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George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/11/2019 11:38:24 AM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


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So I'm playing, got my beer in hand, enjoying life. Backgrond: Playing the Yanks, half my family served in WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Panama, Desert Storm I, II, & Middle East. First piece I wanna buy, General George Patton. He's a 6? Seriously, this #FakeNews or a joke? Then comparison shopping, I see Monty 7. The British India clowns are a 7 also?

Return To Sender, please patch,
-EJR



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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/11/2019 4:17:05 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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The comparative ratings are pretty much what they've been for many many years and in previous releases, I don't recall changing them, but one thing that is different from before is that their rating will increase as you research Command and Control doctrine, so the US can easily raise Patton to a higher level.

Chances are, given the US's investment capabilities, that he'll soon have a higher rating than General Slim - who was certainly no clown, far from it.

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/11/2019 9:44:48 PM   
demyansk


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I have to write
What is *****?
Guess

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/11/2019 10:14:28 PM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


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Hold on a minute. You're talking about William Slim, called Uncle Bill? Creepy Uncle Bill was a predator, he's the first unit I disband, immediately! Yeah, he gets rating 10 for running Fairbridge Farm.

+5 technology factor for that awful Rolls Royce movement.





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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/12/2019 4:21:44 PM   
Markiss


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If it makes you feel better, you can always rename the "Eisenhower" unit "Patton". I always took the ratings to be arbitrary and related more to game balance than actual historical effectiveness.

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/12/2019 10:25:01 PM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


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General Burkhalter,

I agree, that I can always edit, make my own mods, etc. The real problem. How is George Patton a 6? It's an insult. Patton is turning over in his grave. I quickly scan Monty is a 7, WTF and all the British Pervs (General Slim) in India are 7. It really bothers me.

Without debating ever battle, position or detail of other leaders. I just don't get it.

Dumbfounded, how George is a 6.
-EJR

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/13/2019 2:52:19 AM   
Markiss


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EJJR,
Let me compliment you on recognizing the picture. I thought I was the only one old enough to get it, I was beginning to feel lonely.
On the subject at hand, I have noticed that American commanders are undervalued in this game as a whole, I always wrote it off to some kind of eurocentricness. American success was only due to material superiority, blah blah blah. Anyone who actually studies history, especially Patton's success after Cobra, when he was deprived of supplies and some of his best units, will find otherwise.
But we must remember that in Europe, WW2 is still very political, and national pride is at stake, rendering reality irrelevant. If American dominance was truly represented, the Axis would not have a chance, and so game balance also plays a part, as I state above. I would like to see some of the best commanders more properly represented, and some of the rest rated lower, instead of them almost all being a 6, as the game is currently. Would it really hurt to make Patton and 8 or 9, and reduce some of the less notable commanders to a 4 or 5? Probably not. But, you would likely get a negative reaction from some of the European players, and from the game designers standpoint, it is probably better not to stir the pot.
Battle on.

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/13/2019 9:41:26 AM   
sapper32


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General Slim a clown ? Really, Granted Monty wasn't very imaginative on the offense and had to be gently steered in the right direction by the likes of Alexander, Also Brooke was highly regarded along with other generals in British service.
I'm no expert on US Generals but I do know Bradly was highly regarded, Patton was very aggressive minded but also some US commanders were less than competent ( Fredendall ) US II Corps Commander during the Torch operation ?

< Message edited by sapper32 -- 2/13/2019 9:47:20 AM >


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The battle of Medjerda is almost forgotten,but was fought against highly disciplined German troops and blasted a route straight to Tunis it was a perfect infiltration battle and should be remembered as the best fought British battle of the war.

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/13/2019 10:25:35 AM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


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Anyone watch the news anymore? Maybe it's #FakeNews. I don't know. Saw it on the TV few years back, the Fairbridge Farms story. British put it out, included some 'Duke' also.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2581264/British-military-commander-considered-one-UKs-greatest-World-War-Two-generals-accused-molesting-children-sat-Rolls-Royce.html

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/13/2019 10:47:58 AM   
sapper32


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Maybe these accusations are for a different forum ? Not Matrix games forums.

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The battle of Medjerda is almost forgotten,but was fought against highly disciplined German troops and blasted a route straight to Tunis it was a perfect infiltration battle and should be remembered as the best fought British battle of the war.

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/13/2019 1:08:33 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sapper32

Maybe these accusations are for a different forum ? Not Matrix games forums.


Yeah, I don't think that belongs here. It's disgusting and reprehensible, but has nothing to do with what the thread is about.

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/13/2019 4:54:44 PM   
James Taylor

 

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JJR's never been known to be "politically correct"!

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/13/2019 5:01:21 PM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: sapper32

Maybe these accusations are for a different forum ? Not Matrix games forums.


Yeah, I don't think that belongs here. It's disgusting and reprehensible, but has nothing to do with what the thread is about.


Correct, the thread is about Patton being a 6. Didn't want the thread to go 0 to 60 in seconds. Was just answering the question about the adjective 'clown'. When the United Kingdom leader(s) show up in Staff Cars, Rolls-Royces, etc. and are wearing that particular clothing, and there's hundreds of eye witnesses that this dude is wearing a clown costume, figure this should come into effect for a Leader's rating. Now back to Patton.

Praise for Patton's skills per wikipedia---

Adolf Hitler reportedly called him "that crazy cowboy general".
Erwin Rommel credited Patton with executing "the most astonishing achievement in mobile warfare"
Generaloberst Alfred Jodl, chief of staff of the German Army, stated that Patton "was the American Guderian.
Generalfeldmarschall Albert Kesselring noted that "Patton had developed tank warfare into an art..."
Field Marshal Gerd von Rundstedt stated simply of Patton, "He is your best."
Joseph Stalin was apparently an admirer, stating that the Red Army could neither have planned nor executed Patton's rapid armored advance across France.
President de Gaulle gave a speech placing Patton's achievements alongside those of Napoleon.
Field Marshal Sir Bernard Montgomery who appears to have admired Patton's ability to command troops in the field, if not his strategic judgment.

The reason why Ike (thus Omar Bradley too) did not care for Patton, Eisenhower wanted to be POTUS after the war. Ever seen the movie 'Brass Target'? There's alot of #FakeNews.

Standing on the actual actions of Patton, I agree, he screwed up on trying to rescue his Son-In-Law, got some soldiers dead. Patton's ground gain and kill ratio "2nd to None". Imagine if Ike actually cut him loose. Of course he didn't reply in Sicily.

Patton is a 9, well, an 8 at minimum.

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/13/2019 8:05:09 PM   
Capitaine

 

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You may be assuming that a leader counter exclusively reflect a General's leadership and fighting talent. In most games that's not always the case. It can also reflect the quality of troops under the General and/or the nation's command and fighting expertise at that time in the war. I don't know how Strat Command derives its leader-HQ ratings, but that is possible.

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/13/2019 11:52:55 PM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


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Herr Capitaine,

You've made an excellent point. Take any successful combination of people & try think about all the recursive paths that may have been, either positive or negative. Kind of like K-Maps in electric circuits. Elvis Presley and his Manager Colonel Tom Parker; Tigers Woods/his Dad; The Odd Couple Tony Randall/Jack Klugman; Lewis/Clark the explorers; Bill Gates/Paul Allen; TomBrady/NewEndlandPatriots/BillBelichek. People need Leaders, Followers need leaders. It's a two-edge-sword. Are things luck, destiny, fate, coincidence or happenstance?

Back to Patton. Yes, the stars aligned which put him in the situation of being a leader. I believe in divine intervention; things happen for a reason, it's a matter of faith. Like a stage being set. A man is dealt a set of cards; looks around the table of life, how will you play your hand? Patton went full steam ahead. Kind of like evolution of business cycles or even political leadership in the USA. Decisions people make, even at a really early age matter, or possible judgment from their birth lineage. I'm impressed by George Patton's physical skills & sporting abilities. He took advantage of that, opens doors. Not everything is a roadmap dictated by society for success. People rise no higher than the leader's example shown day-in, day-out, rubs off on them, like chemistry. I believe George Washington may have been an angelic or alien being, I could be wrong. Back to reality. Yes, Leaders need the right crew. Duke Basketball's Coach K can go recruit his talent, only needs 12 on the roster, only 5 on the court. Patton did the best he could. Same could be said for the Germans, British, Russians, Whosoever.

I will accept the fact the game has Patton at 6, I don't have to like it, but I accept it.

Don't Be Cruel,
-Elvis Jon Jones Rambo

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/14/2019 12:31:39 PM   
amandkm

 

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It is also situational. People can shine in some circumstances, but fail in others. Think about how what would have happened if Othello and Hamlet been in each other's places? Two pretty short plays, if you ask me!

More to the point, Had Patton been in Wellington's place in Portugal, when time and circumstance called for an intelligent and active stand on the defensive, I doubt history would have remembered him kindly. However, when and where he was, certainly he was America's best.. esp when compared with MacArthur!

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/14/2019 2:08:35 PM   
Markiss


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It has become fashionable in recent years to bash MacArthur, most of it undeserved in my opinion. He was not a likable man, but the greatest leaders are often arrogant and abrasive. He does not translate well by today's sensibilities. He was a man of his time, even hearkening back to an earlier age. But I understand it is difficult to resist engaging in presentism.
If you look at his military career from his exploits as a junior officer in the first world war to the brilliant invasion at Inchon, I think his greatness is undeniable.
If you actually read about his life, you might understand how he came to think of himself as infallible. The invasion at Inchon was opposed by nearly everyone, because they lacked his vision. He got his way through raw leadership ability, and he was right. Few other men in history could have pulled that off.
He was not a politician, and maybe in the end the world passed him by. But as a military leader, few rose to his level.

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/14/2019 2:31:53 PM   
amandkm

 

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I was looking at and speaking entirely to his performance in WW2. His absolute failure in readying the Philippines even after hearing of Pearl Harbor and thus allowing the 7th AF to be destroyed on he ground should have put him in the same place as Kimmell and Short, but his political skill (which I consider far higher than his military, for the record) rendered him somewhat immune to sacking.

His inept defense of the islands certainly cannot justify any sort of high estimation of his abilities during that war either, nor can his unwillingness to cooperate with the Navy in the conduct of the war.

To be fair, he did do well in WW1, and the reaction to the early reverses in Korea was excellent by any measure.

As a politician, his post-war administration of Japan does much to redeem his reputation, and rightly so, but I do NOT consider him any sort of a role model for American Generals.

< Message edited by amandkm -- 2/14/2019 2:33:09 PM >

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/14/2019 4:50:13 PM   
Markiss


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Good point about the initial defense of the Philippines, I believe he was still fighting the last war at that time, and had not fully grasped the significance of air power.
Inter-service rivalry in the pacific was prevalent, due to limited resources and conflicting strategies. I don't think MacArthur deserves any more blame than anyone else for that, it was a product of the situation.
In Japan, he simply imposed his will. I'm not that makes him a politician, he certainly was no Ike. His moderation in dealing with the Japanese was due to his vision of the future, where he saw Japan as an important ally. And a correct vision it was.
He was far from perfect, I just think that he does not deserve the comprehensive scorn modern historians like to heap upon him. "Lay low the mighty", and all that rot, is a little too prevalent for my taste in the current batch of writers.



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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/14/2019 5:03:56 PM   
amandkm

 

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On that, we can agree. As you say, he was a man of his era (or the one prior). At any event, I think the point stands that we can easily quibble about a point here or there for most leaders, and that the values can be construed to include other intangibles concerning the relationship of leaders to the led, as was mentioned prior, and Patton certainly is as susceptible to the revisionist impulse as any other.

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/15/2019 12:03:02 AM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


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Why is there an Eisenhower HQ-piece, he was a back seat driver. Patton was forced to listen to him & Bradley. Could/Should the game include Hitler/Musso/Stalin/Churchill counters, just a thought.

Far as Daddy Mac --- His son's name tells me alot about him. "Arthur MacArthur"? That's some goofy stuff. Okay, lets blame his wife. Daddy Mac screwed up in the Philippines, that's for sure. Okay, he wasn't ready for the Big Game, Big Prizes just yet in WW2. But he messed up on that 1st call. Many young American lives destroyed, a nightmare. My friend's Dad walked their, awful, he survived.

Now in that little Conflict, aka the Forgotten War, this I take more personal. Had 5 different direct relatives involved, and multiple friend's Dads. Daddy Mac and Truman had different POV. How much war did Uncle Sam wanna make? Blessed are the peacemakers. South Korea loves us, I've been there multiple times.

By not finishing the job in North Korea, we still got "Rocketman", but looks like the Donald has that under control.

-EJR

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/15/2019 3:58:57 PM   
Steely Glint


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This used to be a nice forum.

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/16/2019 10:58:52 PM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


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What you talking about Steely Glint? There's men here playing games. The server is down or something right now.

Quit taking life so seriously. Think about it, nobody was addressing you directly, and you go into Snowflake mode over some words typed on a screen about George Patton. If you want, I can whisper sweet nothings about the game Chutes & Ladders. Wait, lets go put our bike helmets on to really be safe. Find your Happy Place in life, don't worry about what other people do. IF you don't like a thread, stay outta it. Especially a friendly conversation. I re-read the entire thread, what's the specific problem that your opinion is not valued. If you got something to say about the subject, type it. Good grief Charlie Brown. Are you a Hall Monitor?

Go listen to some Elvis Ballads (Love Me Tender, Can't Help Falling in Love), have drink, smoke a bowl (if it's legal where you are).

With all sincerity,
-The king of Rock 'n Roll


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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/17/2019 12:38:19 AM   
Tidavis


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I just browsed thru the Generals of the major powers. Patton is rated the same as several of the Chinese Nationalist leaders.

May I ask who did the ratings and if there any writings/articles available that might reveal a bias? To rank Patton the same as some warlord just doesn't seem right to me.

Also have to agree that Eisenhower shouldn't be in the game. His was never a field command and IMO should not be represented as one.

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/17/2019 2:36:12 AM   
johanssb

 

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Students of Sun Tzu ?

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/17/2019 7:11:56 AM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tidavis

I just browsed thru the Generals of the major powers. Patton is rated the same as several of the Chinese Nationalist leaders.

May I ask who did the ratings and if there any writings/articles available that might reveal a bias? To rank Patton the same as some warlord just doesn't seem right to me.

Also have to agree that Eisenhower shouldn't be in the game. His was never a field command and IMO should not be represented as one.


Yep I changed both of these in my mod. Patton over Montgomery for sure. Eisenhower in the field? Nope!

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 2/17/2019 7:12:50 AM >


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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/17/2019 7:32:51 AM   
Bylandt11


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I have to agree on Patton. All generals in the game have ratings that are more or less in line with my (limited) knowledge on the subject. Give or take 1. Patton is the only one with an obviously wrong rating. Should at least get a 7. More likely an 8.

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/17/2019 9:54:21 AM   
xwormwood


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Guys, just rename the units on you own, how hard can it be?

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/17/2019 12:03:51 PM   
Schokolokos

 

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American Leaders so great, lets make them even greater and give them lvl 100 at least.

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RE: George Patton a 6, who's smoking the legal weed - 2/17/2019 12:14:09 PM   
VPaulus

 

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Any more mention to present politics and we'll close the thread.

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