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I told you so.... - 2/19/2019 1:37:36 PM   
MakeeLearn


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Billy Mitchell Aerial Bombardment Demonstration ...

Bombing the ...

U.S.S. Alabama
Ostfriesland - A surrendered WW1 German battleship
U.S.S. New Jersey
U.S.S. Virginia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkbQ-qYzrY0

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 2/19/2019 1:48:15 PM >


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RE: I told you so.... - 2/19/2019 2:34:07 PM   
m10bob


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Aircraft sinking armoured battleships?

Preposterous!
I'll take my Big Guns any day...(said the man in the largest submersible.)

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RE: I told you so.... - 2/19/2019 3:03:49 PM   
Orm


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Thank you for sharing.

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RE: I told you so.... - 2/19/2019 4:17:46 PM   
GetAssista

 

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Funny that Mitchell brought 2000lbs bombs to really prove the point (and he did).
Yet I don't recall those bombs used in anti-shipping role during the war. And certainly not in our game

Edit: aye, have to correct myself. Some Lancasters and Mosquitoes carry 4000lbs bomb in the stock game, so there's that

< Message edited by GetAssista -- 2/19/2019 4:31:23 PM >

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RE: I told you so.... - 2/19/2019 11:16:22 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

Billy Mitchell Aerial Bombardment Demonstration ...

Bombing the ...

U.S.S. Alabama
Ostfriesland - A surrendered WW1 German battleship
U.S.S. New Jersey
U.S.S. Virginia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkbQ-qYzrY0

1. The ships were unmanned and the bombing was supposed to stop after each hit so the investigators could go aboard and see what the damage was. They might then have taken some measures to mitigate the damage before the next strike. That would be closer to the supposition of a manned ship dealing with battle damage. Mitchell did not stop the bombing after a hit - he wanted to prove aircraft could sink a large ship so he piled on the damage until it was unsafe for anyone to go aboard.

2. At least on Ostfriesland, the portholes were left with their interior "deadlights" (steel hatches that seal the porthole) in the open position. Once some damage occurred and a few portholes were below the waterline, near misses ensured the glass broke and flooding advanced unrealistically.

3. The ships were not steaming and maneuvering.

4. There was no AA fire.

These things make me conclude that Billy Mitchell's conduct ruined the experiment and gave a misleading impression of how easy it was to sink these ships. Not that they couldn't be sunk, but that it would take a bit more than his handful of aircraft to do so. Because of this, the "Big Gun" fans in the navy had an argument that said aircraft could not sink a well-protected ship maneuvering at sea. Had Mitchell let the experiment happen as planned and still sunk one or more ships, the argument for naval air power would have been much stronger during the inter-war period.

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RE: I told you so.... - 2/19/2019 11:19:59 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

Funny that Mitchell brought 2000lbs bombs to really prove the point (and he did).
Yet I don't recall those bombs used in anti-shipping role during the war. And certainly not in our game

Edit: aye, have to correct myself. Some Lancasters and Mosquitoes carry 4000lbs bomb in the stock game, so there's that

The 4000 lb bomb was called the "Blockbuster" because it was intended to bring down most of the buildings in a city block. It was HE, in a long cannister shape so it would not have been especially good at hitting ships or doing max damage to them. But when mixed with an Incendiary bomblet load, the Blockbuster provided the smashed buildings that the incendiaries needed to get inside to start a firestorm.

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RE: I told you so.... - 2/20/2019 12:49:32 PM   
MakeeLearn


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"To throw bombs from an airplane will do as much damage as throwing bags of flour. It will be my pleasure to stand on the bridge of any ship while it is attacked by airplanes."
- Newton Baker, US minister of defense (1921)

"I cannot conceive of any use that the fleet will ever have for aircraft,.. the Navy doesn’t need airplanes. Aviation is just a lot of noise."
-Adm. William S. Benson, the Chief of Naval Operations

"In his 1925 book, “Winged Defense,” Mitchell detailed how Japan might attack Hawaii — starting at 7:30 a.m. with 60 Japanese pursuit planes destroying hangars and planes on the ground at Schofield Barracks, followed by 100 bombers striking Pearl Harbor’s naval base."



Lesser known quotes....


"A stationary ship will not be attacked by aircraft and a maneuvering ship ship cannot be hit with bombs by aircraft."
- Someone

"Our Battleships were stationary and their AA guns were not fully manned... this is INFAMY we want a do over!"
- President F. D. Roosevelt 8th Dec, 1941



< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 2/20/2019 12:53:15 PM >


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RE: I told you so.... - 2/20/2019 8:10:00 PM   
rustysi


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Ah, as with any 'new' technology its full potential takes time to be realized. In addition to that it takes time for old tried and true beliefs to catch up to reality. I'm sure many of us viewing the 'string bags' of the 20's and early 30's would scoff at such a thing being a threat to a mighty 'Dread Naught'.

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RE: I told you so.... - 2/20/2019 8:49:10 PM   
HansBolter


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Let me get this straight....

you want to take away my pike and give me a wooden stick that fires a one shot pellet and takes 5 minutes to reload.....


no thanks!

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RE: I told you so.... - 2/20/2019 9:19:19 PM   
rustysi


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It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

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RE: I told you so.... - 2/21/2019 2:53:07 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

I'm sure many of us viewing the 'string bags' of the 20's and early 30's would scoff at such a thing being a threat to a mighty 'Dread Naught'.
warspite1

Hey, suck on this big boy, Bismarck




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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 2/21/2019 3:01:35 AM >


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RE: I told you so.... - 2/21/2019 5:54:35 PM   
rustysi


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Wondered when you'd post something like that.

Mitchell wasn't using torps. I don't really know what year aerial torps were introduced.

Besides everyone, but the Brits, knew those 'string bags' were obsolete.

< Message edited by rustysi -- 2/21/2019 5:55:39 PM >


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It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

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RE: I told you so.... - 2/21/2019 8:03:23 PM   
adarbrauner

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

I don't really know what year aerial torps were introduced.





I think experiments were held back in 1919...I think the Italians experiemnted with that, and not sure they were the first

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RE: I told you so.... - 2/21/2019 8:35:54 PM   
Lecivius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

I don't really know what year aerial torps were introduced.





I think experiments were held back in 1919...I think the Italians experiemnted with that, and not sure they were the first


According to that trusted source WIKI

Origins

In 1915, Rear Admiral Bradley A. Fiske conceived of the aerial torpedo.
The idea of dropping lightweight torpedoes from aircraft was conceived in the early 1910s by Bradley A. Fiske, an officer in the United States Navy. A patent for this was awarded in 1912. Fiske worked out the mechanics of carrying and releasing the aerial torpedo from a bomber, and defined tactics that included a night-time approach so that the target ship would be less able to defend itself. Fiske imagined the notional torpedo bomber would descend rapidly in a sharp spiral to evade enemy guns, then at an altitude of about 10 to 20 feet (3 to 6 m) would level off long enough to line up with the torpedo's intended path. The aircraft would release the torpedo at a distance of 1,500 to 2,000 yards (1,400 to 1,800 m) from the target. In 1915, Fiske proposed attacking enemy fleets within their own harbors using this method, if there was enough water (depth and expanse) for the torpedo to run. However, the United States Congress appropriated no funds for aerial torpedo research until 1917 when the U.S. entered into direct action in World War I. The U.S. would not have special-purpose torpedo planes until 1921.

First torpedo aircraft
Meanwhile, the Royal Naval Air Service began actively experimenting with this possibility. The first successful aerial torpedo drop was performed by Gordon Bell in 1914—dropping a Whitehead torpedo from a Short S.64 seaplane. The success of these experiments led to the construction of the first purpose-built operational torpedo aircraft, the Short Type 184, built from 1915.

An order for ten aircraft was placed, and 936 aircraft were built by ten different British aircraft companies during the First World War. The two prototype aircraft were embarked upon HMS Ben-my Chree, which sailed for the Aegean on 21 March 1915 to take part in the Gallipoli campaign.
Around the same time of the Royal Navy experiments, in Italy Captain Alessandro Guidoni of the Regia Marina was conducting similar trials since 1913, with the help of inventor Raúl Pateras Pescara, and in February 1914 successfully dropped an 800 lb torpedo, leading to disputes over which country first used an aerial torpedo.

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RE: I told you so.... - 2/21/2019 8:51:05 PM   
BBfanboy


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That first line of the article makes no sense. Should it say 1910 instead of 1915?

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RE: I told you so.... - 2/21/2019 9:12:15 PM   
MakeeLearn


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"On 12 August 1915, Flight Commander C.H.K. Edmonds and his observer flew a Short 184 carrying a single torpedo toward the Straits of the Dardanelles. Sighting a Turkish freighter in the Sea of Marmara that was carrying 3,000 Turkish troops to reinforce the Gallipoli Peninsula, Edmonds slowly descended from 800 feet to only 15 feet and closed within 300 feet of the vessel before releasing his torpedo, which struck the troop transport amidships, making the world's first successful combat aerial torpedo attack."

GOOD SHOW! JOLLY GOOD SHOW!


http://www.tailsthroughtime.com/2010/02/captain-murray-f.html






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< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 2/21/2019 9:16:08 PM >


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RE: I told you so.... - 2/21/2019 9:32:20 PM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn
"On 12 August 1915, Flight Commander C.H.K. Edmonds and his observer flew a Short 184 carrying a single torpedo toward the Straits of the Dardanelles. Sighting a Turkish freighter in the Sea of Marmara that was carrying 3,000 Turkish troops to reinforce the Gallipoli Peninsula, Edmonds slowly descended from 800 feet to only 15 feet and closed within 300 feet of the vessel before releasing his torpedo, which struck the troop transport amidships, making the world's first successful combat aerial torpedo attack."

The next paragraph is effing epic

"Edmonds' wingman found himself forced down due to an engine failure. While on the water getting his engine re-started, Dacre noticed a Turkish steam tug cross his nose and he fired his torpedo while still sitting in the water. The torpedo hit the tug squarely and sank it immediately. Having finally gotten his engine restarted, Dacre nursed his Short 184 into the air under heavy fire."

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RE: I told you so.... - 2/21/2019 9:46:12 PM   
MakeeLearn


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Some weapons take centuries to be seen as having military use.




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< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 2/21/2019 9:48:58 PM >


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RE: I told you so.... - 2/22/2019 2:00:34 AM   
AW1Steve


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Of course what isn't said is how Mitchell located the targets. Following a picket ine of Navy ships set up to ensure his safety.

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