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RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide f or Axis players - 3/20/2019 5:05:19 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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Joined: 2/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

@HLYA: We do not need to discuss if it is nice to have the unit in the blue circle encircled on T1 and the one in the red box hugged tightly. No debate necessary and I would gladly take this if it is for free. But it is not and the question always comes down to if it is worth the cost to the Centre/Northern Centre.






This is a "GUIDE" per your title. I have an opposing view to what you did in the South and I provided it here in your "Guide" for the south. Those that are using this guide should understand this.

As for going down the "Rabbit hole" on the different units has gotten a bit out of hand. You took what I came up for the Super Lvov pocket (along with other people having similar thoughts)on the super Lvov pocket and posted an updated addendum of your take. That is GREAT! You did an excellent job. That is what this game is about helping others. But now I am getting the impression you are making this into a battle You (Evk) versus Me (HLYA) way of doing something. It should not be. Let people decide what they want to do. Hell, I would rather players come up with their own addendum to this and beat both of our ways. I personally am not defending my ways as the "right" or "only" way. I implore people to experiment and do better than me and anyone else that is out there. I am pretty sure I said this many times in my AAR's. Again there is no wrong or right way & with a few adjustments in the North and Center I can pretty much do what you did in the North and Center and still do what I did in the South locking down units.

BTW, you first said "Center" for unit difference between our games ;-) But as for your numbers of 8 blue units, one orange unit, one light blue unit, and 4 green units is "not correct" at all as the difference between our games. We can debate this all day and night but this is detracting from what people should be getting from the guide. I will leave that lie and let people come up with their own better ways since this IS NOT about "You" versus "ME" but about others bettering themselves in WITE from our experiences given in Guides and AAR's :)



_____________________________

Space we can recover; time never

Napoleon

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 61
RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide f or Axis players - 3/20/2019 5:27:05 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 1569
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

This is a "GUIDE" per your title. I have an opposing view to what you did in the South and I provided it here in your "Guide" for the south. Those that are using this guide should understand this.

As for going down the "Rabbit hole" on the different units has gotten a bit out of hand. You took what I came up for the Super Lvov pocket (along with other people having similar thoughts)on the super Lvov pocket and posted an updated addendum of your take. That is GREAT! You did an excellent job. That is what this game is about helping others. But now I am getting the impression you are making this into a battle You (Evk) versus Me (HLYA) way of doing something. It should not be. Let people decide what they want to do. Hell, I would rather players come up with their own addendum to this and beat both of our ways. I personally am not defending my ways as the "right" or "only" way. I implore people to experiment and do better than me and anyone else that is out there. I am pretty sure I said this many times in my AAR's. Again there is no wrong or right way & with a few adjustments in the North and Center I can pretty much do what you did in the North and Center and still do what I did in the South locking down units.

BTW, you first said "Center" for unit difference between our games ;-) But as for your numbers of 8 blue units, one orange unit, one light blue unit, and 4 green units is "not correct" at all as the difference between our games. We can debate this all day and night but this is detracting from what people should be getting from the guide. I will leave that lie and let people come up with their own better ways since this IS NOT about "You" versus "ME" but about others bettering themselves in WITE from our experiences given in Guides and AAR's :)


All I do is opening and game analysis. It is something completely natural to do, it happens for chess and other games too. It includes saying things like player XYZ's approach has advantages here and ZYX's approach there.
You criticised certain aspects of my opening and I replied with a detailed post to that to outline pro and cons of the two approaches. The post contains praise and criticism of aspects of both openings. The forum is full of such back and forth discussions and I personally have learned much from those discourses. Sometimes they are even more useful than textbook style treatises.

The names for both openings (opening HLYA, opening EvK) are completely arbitrary, I chose some which easily indicate which one is is meant. Replace them with plan Red and plan Blue if necessary.
If you think certain formulations are aggressive or offensive I am grateful for hints to avoid that in the future, I am not overly experienced in English.

It has always been my intention to help people and learn from their feedback with the AAR-Guide. The last line in my reply explicitly asks people to share their ideas for improvements. I never claimed to have invented a final or perfect opening.

< Message edited by EwaldvonKleist -- 3/20/2019 5:33:09 PM >


_____________________________


(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 62
RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide f or Axis players - 3/20/2019 5:34:40 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 3095
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

quote:

This is a "GUIDE" per your title. I have an opposing view to what you did in the South and I provided it here in your "Guide" for the south. Those that are using this guide should understand this.

As for going down the "Rabbit hole" on the different units has gotten a bit out of hand. You took what I came up for the Super Lvov pocket (along with other people having similar thoughts)on the super Lvov pocket and posted an updated addendum of your take. That is GREAT! You did an excellent job. That is what this game is about helping others. But now I am getting the impression you are making this into a battle You (Evk) versus Me (HLYA) way of doing something. It should not be. Let people decide what they want to do. Hell, I would rather players come up with their own addendum to this and beat both of our ways. I personally am not defending my ways as the "right" or "only" way. I implore people to experiment and do better than me and anyone else that is out there. I am pretty sure I said this many times in my AAR's. Again there is no wrong or right way & with a few adjustments in the North and Center I can pretty much do what you did in the North and Center and still do what I did in the South locking down units.

BTW, you first said "Center" for unit difference between our games ;-) But as for your numbers of 8 blue units, one orange unit, one light blue unit, and 4 green units is "not correct" at all as the difference between our games. We can debate this all day and night but this is detracting from what people should be getting from the guide. I will leave that lie and let people come up with their own better ways since this IS NOT about "You" versus "ME" but about others bettering themselves in WITE from our experiences given in Guides and AAR's :)


All I do is opening and game analysis. It is something completely natural to do, it happens for chess and other games too. It includes saying things like player XYZ's approach has advantages here and ZYX's approach there.
You criticised certain aspects of my opening and I replied with a detailed post to that to outline pro and cons of the two approaches. The post contains praise and criticism of aspects of both openings. The forum is full of such back and forth discussions and I personally have learned much from those discourses. Sometimes they are even more useful than textbook style treatises.

The names for both openings (opening HLYA, opening EvK) are completely arbitrary, I chose ones so everyone knows which one is meant. Replace them with plan Red and plan Blue if necessary.
If you think certain formulations are aggressive or offensive I am grateful for hints to avoid that in the future, I am not overly experienced in English.

It has always been my intention to help people and learn from their feedback with the AAR. The last line in my reply explicitly asks people to share their ideas for improvements. I never claimed to have invented a final or perfect opening.


Oh! I am not criticizing your play at all!!! Far from it. I think what you have provided here is great & makes people do better. I have said numerous times in my post on this thread you did Great! I love it when people do this. Plus makes me look at what I did and try to squeeze out more. So please don't think I am criticizing you, I am not.

_____________________________

Space we can recover; time never

Napoleon

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 63
RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide f or Axis players - 3/20/2019 5:41:56 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 1569
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline
@HLYA: I have no problem with critique. It is necessary and good if focused on the topic and structured and I appreciate it and criticise other people myself. Maybe there is a problem between languages, what I mean with critique/criticism is the process of challenging argumentation or concepts.

If I decide to fortify Berlin in June 1941 and someone argues "That is a waste of resources, because 1)..., 2)... and 3)..., that is what I understand under criticism and I apply that to other people's play as I do to mine.


< Message edited by EwaldvonKleist -- 3/20/2019 5:43:56 PM >


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(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 64
RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide f or Axis players - 3/20/2019 5:49:52 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 3095
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

@HLYA: I have no problem with critique. It is necessary and good if focused on the topic and structured and I appreciate it and criticise other people myself. Maybe there is a problem between languages, what I mean with critique/criticism is the process of challenging argumentations or concepts.

If I decide to fortify Berlin in June 1941 and someone argues "That is a waste of resources, because 1)..., 2)... and 3)..., that is what I understand under criticism and I express that kind of critisim to other people's play as I do to mine.



Understood.

Again, I like your take on this opening and your moves you have done. You have invested a great deal of time and effort into this guide and you should be applauded for doing so.


_____________________________

Space we can recover; time never

Napoleon

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 65
RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide f or Axis players - 3/22/2019 8:03:20 PM   
joelmar


Posts: 49
Joined: 3/16/2019
Status: offline
This discussion puts emphasis on what fascinates me the most about that game: The depth of the mechanics, the endless possibilities and thus the importance of the Commander in Chief, namely, the player.

I realise that every player has exactly the same ratings as the Leaders in the game. Some are good in pushing units and choosing paths of attack or defense, so high Mec or Inf rating, others are good at logistics, so high Admin, or timely attribution of support to attacking spearheads, which also uses initiative ratings etc... Others have steely nerves and will play more aggressively or make gambit, won't despair in face of difficult odds, showing high morale... So many things to think about and master that it must be really rare to have a player with all those ratings above 7 or 8, a Model, Manstein, Weiss or a Rendulic ;-)

This is exactly in line with the thinking of Clausewitz on the mechanics of war and the importance of the leader and morale. And it's quite a great achievement in a game design I think.

So I think that to have a complete and thorough analysis of openings and deciding which is best might not be possible. In this case, both openings will make for very different following turns, with different opportunities, and those are entirely up to the talent and vision of the player as to how they will develop. And also to a great degree to the reactions of his opponent, also depending on his talent and vision. So past experiences in games with a specific opening might not be full proof as maybe the Soviet best tactics or strategies against it has never been fully implemented, even if that game was against an experienced and talented soviet player.

Correct me if I'm wrong, and this is only a green player with not much experience in game play, and also no experience at all in MP games... but it might also be that against some players with the right ratings, a standard historical Axis attack on the first turn might still be the best option, even if less devastating at first.

At least, I hope it is the case else a lot of those forces of depth and complexity are lost.

I was reading in your AAR HLYA that some nerfs of the last patches were for twarting elite players and that they made the lives of average players really tough... I can understand why. Balance in this game is probably an impossible razor edge to find for the programers and game designers. And even with house rules, if you accept some to give a edge to a player that is not as good as you are or experimented, and suddenly the guy understands things and becomes better while playing, then you suddenly are in trouble! lol!

Best attitude is maybe not to play for winning, but for the sheer enjoyement of analysing tasks and problems and finding the best solutions possible.

< Message edited by joelmar -- 3/22/2019 9:21:30 PM >

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 66
RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide f or Axis players - 3/25/2019 5:10:15 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 3469
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: online
There's always more than one way to skin a cat.

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'Deus le Volt!'
------------------

(in reply to joelmar)
Post #: 67
RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide f or Axis players - 3/25/2019 3:31:48 PM   
Crackaces


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Joined: 7/9/2011
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“Best attitude is maybe not to play for winning, but for the sheer enjoyement of analysing tasks and problems and finding the best solutions possible. “

+1

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"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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Post #: 68
RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide f or Axis players - 3/26/2019 4:12:43 PM   
joelmar


Posts: 49
Joined: 3/16/2019
Status: offline
Michael T: Or for the cat to skin you if it turns out to be a tiger!

Crackaces: thanks. I think it's a bit of a shame when a player abandons after 3-4 turns because of a bad start, thus missing great learning opportunities. And possibilities of taking advantage of mistakes by the oppononent to amend a bad situation, mistakes which I think are bound to happen due to the complexity, the lenght and the changing nature of the game. But I understand that continuing a game one is almost certain or certain to lose might be tough on morale if your focus is only on winning and proving yourself to the universe ;-) I also understand there might come a point when you know for sure nothing can be done, but I doubt this moment comes after 4 turns. I mean, I'm at the 12th turn of a campaign against the AI, and even though it plays quite stupidly most of the time and I did hit hard and it is in the ropes, that thing still has ressources to throw at me. I can only guess how much more efficient and ressourceful a human will be, even an average opponent should be able to do much better.

In the end, Stalin and Zhukov didn't abandon even though the Russians had a really bad start. And most German generals already knew in late 1941 that they wouldn't win the war. Yet they fought on.

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 69
RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide f or Axis players - 3/26/2019 4:19:55 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 1569
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
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quote:

Best attitude is maybe not to play for winning, but for the sheer enjoyement of analysing tasks and problems and finding the best solutions possible.

Thank you for your sacrify my Pixeltruppen, I have learnt a great deal about operational warfare and it was a really interesting to find the best solution to win the war with just 2 million of you dead. Is that what you are going to tell your troops in the end?

I for my part fight for final victory&Lebensraum or to liberate europe from capitalist pigs respectively.

You mentioned Clausewitz, I really enjoyed reading "On war", I think it has quite a number of useful concepts for wargamers, highly recommended. The art of war of Jomini has something too but is less abstracted and as such not so useful as On war for other time periods/theatres.





< Message edited by EwaldvonKleist -- 3/26/2019 4:20:39 PM >


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RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide f or Axis players - 3/26/2019 4:44:57 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 2476
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
quote:

Best attitude is maybe not to play for winning, but for the sheer enjoyement of analysing tasks and problems and finding the best solutions possible.

Thank you for your sacrify my Pixeltruppen, I have learnt a great deal about operational warfare and it was a really interesting to find the best solution to win the war with just 2 million of you dead. Is that what you are going to tell your troops in the end?
I for my part fight for final victory&Lebensraum or to liberate europe from capitalist pigs respectively.


Although the Axis may have appreciated a replay or make it the best of three?

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 71
RE: Do you want total war? An AAR-Guide f or Axis players - 3/26/2019 5:17:18 PM   
joelmar


Posts: 49
Joined: 3/16/2019
Status: offline
quote:

Thank you for your sacrify my Pixeltruppen, I have learnt a great deal about operational warfare and it was a really interesting to find the best solution to win the war with just 2 million of you dead. Is that what you are going to tell your troops in the end?


lol! You have a high level of virtual compassion for you Pixeltruppen! A pity neither Hitler or Stalin had any of that for the real humans under their command.

I understand you, I am a fighter, I have a strong sense of pride, and I love to win. To be honest, I used to play only to win, whatever the game. But I'm getting old I guess... ;-) Anyway, I feel there is too much time investment to put in this game to stake the fate of my pleasure only on victory with a big "V". And I hope to find opponents who won't give up after 4 turns, like I was some kind of invicible and infaillible war lord when in fact there are plenty of chances of mistakes and twists of fate, which I know I'll be making... ;-)

And I intend to keep on fighting as long as I can even if I'm getting creamed. At least until one of the opponents means of action are almost wiped out and nothing can be done to redress that. But like I said, I don't think that can happen in the early stages of the game and certainly not on turns 3-4.

For Clausewitz, I'm a big fan. I read the book twice over a 20 years period, finding very different insights both times. Jomini I didn't read, because of Clausewitz who as you know didn't like him much for exactly the reasons you mention. Maybe I should come round to him, there must be interesting things for sure and I know he influenced many.


(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 72
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