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Just Curious - 2/11/2019 2:49:10 AM   
canuckgamer

 

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At the top of each counter there are two numbers always the same. Are they both the stacking value? I believe that each stacking point equates to one MP to enter that zone so that would mean the stacking value and the cost it adds to enter the ZOC of that hex is the same. Am I correct or is my assumption wrong? Thanks.
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RE: Just Curious - 2/11/2019 3:13:30 AM   
bcgames


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Top left number is anti-aircraft value and top right number is the stacking points of the unit. Anti-aircraft units have an AA value that is 3x its stacking point value.

On zones of control, yes--the zone of control cost to enter is determined by the stacking value of the relevant enemy unit...up to 10 SP. Points after x10 SP do not cost additional MPs.

< Message edited by bcgames -- 2/11/2019 3:19:25 AM >


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RE: Just Curious - 2/11/2019 3:36:56 PM   
Saint Ruth

 

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Hi, you can right click a unit which will show it's details. Then just move the cursor over the icons and it'll explain
what they are.
Cheers,
Brian

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RE: Just Curious - 2/12/2019 5:51:13 AM   
canuckgamer

 

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Thank you for the replies. I missed the AA icon above the left number. What I was doing was moving my cursor over the number rather than the icon. If a light AA gun has a stacking point value of 3 why not show the AA number as 9? If it was a heavy display a 12.

I have another question about changing the move orders of units. When I change the move order of one unit, lets say from move and defend to move and attack, all friendly units change to move and attack. But I want different move orders for some units so how do I do that?

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RE: Just Curious - 2/14/2019 3:45:52 AM   
bcgames


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Thank-you for your questions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: canuckgamer
If a light AA gun has a stacking point value of 3 why not show the AA number as 9?

I don't remember if there are any AA battalions in the game--but if there are--then as you say, the AA number should be 9. I think all the AA units in the game are batteries or platoons (SP=1). Can you provide examples where there are AA units that should show a 9? If so, we will be happy to fix in the next patch. Thanks!

quote:

ORIGINAL: canuckgamer
If it was a heavy display a 12.

The difference between light and heavy AA is light AA effects are only applied in the hex they occupy; heavy AA effects are applied in the hex they occupy and the hexes adjacent.

quote:

ORIGINAL: canuckgamer
I have another question about changing the move orders of units. When I change the move order of one unit, lets say from move and defend to move and attack, all friendly units change to move and attack. But I want different move orders for some units so how do I do that?

The short answer is -- you can't. Orders are issued to all units in a hex (one or more). There are programmatic challenges that prevent us from allowing for individual orders to individual units in a hex.


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RE: Just Curious - 2/14/2019 5:10:28 AM   
canuckgamer

 

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If I haven't already said it, I very much appreciate your active participation in this forum and the fact you reply to all questions, sometimes with very detailed replies. My friends and I are veteran board and computer wargamers going back over 40 years and am impressed with the concepts and detail of this game. It is a significant learning curve even for us who have played board games going back to the days of Avalon Hill. It is the first WEGO game for us on this scale as we have and still are playing the Combat Mission series which is also WEGO but on a tactical scale. I classify Desert War as operational scale.

I am currently playing a PBEM game of Sidi Barrani with one of my friends and have been looking at some other scenarios on a solo basis as part of my process of learning the mechanics. In your reply to my question about the AA factor you made no mention of battalions. I just looked at the AA units in Sid Barrani and they are all regiments. I saw that they all had a stacking value of 1 and their AA was 3 so they are obviously light AA. What I was referring to was all other ground units where the AA value is identical to their stacking value.

In regards to my question about changing the move order of units, I wasn't talking about units in the same hex but all units on the map. I went back and played around a bit and now I see that if I change the move order of a unit to say move and defend the next unit I choose on the map will also have the same move order so I have to manually change it before I move it if I want that unit to be move and attack.

I had copied your post about combat tips for Desert War and wondering about this:

• Use Combined Arms. Shock-neutral (shock=0) units can attack with tank units and not degrade their Shock modifier. If you attack using shock-capable units with leg infantry, then you will dilute your Shock and have reduced odds.

I then read the shock rules and it looks to me that you have to calculate the odds if it's better to go with an all armour attack or add in some infantry so always using combined arms is not an advantage. It would give you more defensive factors if for example you are attacking with small factor tank regiments. Here is an example so that you can tell me if I am calculating correctly.

If I attack an enemy infantry unit with 3 combat factors with 3 tank regiments, each with 2 combat factors and shock values of 4, then the initial odds are 6 to 3 or 2-1. I then get 4 shifts for shock so the final odds are 6-1.

If I decide to add a motorized infantry with 6 combat factors and 3 stacking points then the initial odds are 12 to 3 or 4-1. However, only 3 of my 6 stacking points have shock so 50%. My shock shift is now reduced by half from 4 to 2 so the final odds are now 6-1 which is the same as if I did not include the motorized infantry. For defense though the hex would have 12 factors which may be advantageous.

What I am saying is that using combined arms is not a tactic you always want to use. You have to calculate what the odds would be when you add each unit when shock is involved. It also doesn't matter whether it is leg infantry or motorized/mechanized infantry as their stacking value is then part of the final schock shift. Is my understanding correct?

Another question. When I was playing solo with the Sid Barrani and Operation Battle Axe scenarios, I could cycle through the units in a specific hex using the C key during the Set Up phase. However, when I moved to the first planning phase the C key did not work. What I found strange was that I could give move orders so it was in fact my planning phase but the C key did not allow me to cycle through the units in a hex.

It seems I am learning something new almost every day with this game. Today I found out about how engineers attempt to clear mines and how you can tell when they have been successful which is just another example confirming my initial comment about the learning curve for this game.

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RE: Just Curious - 2/14/2019 6:13:09 PM   
canuckgamer

 

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Some more questions and comments. In the manual under Offensive Orders it says:

The player can also affect the intensity of a set-piece battles
by changing the Offensive Orders.

However it is not the same as defend orders which are changed by hitting the O key. Looks to me like the intensity of the battle is actually determined by the type of move order, i.e. move and attack vs. move and defend. Am I correct?

Also, since this is a WEGO system what happens if the enemy units in a hex that you moved in to during your planning phase were given orders during the enemy planning phase to move out? Would this mean that there is no combat?



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Post #: 7
RE: Just Curious - 2/15/2019 2:06:15 AM   
bcgames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: canuckgamer
I just looked at the AA units in Sid Barrani and they are all regiments. I saw that they all had a stacking value of 1 and their AA was 3 so they are obviously light AA. What I was referring to was all other ground units where the AA value is identical to their stacking value.

In Battle of Sidi Barrani scenario, I'm fairly certain the AA units are all batteries. Yes, non-AA units have an AA strength equal to their stacking points.

quote:

ORIGINAL: canuckgamer
In regards to my question about changing the move order of units, I wasn't talking about units in the same hex but all units on the map. I went back and played around a bit and now I see that if I change the move order of a unit to say move and defend the next unit I choose on the map will also have the same move order so I have to manually change it before I move it if I want that unit to be move and attack.

That's correct.

quote:

ORIGINAL: canuckgamer
I had copied your post about combat tips for Desert War and wondering about this:

• Use Combined Arms. Shock-neutral (shock=0) units can attack with tank units and not degrade their Shock modifier. If you attack using shock-capable units with leg infantry, then you will dilute your Shock and have reduced odds.

I then read the shock rules and it looks to me that you have to calculate the odds if it's better to go with an all armour attack or add in some infantry so always using combined arms is not an advantage. It would give you more defensive factors if for example you are attacking with small factor tank regiments. Here is an example so that you can tell me if I am calculating correctly.

If I attack an enemy infantry unit with 3 combat factors with 3 tank regiments, each with 2 combat factors and shock values of 4, then the initial odds are 6 to 3 or 2-1. I then get 4 shifts for shock so the final odds are 6-1.

Correct.

quote:

ORIGINAL: canuckgamer
If I decide to add a motorized infantry with 6 combat factors and 3 stacking points then the initial odds are 12 to 3 or 4-1. However, only 3 of my 6 stacking points have shock so 50%. My shock shift is now reduced by half from 4 to 2 so the final odds are now 6-1 which is the same as if I did not include the motorized infantry. For defense though the hex would have 12 factors which may be advantageous.

This is not correct. The motorized infantry is shock neutral--it does not count in the shock calculation. You still get a +4 shift for your armor.

quote:

ORIGINAL: canuckgamer
What I am saying is that using combined arms is not a tactic you always want to use. You have to calculate what the odds would be when you add each unit when shock is involved.

Depends on the situation of course. Regimental integrity, quality differentials, readiness, and/or flank attacks factor in as well when figuring out the ground components contribution to a battle.

quote:

ORIGINAL: canuckgamer
It also doesn't matter whether it is leg infantry or motorized/mechanized infantry as their stacking value is then part of the final schock shift. Is my understanding correct?

No. Only leg infantry matter. Motorized is shock neutral. Mechanized are shock +2. Motorized attacking with mechanized are neutral...so you would get a +2 shift. If mech are attacking with armor, you use the highest shock value to determine final shock. IOW mech becomes neutral when attacking with armor--it's a +4 shift.

quote:

ORIGINAL: canuckgamer
Another question. When I was playing solo with the Sid Barrani and Operation Battle Axe scenarios, I could cycle through the units in a specific hex using the C key during the Set Up phase. However, when I moved to the first planning phase the C key did not work. What I found strange was that I could give move orders so it was in fact my planning phase but the C key did not allow me to cycle through the units in a hex.

Dunno. Sounds like a bug maybe. If you can catch a save game that replicates this behavior that would be great.

quote:

ORIGINAL: canuckgamer
It seems I am learning something new almost every day with this game. Today I found out about how engineers attempt to clear mines and how you can tell when they have been successful which is just another example confirming my initial comment about the learning curve for this game.

Solving a puzzle can be fulfilling or frustrating or both. Desert War has kept me entertained for going on 6 years now(?)...


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RE: Just Curious - 2/15/2019 2:15:20 AM   
bcgames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: canuckgamer
In the manual under Offensive Orders it says:

The player can also affect the intensity of a set-piece battles by changing the Offensive Orders.

However it is not the same as defend orders which are changed by hitting the O key. Looks to me like the intensity of the battle is actually determined by the type of move order, i.e. move and attack vs. move and defend. Am I correct?

To change offensive orders, place the cursor over the hex where an attack has been planned--where the RED attack arrow is located--then hit the O key to cycle through the attack/intensity options (Attack, Attack No Advance, and All-out Attack). Putting the cursor over the hex(es) containing the Attacking units and hitting the O key only changes the defensive posture of the attacking units.

quote:

ORIGINAL: canuckgamer
Also, since this is a WEGO system what happens if the enemy units in a hex that you moved in to during your planning phase were given orders during the enemy planning phase to move out? Would this mean that there is no combat?

No. Combat happens first--before anything moves.

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RE: Just Curious - 2/15/2019 2:18:21 AM   
bcgames


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More about shock calculations can be found here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4451064

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RE: Just Curious - 2/15/2019 3:51:32 AM   
canuckgamer

 

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To change offensive orders, place the cursor over the hex where an attack has been planned--where the RED attack arrow is located--then hit the O key to cycle through the attack/intensity options (Attack, Attack No Advance, and All-out Attack). Putting the cursor over the hex(es) containing the Attacking units and hitting the O key only changes the defensive posture of the attacking units.

This is an example of something that should have been either added to the manual or in the explanation of the hot keys. I printed out the hot key page and when I look at key O it only indicates the change in defensive order. Similarly I mentioned that yesterday I learned about engineers clearing mines. The manual tells you how to attempt to clear a mine but it doesn't tell you how you know it has been successful. I discovered this in post from you on the forum. I think information like these two should be added to the manual in a patch if possible.

If combat happens first, before anything moves and the defending side had ordered units moved in to a hex that I had moved units in to for an attack they could not enter that hex if my attack was successful and forced the original defending units to retreat or if they were eliminated.

I just tried the Introductory Scenario and the same issue. I immediately clicked to finish the set up to get to the first Planning phase and in the planning phase the C key does not work. I had the same experience with the Sid Barrani and Battle Axe scenarios. These were against the AI. If you try it you will see what I mean.

Okay, I now understand Shock, shock neutral units do not have their stacking value added to the stacking points when calculating shock.

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RE: Just Curious - 2/15/2019 11:11:55 AM   
Saint Ruth

 

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Hi, will look at updating the in-game descriptions for those things (and will check out why those hotkeys aren't working).

But I don't quite follow this. If you successfully attack a hex, then the defending side can't move into it (unless the defender attacks that hex). Is there's a problem with that? Or...?
quote:

If combat happens first, before anything moves and the defending side had ordered units moved in to a hex that I had moved units in to for an attack they could not enter that hex if my attack was successful and forced the original defending units to retreat or if they were eliminated.

Cheers,
Brian

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RE: Just Curious - 2/15/2019 8:13:48 PM   
canuckgamer

 

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Sorry I guess I am not being very clear on one of my questions. I asked the following.

Also, since this is a WEGO system what happens if the enemy units in a hex that you moved in to during your planning phase were given orders during the enemy planning phase to move out? Would this mean that there is no combat?

bcgames replied:

No. Combat happens first--before anything moves.

Example 1:
The Axis have an infantry unit in hex D. The Allies have two armoured units three hexes east of hex D. During the Allied planning phase the player plots a move for the two armoured units to move in to hex D. A red attack arrow appears in hex D. During the Axis planning phase the player plots a move for the infantry unit to move out of hex D. So my question was, would there still be combat?

Example 2: Same situation, and the Allies again during their planning phase plots a move for the two armoured units to move in to hex D. There is an Axis AT unit adjacent to hex D, west of it. During the Axis planning phase the player plots the AT unit to move in to hex D.

If combat happens first before anything moves then in both examples there will be a combat resolved with the Allies getting a shock shift (hex D is clear terrain).

However, since this is a WEGO system we thought the timing of moves, i.e. when they occurred in that time segment determined what would happen in the above two examples.

I also saw this in the manual under Meeting Engagement.

Meeting Engagements
If unit(s) with Move and Attack try to move into a
hex in which all of the defenders have moved,
then the resulting battle is a Meeting Engagement.
All units of both sides must be moving for a meeting
engagement.

In my example two, the Allied armoured units were plotted to move in to hex D in the planning phase and the Axis plotted the AT unit to move in to hex D. This goes back to my question about the timing of moves in a time segment. The Allied armoured units begin three hexes from hex D while the Axis AT unit begins adjacent to hex D. I would assume that the AT unit gets there before the Allied armoured units so it would negate some of the shock. However, if combat occurs before movement that would not be the case.

In addition, the combat in hex D would not be a meeting engagement because not all units of both side were moving, the infantry unit began the turn in hex D.

I hope I haven't made this too convoluted but as mentioned we play Combat Mission which is WEGO. Each turn is a one minute segment. In that game the turn is resolved based on the timing of the moves and orders given in the planning phases of the respective sides.

Thanks again to you and bcgames for your patience in answering my questions.

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RE: Just Curious - 2/16/2019 3:12:27 AM   
Rosseau

 

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Threads like these are a huge help in getting into the game. I used to love reading manuals, but not so much anymore.

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RE: Just Curious - 2/16/2019 1:40:02 PM   
Okayrun3254

 

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Recently I went back and replayed the tutorial. I picked up on some features of the game that caused me to rethink. One is the zone of control, and how it affects the connection to the HQ. I realized after the first battle that some of my units advanced into a hex that put them out of reach of the HQ for full supply. Now I start to think how can I fix that situation. Well I need to use my HQ as a mobile HQ and in the planning stage move it up to a place where I anticipate winning the battle and close enough to supply the units that just advanced. This may be obvious to others, but gave me a feel of the depth of this game system. I thought another option would have set my unit not to advance after attacking.

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RE: Just Curious - 2/17/2019 4:07:32 AM   
bcgames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: canuckgamer

Sorry I guess I am not being very clear on one of my questions.

I'm sorry, I don't know if you have a question or are making a declaration. If I'm following, you have found the answer to your question previously stated or you are making a declaration about what you found in the manual that answers your question as previously stated. If so, excellent! If not, let's try again. What question do you have that we have not answered? Just trying to answer the mail.

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RE: Just Curious - 2/17/2019 4:32:51 AM   
bcgames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Okayrun3254

Recently I went back and replayed the tutorial. I picked up on some features of the game that caused me to rethink. One is the zone of control, and how it affects the connection to the HQ. I realized after the first battle that some of my units advanced into a hex that put them out of reach of the HQ for full supply. Now I start to think how can I fix that situation. Well I need to use my HQ as a mobile HQ and in the planning stage move it up to a place where I anticipate winning the battle and close enough to supply the units that just advanced. This may be obvious to others, but gave me a feel of the depth of this game system. I thought another option would have set my unit not to advance after attacking.

Sounds like a good combat tip to me.

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