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So Where are IJA 62 and 63 Divisions???

 
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So Where are IJA 62 and 63 Divisions??? - 1/21/2019 10:31:44 PM   
el cid again

 

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Looking at the OB for Okinawa, I was surprised to find no 62nd Division in the stock database at all.
Nor its companion, formed on the same day (1 March 1943) at the same place (Tsiyaun in Chinese, Yanku
in Japanese). Nor could I find 3 of their four subordinate brigades. One of the 63rd's brigades,
the 67th, is in slot 4310 - so I will convert that slot to be the division. Hard to believe this has
been missed all these years. Am I overlooking something?
Post #: 1
RE: So Where are IJA 62 and 63 Divisions??? - 1/22/2019 5:12:44 AM   
JeffroK


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From: Planning the end of the world, well out to 2023!
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63rd Div was created from 15th IMB which is slot 3494 but in game renames as 67th Div?? But I cant find a 67th Div in my stuff (yet)??

62nd Div is Slot 3510

< Message edited by JeffroK -- 1/22/2019 5:24:35 AM >


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(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 2
RE: So Where are IJA 62 and 63 Divisions??? - 1/22/2019 1:42:29 PM   
Hrafnagud

 

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Japan had raised six new so-called Security Divisions in 1942 – the 58th, 59th, 60th, 68th, 69th, and 70th. These were not raised de novo, they were simply established through the expansion of existing independent mixed brigades (IMBs) based in China.



Basically, to create such a security division, the five independent infantry battalions already forming part of an IMB were bolstered by an additional three independent infantry battalions of reservists in Japan, and reorganised into two new infantry brigades. The artillery unit that had been part of these IMBs was cut, service elements increased slightly, and the resultant mostly infantry force retitled a “division”. TOE allowed a total of 11,459 men, of which 10,204 were in the two infantry brigades. The remaining 1,255 men supported the infantry in the form of a divisional HQ, small engineer unit, signal unit, transport unit with two horse-drawn companies and a motorised company with 55 trucks, and a veterinary hospital. These “divisions” were meant for static occupation duties only; their most serious shortcoming was a lack of proper artillery support (only sixteen 75mm regimental guns and thirty-two 70mm battalion guns). The issue of a lack of fire support was only addressed in 1945 in respect of these divisions, when the 58th, 59th and 68th Divisions received a mountain artillery battalion each, and the 60th, 69th and 70th Divisions received a 81-mm mortar battalion each.



Japan raised five more so-called security divisions in 1943 – the 62nd, 64th, and 65th in May, and the 63rd and 100th in June. These were simply done through expansion of existing IMBs. In this manner, the 4th IMB became the 62nd Division, the 12th IMB became the 64th Division, the 13th IMB became the 65th Division, the 15th IMB became the 63rd Division, and the 30th IMB became the 100th Division. (Out of interest – the 100th Division was numbered outside of sequence because it was raised in the Philippines, not in China like the rest of the 60-series divisions).



The 1943 security divisions included organic medical personnel in their eight infantry battalions, increasing their size slightly over the 1942 security divisions.



The 62nd Division was stripped down to the bare minimum in early 1944. Rifle company strength was drastically reduced and one 70mm battalion gun platoon dropped from each battalion, resulting in a reduced brigade strength of 3,584, which was supplemented by an engineer unit (174), a signal unit (283), a transport unit (201), a field hospital (308) and a veterinary unit (21). Divisional HQ was 160 men, which brought the revised 62nd Division to a total authorised strength of only 8,315. In August 1944, the division was even further stripped, losing a transport company and some engineering personnel. The remaining approximate 8,000 men were then shipped to Okinawa, where 3,000 Okinawan conscripts were hastily added, mostly to fill out the service elements, allowing experienced Japanese soldiers to bolster the infantry battalions to a new strength of around 1,100. The 62nd was destroyed on Okinawa in June 1945.



The 63rd Division had an initial TOE of 11,677, which was increased to 13,080 by February 1945 thanks to the addition of a mortar artillery unit and the increase of the engineer unit from company to battalion size. In June 1945 the division was transferred from China to the Kwantung Army, where most of the division was taken prisoner by the Soviets in August 1945

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 3
62nd Division - 1/22/2019 3:25:40 PM   
el cid again

 

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Joined: 10/10/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffroK

63rd Div was created from 15th IMB which is slot 3494 but in game renames as 67th Div?? But I cant find a 67th Div in my stuff (yet)??

62nd Div is Slot 3510


It indeed is in 3510. But it does not form in 1943! It has a fictional 75 mm gun battalion. And it is not where it formed -
at Yanku - it is at Pieping. Still - it is present. In game search failed to reveal it.

But thank you very much. I don't want to have a duplicate division.

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 4
RE: So Where are IJA 62 and 63 Divisions??? - 1/22/2019 3:31:19 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16393
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline

Thank you for all the detail



quote:

ORIGINAL: Hrafnagud

Japan had raised six new so-called Security Divisions in 1942 – the 58th, 59th, 60th, 68th, 69th, and 70th. These were not raised de novo, they were simply established through the expansion of existing independent mixed brigades (IMBs) based in China.



Basically, to create such a security division, the five independent infantry battalions already forming part of an IMB were bolstered by an additional three independent infantry battalions of reservists in Japan, and reorganised into two new infantry brigades. The artillery unit that had been part of these IMBs was cut, service elements increased slightly, and the resultant mostly infantry force retitled a “division”. TOE allowed a total of 11,459 men, of which 10,204 were in the two infantry brigades. The remaining 1,255 men supported the infantry in the form of a divisional HQ, small engineer unit, signal unit, transport unit with two horse-drawn companies and a motorised company with 55 trucks, and a veterinary hospital. These “divisions” were meant for static occupation duties only; their most serious shortcoming was a lack of proper artillery support (only sixteen 75mm regimental guns and thirty-two 70mm battalion guns). The issue of a lack of fire support was only addressed in 1945 in respect of these divisions, when the 58th, 59th and 68th Divisions received a mountain artillery battalion each, and the 60th, 69th and 70th Divisions received a 81-mm mortar battalion each.



Japan raised five more so-called security divisions in 1943 – the 62nd, 64th, and 65th in May, and the 63rd and 100th in June. These were simply done through expansion of existing IMBs. In this manner, the 4th IMB became the 62nd Division, the 12th IMB became the 64th Division, the 13th IMB became the 65th Division, the 15th IMB became the 63rd Division, and the 30th IMB became the 100th Division. (Out of interest – the 100th Division was numbered outside of sequence because it was raised in the Philippines, not in China like the rest of the 60-series divisions).



The 1943 security divisions included organic medical personnel in their eight infantry battalions, increasing their size slightly over the 1942 security divisions.



The 62nd Division was stripped down to the bare minimum in early 1944. Rifle company strength was drastically reduced and one 70mm battalion gun platoon dropped from each battalion, resulting in a reduced brigade strength of 3,584, which was supplemented by an engineer unit (174), a signal unit (283), a transport unit (201), a field hospital (308) and a veterinary unit (21). Divisional HQ was 160 men, which brought the revised 62nd Division to a total authorised strength of only 8,315. In August 1944, the division was even further stripped, losing a transport company and some engineering personnel. The remaining approximate 8,000 men were then shipped to Okinawa, where 3,000 Okinawan conscripts were hastily added, mostly to fill out the service elements, allowing experienced Japanese soldiers to bolster the infantry battalions to a new strength of around 1,100. The 62nd was destroyed on Okinawa in June 1945.



The 63rd Division had an initial TOE of 11,677, which was increased to 13,080 by February 1945 thanks to the addition of a mortar artillery unit and the increase of the engineer unit from company to battalion size. In June 1945 the division was transferred from China to the Kwantung Army, where most of the division was taken prisoner by the Soviets in August 1945


(in reply to Hrafnagud)
Post #: 5
Slot 3494 - 1/22/2019 3:42:52 PM   
el cid again

 

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Joined: 10/10/2005
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The 15th Independent Infantry Brigade slot 3494 BOTH renames as the 67th
Division AND is considered to be a daughter of the 63rd Infantry Division!
This since stock and was included in all RHS scenarios as such.

Probably the 4th, 12th, 13th, 15th and 30th IMB need to upgrade to the
62nd, 64th, 65th, 63rd and 100th Divisions, respectively, on the correct
dates.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 6
62nd Div CO - 1/22/2019 4:56:08 PM   
el cid again

 

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The leader database has the Commanding Officer of 62nd Division.

It is Leader slot 107, Fujioka Takeo


(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 7
RE: So Where are IJA 62 and 63 Divisions??? - 1/23/2019 9:24:05 AM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1826
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Looking at the OB for Okinawa, I was surprised to find no 62nd Division in the stock database at all.
Nor its companion, formed on the same day (1 March 1943) at the same place (Tsiyaun in Chinese, Yanku
in Japanese). Nor could I find 3 of their four subordinate brigades. One of the 63rd's brigades,
the 67th, is in slot 4310 - so I will convert that slot to be the division. Hard to believe this has
been missed all these years. Am I overlooking something?


As you already found out, you overlooked something. They were (of course) always in stock, that is, players were always able to form them from their components (with some abstractions due to the way the game engine/database works). Hard to believe that you missed this all these years moding the game

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 8
RE: So Where are IJA 62 and 63 Divisions??? - 1/25/2019 2:01:23 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16393
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
Not properly.

They did not have field artillery, but are shown with it. They formed on 3 March 1943, but this
is omitted. They formed at Yanku, but are shown as Peking.

Looking at China type brigades and divisions, I found many brigades rename as divisions, and at least
one both renames as one division OR combines with another brigade to form a DIFFERENT division.
Renaming a brigade as a division does not change its order of battle as it should. Sometimes only
one brigade "combines" into a division - which kind of works - but you start at half strength. Some
brigades rename or combine into the wrong division. Dates and locations are more often wrong than
right. And apparently no one bothered to check the order of battle - they just guessed - in particular
re field artillery. It will take time to be sure (since division names get hidden as renames), but
it appears several ARE missing entirely, and I think one is fictional. Trusting stock OB data is
not wise, particularly in China. Doubly if you want the right unit at the right date at the right place
with something close to the right order of battle. I gave priority to checking to more powerful units
on the theory weak units matter less and one cannot check everything. But it appears one should simply
check everything. It appears no editor ever checked the data entry and just accepted whatever was submitted.

(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 9
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