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I think I found a bug with PO assisst!

 
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I think I found a bug with PO assisst! - 3/3/2019 1:15:43 AM   
Iamstrategygame

 

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I am unable to delete the first objective of the PO assist, this is very bad because my unit keeps going back the the first object. Is there a fix? what im I missing?






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RE: I think I found a bug with PO assisst! - 3/3/2019 9:02:03 AM   
altipueri

 

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I found the same issue. Is it to do with a unit being on the hex?

Edit - well it's not that I just tried it on the Waterloo scenario too.

Second edit - maybe something to do with a formation must have at least one objective set by the scenario creator if there are to be re-inforcements. Manual 17.11.09 - 13

< Message edited by altipueri -- 3/3/2019 9:22:44 AM >

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RE: I think I found a bug with PO assisst! - 3/3/2019 2:44:36 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamstrategygame

I am unable to delete the first objective of the PO assist, this is very bad because my unit keeps going back the the first object. Is there a fix? what im I missing?


The first objective can be used to set the arrival point of rebuilt units of the formation, so it can't be changed in-game.

In the above case, that objective is enemy controlled. So the PO is going to direct the formation to take it. If you want that formation to do something else, you'll have to put it in manual mode and do it yourself. If you hand control of your forces to the PO expect them to act like the PO (kind of bone-headed, in other words). I would only use that feature in quiet sectors that aren't very important.

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RE: I think I found a bug with PO assisst! - 3/3/2019 5:39:54 PM   
Iamstrategygame

 

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man I wish they can fix this!

< Message edited by Iamstrategygame -- 3/3/2019 5:40:25 PM >

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RE: I think I found a bug with PO assisst! - 3/3/2019 9:02:52 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamstrategygame

man I wish they can fix this!


Let's see if I have this right. You want the PO to control the unit but you want to tell the PO what to do. Is that correct?

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RE: I think I found a bug with PO assisst! - 3/3/2019 9:41:14 PM   
altipueri

 

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No.

Although one should beware of low post counts, if you want to use the PO assist and send units in a different direction than the scenario designer's PO objectives you can do so for all objectives except the first (Obj1).

I'm just back after an alcoholic evening so disregard this post if obviously wrong. :)

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RE: I think I found a bug with PO assisst! - 3/4/2019 2:50:53 AM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: altipueri

I'm just back after an alcoholic evening so disregard this post if obviously wrong. :)


Been there once or twice myself back in the day.


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RE: I think I found a bug with PO assisst! - 3/4/2019 3:04:36 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

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I prefer medical marijuana for my PTSD.

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RE: I think I found a bug with PO assisst! - 3/5/2019 8:42:14 AM   
Iamstrategygame

 

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yes, that first way points messy up the PO assist. A lot of time it will prioritize that first way point instead of the way point I give them, basically I can't use PO assist for combat.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamstrategygame

man I wish they can fix this!


Let's see if I have this right. You want the PO to control the unit but you want to tell the PO what to do. Is that correct?

for combat anymore!

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RE: I think I found a bug with PO assisst! - 3/5/2019 9:56:33 AM   
altipueri

 

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Yet I managed to move an Obj1 when I tried it on the Smolensk41 scenario.

Play as Russians and find the south west formation 13th Army - I can move by drag and drop the Obj1 to somewhere else - I moved it to Roslavl in the middle of the southern bit of the map.


But when I tried it with the 22nd army - top centre of the map - I couldn't remove it or move it by drag and drop.


Curious.

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RE: I think I found a bug with PO assisst! - 3/5/2019 10:53:01 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

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Hey you guys....leave obj1 where it is. The reinforcements use that as an entry point and it's not supposed to be moved. The other objectives for that track will lead away from obj1 along the path desired until it arrives at it's destination by putting the last objective there. Try that.

< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 3/5/2019 10:59:47 AM >


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RE: I think I found a bug with PO assisst! - 3/5/2019 11:16:59 AM   
altipueri

 

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It also seems that once there are no more reinforcements for an OBJ1 it can then be moved by drag and drop.


I have now completed an almost successful retreat east of Smolensk. Sure I lost on victory points but I kept most of my army.

I know this isn't what the scenario designer wanted - but I like marching my 10,000 men to the top of the hill and marching them back down again.


Once I feel I understand how to use the PO assist I will play some larger scenarios - but only as a junior officer on the flank or rear.

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RE: I think I found a bug with PO assisst! - 3/5/2019 1:05:56 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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It's kind of fun and instructive to have the computer play both sides.

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RE: I think I found a bug with PO assisst! - 3/6/2019 10:47:26 AM   
Iamstrategygame

 

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Under play there is object track, there are 5 tracks. If 1 is taken by the scenario designer I just chose objective track 2. My point is even after choosing object track 2 and inserting my own objective 1 mark, I can't delete or move it! This is the fundamental problem. This might not seem like a big deal on 20 turn scenarios, but for huge maps and 300 turns plus scenarios, this is a big problem!

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RE: I think I found a bug with PO assisst! - 3/6/2019 1:20:27 PM   
Lobster


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There should be a way to erase all objective tracks for a formation and insert all new ones. That would probably involve a good deal of programming.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 3/6/2019 1:21:02 PM >


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RE: I think I found a bug with PO assisst! - 3/10/2019 1:47:14 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

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quote:

There should be a way to erase all objective tracks for a formation and insert all new ones.

Sometimes the scenario designer leaves one or more tracks "empty" and you don't have to do anything fancy when your units have moved a far distance away from OBJ1.....just switch to one of the empty tracks and if there's already an OBJ1 and it's far away from the action in Germany then just put OBJ2 somewhere near where the unit is currently and go ahead and lay your new tracks by laying down new objectives. It's my understanding that D21 uses the different tracks to handle the different time periods of the scenario. That's a wonderful idea.

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RE: I think I found a bug with PO assisst! - 3/15/2019 6:12:16 PM   
Omnius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamstrategygame

Under play there is object track, there are 5 tracks. If 1 is taken by the scenario designer I just chose objective track 2. My point is even after choosing object track 2 and inserting my own objective 1 mark, I can't delete or move it! This is the fundamental problem. This might not seem like a big deal on 20 turn scenarios, but for huge maps and 300 turns plus scenarios, this is a big problem!


Iamstrategygame,
You're really wasting time on trying to make the PO Assist actually assist in a smart way. I played the PO for a few tutorial games to learn the ropes of TOAW 4 but now am switching to playing both sides in Hotseat mode. The PO is just another Artificial Ignorance and it's really difficult for scenario designers to properly program them to do smart moves. One thing I hate about the PO is how units vacillate between two objectives, never stopping and resting. I like to watch the PO's play each other to see why they are so inept, they are way too busy and they almost never stop and rest units that are too fatigued.

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RE: I think I found a bug with PO assisst! - 3/15/2019 6:19:13 PM   
Omnius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

It's kind of fun and instructive to have the computer play both sides.


larryfulkerson,
Yep it is fun to smoke my non-medical marijuana and watch the Artificially Ignorant PO's make a mess of things. The saddest part of last playing TOAW 2 and now picking up again with TOAW 4 is that Norm hasn't smartened up the PO to actually stop and rest units. One of the dumbest things is to watch PO-controlled units move back and forth between two objectives, really bad for naval units, and burn up all movement accomplishing nothing. It's ironic that the manual advises humans to rest units when they reach a certain level of exhaustion or low level of supply but Norm has yet to program that kind of intelligence into the PO. The PO is only annoying because it never ceases movement and useless bombardments, I find that resting my units and keeping them from being overused always whips the overly active PO. That and making sure I recombine units so I don't have a bunch of tiny ants that are easily stepped on.

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RE: I think I found a bug with PO assisst! - 3/15/2019 9:23:25 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Omnius
quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson
It's kind of fun and instructive to have the computer play both sides.

larryfulkerson,
Yep it is fun to smoke my non-medical marijuana and watch the Artificially Ignorant PO's make a mess of things. The saddest part of last playing TOAW 2 and now picking up again with TOAW 4 is that Norm hasn't smartened up the PO to actually stop and rest units. One of the dumbest things is to watch PO-controlled units move back and forth between two objectives, really bad for naval units, and burn up all movement accomplishing nothing. It's ironic that the manual advises humans to rest units when they reach a certain level of exhaustion or low level of supply but Norm has yet to program that kind of intelligence into the PO. The PO is only annoying because it never ceases movement and useless bombardments, I find that resting my units and keeping them from being overused always whips the overly active PO. That and making sure I recombine units so I don't have a bunch of tiny ants that are easily stepped on.

I've found that Recreational Marijuana gives me psycosis symptoms. And I'm already as crazy as I'm comfortable with so I've been sticking to the Medical kind. It's got very little THC in it so I need to do several bong hits before I get a buzz on. I probably do 4 hits an hour all day every day. Except when I'm asleep. I feel pretty mellow all the time now. No more nightmares and hallucinations and headaches.

I'm not one to use the PO a lot. There's something I like about moving the units with my own hand. I tried to use the PO Assist feature to guide my units and I noticed that I didn't know how to make them go where I wanted them to go. And they all seemed to go at their own individual rate instead of the 'broad front' approach where their movement is coordinated. And you're right about the needless moving from one hex to another just to return to the first hex and then make another identical trip before ending the move. Having accomplished nothing useful, just burning off supply. Knowing that Elmer works this way, scenario designers sometimes give Elmer lots of extra units because most players can beat Elmer fairly easily. D21 gives you a fairly good contest even though you're up against the AI.


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RE: I think I found a bug with PO assisst! - 3/16/2019 6:08:11 AM   
cathar1244

 

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quote:

And you're right about the needless moving from one hex to another just to return to the first hex and then make another identical trip before ending the move.


That simulates the sergeants-major getting a collective case of the jaws and subjecting the troops to re-training on drill and ceremonies.

Cheers

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RE: I think I found a bug with PO assisst! - 3/16/2019 10:26:34 PM   
gliz2

 

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The fault is in the design. The sandbox is not reallt for Elmer. Kind like Vassal engine.
You would need to write a separate game code for every scenario just to make Elmer competitive and the longer and bigger the scenario the worse is the case.
I wish there was still interest in wargaming with the progress the AI learning of late. I saw in many games how the AI learns the human behaviour and counter it. Imagine a FITE2 run a thousand times AI vs AI where Elmer would learn the things. AI could easily anticipate what humans could do.

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RE: I think I found a bug with PO assisst! - 3/29/2019 6:16:17 PM   
Omnius


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larryfulkerson,
Funny but I get very excellent recreational weed here in Cali, have a friend who grows it very professionally. Much cheaper than the medical weed and I don't need a doctor's permit.

I really abhor the PO Assist, just won't play against it since it's so pathetic since it's way too busy. PO Assist is the most annoyingly worthless feature of the game and I don't understand why anyone would use it. I wish there was a way to turn it off permanently. I turned off the air assist PO and am wondering if I turn of showing the PO Assist boxes if that'll kill PO Assist for every game or if it would just keep it permanently stuck with no way to turn the PO Assist off by unchecking the boxes. I sure hope that's the case as I want to find the magic box that turns off PO Assist permanently. Really annoying to have to remember each turn I get reinforcements to check if I got a new formation that requires I uncheck that box.


I remember someone at Matrix trying to tell me that a bust Artificial Ignorance is a good AI but in TOAW that's definitely not the case as it tracks readiness and supply. So sad to see the Artificially Ignorant PO waste precious readiness and supply moving back and forth without purpose. Same with arty units constantly firing shots when arty units show a red box and those shots do not damage.


I just play the game hotseat for both sides. Yeah it kills surprise but I get a better game that way.

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RE: I think I found a bug with PO assisst! - 3/30/2019 3:03:31 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

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quote:

I just play the game hotseat for both sides. Yeah it kills surprise but I get a better game that way.

I'm going to have to try that.

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RE: I think I found a bug with PO assisst! - 3/30/2019 7:33:26 AM   
altipueri

 

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I always play against the AI and with AI assist. It recreates the folly and luck or bad luck of war with orders not followed in detail exactly the way you want it.

Given the fact that powerful computers have only recently beaten chess - a wargame with only 32 pieces and no fog of war and no random results - I think pretty much any sort of wargame AI is better than hotseating with oneself and pretending to not know what the other side was planning.

In past times ambassadors gave presents of chess and backgammon sets - chess elegant pure strategy but backgammon to remind the recipient of the role of luck.


I've sometime thought it would be nice to try chess with probabilities - Queen takes pawn - 90% chance; pawn takes queen 10%.

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RE: I think I found a bug with PO assisst! - 3/30/2019 10:13:41 AM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Omnius

I really abhor the PO Assist, just won't play against it since it's so pathetic since it's way too busy. PO Assist is the most annoyingly worthless feature of the game and I don't understand why anyone would use it. I wish there was a way to turn it off permanently. I turned off the air assist PO and am wondering if I turn of showing the PO Assist boxes if that'll kill PO Assist for every game or if it would just keep it permanently stuck with no way to turn the PO Assist off by unchecking the boxes. I sure hope that's the case as I want to find the magic box that turns off PO Assist permanently. Really annoying to have to remember each turn I get reinforcements to check if I got a new formation that requires I uncheck that box.


?? Turn off PO Assist? PO Assist doesn't do anything unless you turn on PO Mode and push the PO Move Button.

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RE: I think I found a bug with PO assisst! - 3/30/2019 10:34:16 AM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Omnius

I just play the game hotseat for both sides. Yeah it kills surprise but I get a better game that way.


Unless you have a split personality.


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RE: I think I found a bug with PO assisst! - 3/30/2019 11:16:23 AM   
altipueri

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: Omnius

I just play the game hotseat for both sides. Yeah it kills surprise but I get a better game that way.


Unless you have a split personality.



Surely that would make it better because you genuinely wouldn't know what the other guy was planning?

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RE: I think I found a bug with PO assisst! - 3/30/2019 2:57:28 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

arty units constantly firing shots when arty units show a red box and those shots do not damage

He's wrong about everything else but is right about this, it's kind of silly behaviour.

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RE: I think I found a bug with PO assisst! - 3/31/2019 8:31:38 PM   
Omnius


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altipueri,
I see you use PO Assist to quicken your time involvement and to handicap yourself for the PO. It would drive me crazy watching the PO mess up my side.


A shame IBM won't do a super program for a wargame like TOAW the way it did Big Blue for chess. It would be awesome to be able to play against a really intelligent PO where if you increased the difficulty level the PO would play more intelligently. Programming a cumputer to replicate how we see a map and correlate how units are aligned and where opportunities may exist.


Chess with probabilities sounds rather intriguing, indeed introducing luck to the chess board. That would be something a computer version could easily do. Heck I could see maiing a TOAW scenario modeling a chess board with units to model the chess pieces and you'd have to play hotseat or PBEM to ensure that one tried to move pieces like chess pieces. I wonder if you can have one-sided combat results in TOAW so one side or the other wins and stays while the other sides loses it's piece.

(in reply to altipueri)
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RE: I think I found a bug with PO assisst! - 3/31/2019 8:34:42 PM   
Omnius


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Curtis Lemay,
Thanks for partially answering my question. Good to know PO Assist has to be triggered. Still wondering if hiding the PO Assist buttons ensures PO Assist isn't set to "ON" for every formation. Wish it were as clear as turning off the Air Staff Assistant.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
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