with the notion that this hobby "used to have" good programmers but somehow doesn't anymore. We must be experiencing entirely different gaming universes.

I get the feeling that WITP-AE was a "labor of love", expected to just break even on sales while the current environment is to push out more and more "first-person-shooter" games with dazzling graphics and lots of explosions - just like Hollywood action movies. No wonder kids are getting hooked on Red Bull!

All the really talented coders seem to be going into cyber warfare or cyber scam work ...



I feel like this isn't a complete or accurate assessment of the current game development environment, either.

It's a bit paradoxical. There are more indie and niche games being made than ever before and they are more accessible to anyone who wants them than games ever have been before - because gaming is more popular.

However because gaming is more popular, the giant AAA titles or extremely popular games are even more visible in culture than the most popular games of a decade (or two, or three) ever were. This gives the impression that "all" that the games are is what the kids are playing these days. Fortnite or whatever the flavor of the year is.

That's just not true. One need only look at the ENORMOUS variety of games available on Steam and/or Humble Bundle on a regular basis to see what's truly out there.

I mean we're getting high fidelity ports of board games to the PC on the regular these days. While that was true of the most popular games in the 90s and 2000s, such as Axis & Allies and Risk and so on, nowadays we're getting digital versions of board games most people have never even heard of. Carcassonne, Brass, 7 Wonders, Splendor, etc. And these games make money for the developers, or they wouldn't keep getting made.

< Message edited by Lokasenna -- 3/22/2019 4:22:34 PM >

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Post #: 39
RE: Upgrading PW: AE .....Real-time on a server - 3/22/2019 4:38:03 PM   
RangerJoe


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Some of those board games being turned into digital games might just be taking a basic gaming engine and then putting in the information for the game. Then that is polished by testing. What he wants is a lot more complex. I think that he should do it and and have it ready by this time next year since he thinks that it is so easy.

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Post #: 40
RE: Upgrading PW: AE .....Real-time on a server - 3/22/2019 7:35:31 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 5488
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
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quote:

I don't see a problem with people giving their thoughts on what they would like.


Neither do I, but it would be an entirely different game. I play to relax, and find 'real time' games to be too stressing, but that's just me.

quote:

Hasn't this already been done?

Isn't HOI a 'real time' strategic simulator?

Believe most of us likely played it. I certainly did.


Was a fun game, but extremely unrealistic in its 'real time' implementation.


+1

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Post #: 41
RE: Upgrading PW: AE .....Real-time on a server - 3/23/2019 9:31:17 AM   
Rising-Sun


Posts: 1800
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From: Clifton Park, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Some of those board games being turned into digital games might just be taking a basic gaming engine and then putting in the information for the game. Then that is polished by testing. What he wants is a lot more complex. I think that he should do it and and have it ready by this time next year since he thinks that it is so easy.


That the easiest thing to do and probably the best way to do it. Like wanna make a movie, make a cartoon booklet on how the story goes along with characters, etc. Most people out there just doesn't know how to plan it before jumping into ideas. Gotta test it first and do it the cheapest ways first before moving up the more expensive projects.

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RE: Upgrading PW: AE .....Real-time on a server - 3/23/2019 12:47:39 PM   
Fishbed


Posts: 1730
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
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quote:

I think that he should do it and and have it ready by this time next year since he thinks that it is so easy.

Well... Not saying it's easy, but it is doable. Or at least, worth trying

And about doing what must be done, I have been asking myself this question everyday for more than a year already...

I sure can't say for sure what should be done in order to create the aforementioned chimaera, a WitP Real Time clone on a Grand Strategic scale. Of course, as Hans pointed out with tact, challenges are different in terms of gameplay at this scale. In that regard, Victory at Sea: Pacific is a recent example of an attempt to put everything under the same hood, which isn't an easy task to say the least. You can’t expect true real time action not to force the gameplay to make concessions, if it aims at somewhat recreating the amount and depth of work WitP asks of the player. The mention of Hearts of Iron is an obvious illustration of the limitations of the genre once you step into the age of modern warfare – being an Europa Universalis fan of the first hour, I never could transition to the amount of abstraction required to make HoI’s magic work.

But at the tactical/grand tactical scale, it's quite another story. For those who asked themselves about how and what to do in that regard, know that there’s a few of us out there trying new things as we speak.

Regarding our project, we’re a bunch of PTO enthusiasts who went to the same school(s) of thought as you did (and by that I mean WitP, UV, but also CAW, GNB or the more platform-centric TF1942, 1942:PAW, etc...). Doesn’t take much more than what was mentioned earlier in this topic: a big chunk of time, a genius programmer, great, hardworking and generous 3D & 2D artists, and a guy with a few bucks to spare and a love for the topic – not to mention long years spent here and elsewhere, accumulating data & ideas.

For our first attempt, we’re going for a carrier combat tactical wargame - I tend to call it a carrier command simulation... But it's pausable real time, to me the level of realism and accuracy will still qualify it to be considered a wargame. The kind of wargame we never got, as a good base to grow further afterwards, step by step, towards surface warfare, platform-centric experiences and new game-modes allowing for a larger scale. A comprehensive yet understandable wargame, one that doesn't scare grognards or newcomers, using a modern interface and clear mechanics that will require little abstraction, and strive for intuitiveness instead. Something that looks beautiful and still plays well, has scalable difficulty and will give you a few chills - the nice kind.

We’ll be happy to tease a little content in due time indeed, if anyone is interested that is

Sorry for the shameless episode of self-promotion, but you might consider it as the first public acknowledgement that something is in the works, and I was happy that I could make it on these sacred and beloved grounds on mine, it’s kind of symbolic. For more info (and in fairness to the Matrixgames team, except if they were to authorize me to do otherwise), don’t hesitate to drop me a PM.

And yes, sometimes, it seems the only option left is to do it yourself ^^

See you later over Task Force 17 boys

Fish




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Fishbed -- 3/23/2019 12:50:51 PM >


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RE: Upgrading PW: AE .....Real-time on a server - 3/23/2019 1:11:01 PM   
rtoolooze


Posts: 105
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From: St.Louis Mo.
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I used to play a game on Sega Genesis called P.T.O - Pacific Theater of Operations before switching to PC, and iirc it had real time play that you would pause to issue orders. Its been so long now hard to remember, but I can still remember the background music. I'm sure a lot of you here remember it and can fill in the blanks.

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RE: Upgrading PW: AE .....Real-time on a server - 3/23/2019 1:28:17 PM   
Fishbed


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Keio PTO has a great range of features Western wargame/RTS designers rarely ever consider. They actually have their own way of dealing with historicity using original ideas that, although sometimes a flawed in their execution, deserve attention decades later. And that's just for PTO, one of the few series that actually got translated and sold over here.

PTO 2 for instance had a whole game phase ("conference") involving political games on the Japanese side. During these game sequences, you (the Navy) were made to negotiate with other war cabinet members - including the Army & the civilian Ministries representatives - in order to push your agenda and make operations happen at a certain time, at a certain place. Even though it is deliciously cheesy and limited by today's standards (and requires you to seat across the table from an unnamed Tojo, which is not up to everyone's taste I concede), it is still much closer an experience to actual strategy-making than any HoI session, however great, will ever be able to bring to you. In regard of the grand-strategic scale, it is awkwardly still one of the best alternatives existing out there, even though I wouldn't call it a Wargame, at least by the Western definition of it.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Fishbed -- 3/23/2019 1:29:50 PM >


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RE: Upgrading PW: AE .....Real-time on a server - 3/23/2019 10:36:15 PM   
Lokasenna


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That was my gateway drug.

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RE: Upgrading PW: AE .....Real-time on a server - 3/24/2019 8:47:43 AM   
Rising-Sun


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VaS:P doesn't look bad, but not realistic and the way things are setup isn't either. If they keep trying, may improve it in some ways like it should have been back in WWII in the Pacific. They had war bonds on both sides, Japan didn't use war bonds. Buying and building ships are way off, not even realistic. But I was told it will be moddable in most areas.

I do like the 3D in naval engagement, too bad we didn't get that in War in the Pacific: AE.

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RE: Upgrading PW: AE .....Real-time on a server - 3/24/2019 9:17:30 AM   
Fishbed


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Well they are the living example of how hard it is to make tactical and strategic matters coexist in the same dimension, even though they still have two dedicated game modes working in parallel. But the fact that they had to completely throw realistic representation of distances and time out of the window to achieve a playable state, gameplay wise, is very telling of the challenges and constraints they have to face while doing so.

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RE: Upgrading PW: AE .....Real-time on a server - 3/31/2019 12:33:16 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


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quote:

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

There used to be a game - Great Naval Battles by SSI. You could take control of an individual ship and be in charge of navigation, gunnery, and damage control. I loved that game. If you could do that - pick a battle and control just one ship or airplane or tank of your choice per turn... That'd be soooo cool.





Playable as browser game on modern Windows via embedded DOS Box: https://archive.org/details/msdos_Great_Naval_Battles_Vol_II_-_Guadalcanal_1942-43_1994

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