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Remain on station constantly switches back automatically at the end of each turn

 
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Remain on station constantly switches back automaticall... - 3/10/2019 6:16:24 AM   
jardail

 

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Have a large surface combat TF that I have given orders to 5 times in 5 consecutive turns to attack enemy shipping at Tulagi.

They go there, fight and after beating the enemy ships, most of which are supply ships and most of which get sunk, at the beginning of the following turn the cruisers and destroyers are 10 hexes to the south heading back to Nuoema. Remain on station has switched back to Retirement allowed EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Is there a magic button somewhere that makes this stick? This seems to be quite common in any TF that does not have an Aircraft Carrier in it.

Any ideas?
Post #: 1
RE: Remain on station constantly switches back automati... - 3/10/2019 6:24:58 AM   
geofflambert


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If they've used up most of their ammo they will retire to rearm because they can't complete their mission (surface action) without it. Try giving them a two hex patrol zone (or one hex) with zero wait and see what happens.

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RE: Remain on station constantly switches back automati... - 3/10/2019 6:43:55 AM   
jdsrae


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Check the ammo left on each ship. If it’s in the red the RADM is doing his job, but if not sack him and try using the patrol zone trick above which might keep them there even if some ammo has been used.
The task force commander might change the order for other reasons too, like if there is an enemy air threat and you don’t have your own fighter cover

< Message edited by jdsrae -- 3/10/2019 6:46:01 AM >


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RE: Remain on station constantly switches back automati... - 3/10/2019 12:10:11 PM   
jardail

 

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The Ammo was the very first thing I checked, it was ful. The TF was supposed to have air cover from another nearby TF, but no idea if that happened or not. The Patrol idea I'll have to try as so far no TF has retired once put on that order.
Thanks for your responses Gents.

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RE: Remain on station constantly switches back automati... - 3/10/2019 12:25:26 PM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jardail
The Ammo was the very first thing I checked, it was ful.

How did they battle and sink supply ships then?

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RE: Remain on station constantly switches back automati... - 3/10/2019 1:23:01 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jardail

Have a large surface combat TF that I have given orders to 5 times in 5 consecutive turns to attack enemy shipping at Tulagi.

They go there, fight and after beating the enemy ships, most of which are supply ships and most of which get sunk, at the beginning of the following turn the cruisers and destroyers are 10 hexes to the south heading back to Nuoema. Remain on station has switched back to Retirement allowed EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Is there a magic button somewhere that makes this stick? This seems to be quite common in any TF that does not have an Aircraft Carrier in it.

Any ideas?


This is WAD.

All Surface Combat TFs which engage in combat at their destination hex automatically return to their home port. The Remain on Station order does not apply in this situation. There is a reason why the option to patrol exists in the game and why the manual deals with the two orders. The two orders are mutually incompatible.

Alfred

(in reply to jardail)
Post #: 6
RE: Remain on station constantly switches back automati... - 3/10/2019 2:06:25 PM   
m10bob


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This is a problem I addressed in my recent thread for "things we might edit for future upgrades"(etc.).

While I have had better luck keeping those TF's at sea depending on the leader himself, I still cannot imagine Arleigh Burke cutting away after his force encountered a few empty barges at night?

With better rated leaders, I have seen those same TF's remain to fight until their ships are down to as little as TWO(2) rounds in the main guns.

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RE: Remain on station constantly switches back automati... - 3/10/2019 2:44:47 PM   
Dante Fierro


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From: Idaho Falls
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: jardail

Have a large surface combat TF that I have given orders to 5 times in 5 consecutive turns to attack enemy shipping at Tulagi.

They go there, fight and after beating the enemy ships, most of which are supply ships and most of which get sunk, at the beginning of the following turn the cruisers and destroyers are 10 hexes to the south heading back to Nuoema. Remain on station has switched back to Retirement allowed EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Is there a magic button somewhere that makes this stick? This seems to be quite common in any TF that does not have an Aircraft Carrier in it.

Any ideas?


This is WAD.

All Surface Combat TFs which engage in combat at their destination hex automatically return to their home port. The Remain on Station order does not apply in this situation. There is a reason why the option to patrol exists in the game and why the manual deals with the two orders. The two orders are mutually incompatible.

Alfred


So what you're saying here is instead of ordering a TF to attack a given hex, you order it to patrol a hex, so as to avoid the automatic return to Home Port afterwards?

Odd.


(in reply to Alfred)
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RE: Remain on station constantly switches back automati... - 3/10/2019 2:53:04 PM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dante Fierro
So what you're saying here is instead of ordering a TF to attack a given hex, you order it to patrol a hex, so as to avoid the automatic return to Home Port afterwards?

Odd.

Why? You want one engagement at most - you choose Remain at station. You want them to battle as long as possible - you choose Patrol. "Remain at station" does not sound like "no retreat no surrender" to me

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Post #: 9
RE: Remain on station constantly switches back automati... - 3/10/2019 3:16:01 PM   
jardail

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: jardail
The Ammo was the very first thing I checked, it was ful.

How did they battle and sink supply ships then?


Thank you, someone finally asked that question.

I wish I could tell you how they battled the previous turn and sink the supply ships. THEN be at full ammo when I went to check it. But in my mind, that wasn't AS important as the fact that the confounded TF kept trying to go back home. I think someone else answered this a bit further down however. The patrol around this target option, or setting waypoints for the patrol is something I'm going to look at doing.

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RE: Remain on station constantly switches back automati... - 3/10/2019 3:20:52 PM   
jardail

 

Posts: 151
Joined: 11/28/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: jardail

Have a large surface combat TF that I have given orders to 5 times in 5 consecutive turns to attack enemy shipping at Tulagi.

They go there, fight and after beating the enemy ships, most of which are supply ships and most of which get sunk, at the beginning of the following turn the cruisers and destroyers are 10 hexes to the south heading back to Nuoema. Remain on station has switched back to Retirement allowed EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Is there a magic button somewhere that makes this stick? This seems to be quite common in any TF that does not have an Aircraft Carrier in it.

Any ideas?


This is WAD.

All Surface Combat TFs which engage in combat at their destination hex automatically return to their home port. The Remain on Station order does not apply in this situation. There is a reason why the option to patrol exists in the game and why the manual deals with the two orders. The two orders are mutually incompatible.

Alfred


Ok, well I guess in a way that makes sense. Thank you for the info. I'm not a newbie player, have had the game for a number of years, but took a hiatus from it. Guess I forgot more than I thought I did.

(in reply to Alfred)
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RE: Remain on station constantly switches back automati... - 3/10/2019 6:04:47 PM   
Lokasenna


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...this is not really the behavior I see.

My SCTFs do not always retire after an engagement when sent somewhere with Remain On Station orders - it depends on the engagement. Basically - how much ammo they used, damage sustained, and so on. I wouldn't be surprised to see a SCTF retire in the example given, but I also wouldn't be surprised to see it stay at the target. Examples of cases where I would expect them to stay on target would be where the enemy TF escapes the combat early, or just a few enemy ships were present and were promptly sunk.

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Post #: 12
RE: Remain on station constantly switches back automati... - 3/10/2019 11:34:29 PM   
BBfanboy


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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

...this is not really the behavior I see.

My SCTFs do not always retire after an engagement when sent somewhere with Remain On Station orders - it depends on the engagement. Basically - how much ammo they used, damage sustained, and so on. I wouldn't be surprised to see a SCTF retire in the example given, but I also wouldn't be surprised to see it stay at the target. Examples of cases where I would expect them to stay on target would be where the enemy TF escapes the combat early, or just a few enemy ships were present and were promptly sunk.

Lokasenna, do you recall if your TF was at the target hex or proceeded there after the engagements?

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Post #: 13
RE: Remain on station constantly switches back automati... - 3/11/2019 12:03:12 AM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

...this is not really the behavior I see.

My SCTFs do not always retire after an engagement when sent somewhere with Remain On Station orders - it depends on the engagement. Basically - how much ammo they used, damage sustained, and so on. I wouldn't be surprised to see a SCTF retire in the example given, but I also wouldn't be surprised to see it stay at the target. Examples of cases where I would expect them to stay on target would be where the enemy TF escapes the combat early, or just a few enemy ships were present and were promptly sunk.

Lokasenna, do you recall if your TF was at the target hex or proceeded there after the engagements?


Either/both. Almost certainly both. I keep copious notes of pertinent actions, but I've never noted when a SCTF has retired after a minor engagement (that would have gotten my attention).

Also of note - in recent turns, I've had a single IJN DD contacting my actual SCTFs and those TFs haven't been retiring. Literally 10+ engagements/contacts last turn, with SCTFs and amphib TFs, and none of my TFs retired whatsoever. They remained on station as ordered.

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Post #: 14
RE: Remain on station constantly switches back automati... - 3/11/2019 12:46:56 AM   
BBfanboy


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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

...this is not really the behavior I see.

My SCTFs do not always retire after an engagement when sent somewhere with Remain On Station orders - it depends on the engagement. Basically - how much ammo they used, damage sustained, and so on. I wouldn't be surprised to see a SCTF retire in the example given, but I also wouldn't be surprised to see it stay at the target. Examples of cases where I would expect them to stay on target would be where the enemy TF escapes the combat early, or just a few enemy ships were present and were promptly sunk.

Lokasenna, do you recall if your TF was at the target hex or proceeded there after the engagements?


Either/both. Almost certainly both. I keep copious notes of pertinent actions, but I've never noted when a SCTF has retired after a minor engagement (that would have gotten my attention).

Also of note - in recent turns, I've had a single IJN DD contacting my actual SCTFs and those TFs haven't been retiring. Literally 10+ engagements/contacts last turn, with SCTFs and amphib TFs, and none of my TFs retired whatsoever. They remained on station as ordered.

When playing patch 1124 I frequently (perhaps always) had non-SCTFs RTB after the slightest contact with the enemy, even when it was my carrier TF bumping into some xAKs at night. By the end of the turn the TF was well on its way back to home base. Good TF commanders, good ship captains.
Setting waypoints just before target hex seemed to keep the ships going even after contact with the enemy.

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RE: Remain on station constantly switches back automati... - 3/11/2019 2:31:35 PM   
Macclan5


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From: Toronto Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

...this is not really the behavior I see.

My SCTFs do not always retire after an engagement when sent somewhere with Remain On Station orders - it depends on the engagement. Basically - how much ammo they used, damage sustained, and so on. I wouldn't be surprised to see a SCTF retire in the example given, but I also wouldn't be surprised to see it stay at the target. Examples of cases where I would expect them to stay on target would be where the enemy TF escapes the combat early, or just a few enemy ships were present and were promptly sunk.

Lokasenna, do you recall if your TF was at the target hex or proceeded there after the engagements?


Either/both. Almost certainly both. I keep copious notes of pertinent actions, but I've never noted when a SCTF has retired after a minor engagement (that would have gotten my attention).

Also of note - in recent turns, I've had a single IJN DD contacting my actual SCTFs and those TFs haven't been retiring. Literally 10+ engagements/contacts last turn, with SCTFs and amphib TFs, and none of my TFs retired whatsoever. They remained on station as ordered.

When playing patch 1124 I frequently (perhaps always) had non-SCTFs RTB after the slightest contact with the enemy, even when it was my carrier TF bumping into some xAKs at night. By the end of the turn the TF was well on its way back to home base. Good TF commanders, good ship captains.
Setting waypoints just before target hex seemed to keep the ships going even after contact with the enemy.


Not to directly contradict many here - but I think it is situational.

Alfred is of course correct in terms of working as designed.

But to Loka's point it depends.

I think there are other factors involved as suggested. The Leadership aggressiveness role, ammunition level, threat level (air), threat level (sea) for example.

Anecdotal evidence:

I have "never seen a SCTF with BB CA" hang around where a bunch of MTBs are nearby - and/or air threat - with remain on station. They always retire. Further the big guns use up ammo quickly so this may be part of the issue.

However I have seen a SCTF with pure DD - stay on station - further 'react' one hex to finish the job and hang around with remain on station. However they destroyed only a small squadron landing force, had lots of ammo available, and had no air or sea threats nearby.









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RE: Remain on station constantly switches back automati... - 3/11/2019 3:45:52 PM   
jardail

 

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Just to give an update, the patrol option worked. The ships no longer retire unless they were in a really bad fight. This is the kind of thing I would expect of my real commanders. Not weighing anchor and steaming away just because some islander in a canoe threw a spear at them :P

Thank you for all of your responses. It was of great assistance.

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RE: Remain on station constantly switches back automati... - 3/11/2019 4:25:07 PM   
rtoolooze


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From: St.Louis Mo.
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"Not weighing anchor and steaming away just because some islander in a canoe threw a spear at them :P"


That made me laugh and choke on some coffee, but yes, I agree with you.

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RE: Remain on station constantly switches back automati... - 3/12/2019 1:40:32 AM   
jardail

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rtoolooze

"Not weighing anchor and steaming away just because some islander in a canoe threw a spear at them :P"


That made me laugh and choke on some coffee, but yes, I agree with you.


Mission accomplished. I do try to make someone, anyone smile or laugh at least once per day :) Hope you had a great one and a great evening to boot :)

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RE: Remain on station constantly switches back automati... - 3/12/2019 2:13:43 AM   
geofflambert


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I think if you give your commander a reaction range and more targets are sighted, he'll go after them (perhaps) regardless of the "remain on station" order. That is to say, he will not automatically order a retire to home port if there are other targets out there. Nonetheless, using patrol orders is in most cases the best plan.

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RE: Remain on station constantly switches back automati... - 3/12/2019 3:28:54 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I think if you give your commander a reaction range and more targets are sighted, he'll go after them (perhaps) regardless of the "remain on station" order. That is to say, he will not automatically order a retire to home port if there are other targets out there. Nonetheless, using patrol orders is in most cases the best plan.

Per Alfred's statements and in my experience reaction to intercept does not occur unless the TF is on patrol.

Having said that, Lokasenna just posted that he had a TF set to "Remain on Station" which reacted, and he is a very good observer/documenter of actual behavior of the game. I have no idea how this can be as I have not seen it in my games, but maybe the mod or patch he is playing differs from mine or there was some strange set of circumstances that brought it about.

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RE: Remain on station constantly switches back automati... - 3/12/2019 4:46:52 PM   
Lokasenna


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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I think if you give your commander a reaction range and more targets are sighted, he'll go after them (perhaps) regardless of the "remain on station" order. That is to say, he will not automatically order a retire to home port if there are other targets out there. Nonetheless, using patrol orders is in most cases the best plan.

Per Alfred's statements and in my experience reaction to intercept does not occur unless the TF is on patrol.

Having said that, Lokasenna just posted that he had a TF set to "Remain on Station" which reacted, and he is a very good observer/documenter of actual behavior of the game. I have no idea how this can be as I have not seen it in my games, but maybe the mod or patch he is playing differs from mine or there was some strange set of circumstances that brought it about.


They didn't react, they just didn't retire towards home port . I've never observed, on the few attempts I've made, any TF react while set to remain on station. Honestly, the conditions for them to react just weren't there.

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Post #: 22
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