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Construction value of Construction Bns

 
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Construction value of Construction Bns - 1/21/2019 12:59:25 AM   
xhoel


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What is the actual construction value of Construction/Labor Battalions? Usually it shows as 1 but I'm having a hard time believing that that is the case. Is this value multiplied with something?

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RE: Construction value of Construction Bns - 1/21/2019 6:44:07 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

What is the actual construction value of Construction/Labor Battalions? Usually it shows as 1 but I'm having a hard time believing that that is the case. Is this value multiplied with something?


They noramlly start at one fully manned, going up with mor, exp so could finish at 3 possibly 4 but the norm is 2. They are small units and usually with justs picks and shovels. Sov Eng-Sapper bde start around 8 reflecting their size. There are a number of other modifiers to fort building but one many forget is any none const/eng units have their construction value divided by 5 when next to an enemy unit. See section 15.3.2.1.

< Message edited by Chris21wen -- 1/21/2019 7:12:29 AM >

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RE: Construction value of Construction Bns - 1/21/2019 10:42:37 AM   
xhoel


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Ah I was hoping there was something I was missing but it doesn't appear so. Thanks Chris!

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RE: Construction value of Construction Bns - 1/22/2019 10:57:51 AM   
Colbert

 

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sappers are different - their construction is not divided by five

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RE: Construction value of Construction Bns - 1/22/2019 5:50:29 PM   
Zemke


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I keep learning so much reading these forums, that I keep wondering how did I mess that in the manual.

What this game needs more of and WitE2 will need are player guides, How to Play __________, Axis or Soviet. I have seen one for Germans, "Operation Boot Camp" by By Don Lazov, and hats off to him for his work. It is pretty long and has good stuff in there.

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RE: Construction value of Construction Bns - 1/23/2019 7:11:35 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Colbert

sappers are different - their construction is not divided by five


That's what I said '...none const/eng units have their construction value divided by 5 when next to an enemy unit' sappers being engineers and all that.

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RE: Construction value of Construction Bns - 1/23/2019 7:18:54 AM   
SparkleyTits

 

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They also apply on recently flipped hexes which is usually divided by 5 too!

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RE: Construction value of Construction Bns - 1/24/2019 5:35:40 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

They also apply on recently flipped hexes which is usually divided by 5 too!


Can't say I've noticed this but I'm not surprised. The idea behind pending friendly hexes is they are not completely clear of the enemy, requiring mopping up so to speak. Can't have all your troops digging in under such circumstances.

If this can be confirmed I'll add it to the relevant section.

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RE: Construction value of Construction Bns - 1/24/2019 2:51:32 PM   
xhoel


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Thank you all for the help guys. Digging is the name of the game in the blizzard :D

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RE: Construction value of Construction Bns - 2/25/2019 8:57:30 AM   
juv95hrn

 

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So what subordinate units do HQs send their Sappers and engineers to support in fort construction? Is it random, or do they prioritize units at the front, to avoid the 80% reduction? That would make them more worthwhile to invest in.

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RE: Construction value of Construction Bns - 2/26/2019 10:01:46 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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Somewhere in the forum I read it's the biggest that gets priority. This is not in the manual. Don't forget the game also records percentage progress value built towards the next level and uses it in combat. So if the hex popup says level 1 (48%) it is an effective size 1.48 whule another could be 1 (7%) or 1.07 so the first would get the support. If it was a level 2 then it would get priority. I suppose they could be a tie then probably random.

This section is the manual is often ovelooked or not fully understood.

15.3.2.4. Support Unit Assist to Fort Level Construction
Construction and engineer support units attached to headquarters units in the combat unit's chain of command can assist those combat
units in constructing fort levels if the applicable headquarters unit passes a leader admin check. A headquarters unit can only send one
support unit per turn to a combat unit but up to three HQs in the chain of command may do so if in range. The headquarters unit that
the combat unit is directly attached must be within five hexes of that combat unit. In addition, no more than three levels of
headquarters units in the combat units chain of command can assist, and each higher headquarters unit that may provide support units
must be within five hexes of the next lower level headquarters unit. For example, in order for construction and engineer support units
to assist down the entire eligible chain of command, a German combat unit attached to a Corps headquarters unit must be able to trace
five hexes back to that Corps HQ unit. The Corps HQ unit in turn must be able to trace five hexes back to the Army HQ unit to which it
is attached, and finally the Army HQ unit must be able to trace five hexes back to the Army Group HQ. In the above example, if the unit
was within 5 hexes of its Corps HQ but the Corps was not within 5 HQ of its Army HQ, then only support units in the Corps HQ would
be able to potentially assist the unit. Each eligible support unit may assist the fort level building of no more than one combat unit per
turn.

For an HQs to provide constrution unit support two things must happen
1. The fort unit must be attached to it
and
2. It must me within 5 hexes

To improve constuction you can also attach constuction units directly to the fort unit through the fort units assign link found on its detail window. I think this has a small quirk associated with it in that although it list all constr/eng available in the units chain of command it always picks one from the highest HQ. So for example Stavka before front before army etc. Should this not be the other way round?

Note 1. There is no automatic attachment of support units to combat units, you have to do it manually through the assign button in the units detail window.
Note 2. Attaching Fort units to HQs does not cost any APs if it comes from a higher HQ however it does increase the HQs command points.
Note 3. I can see no way of telling if the HQ sent any construction units to actually assist in a forts construction. Nor can you tell it any attached constr/eng it the fort unit itself helped but they do, somewhat. I'm curretly testing to see how much.



< Message edited by Chris21wen -- 2/26/2019 10:02:32 AM >

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RE: Construction value of Construction Bns - 3/4/2019 1:04:14 PM   
Chris21wen

 

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I got bored with more time
What is in the manual can be seen in the previous post, its been like that from the start.

Constructing Forts

All tests where carried out using the 1942 Campaign scenario. Two reasons; I didn’t want First Turn nor First Winter rules interfering and the Soviet Eng-Sap Bde was available. No combat took place in any test. As this scenario has no Soviet Construction Bns nor Eng-Sap Bdes when it starts (I find that weird but it is what it is) all Bn/Bde had to be built from scratch on the turn the fort was built except for some tests were full Bn/Bde were use.

I recorded six things:

Level 2: Build time in turns between level 0-2.
Level 3: Build time in turns between level 2-3.
Increment: Percentage added per turn between level 2-3 without any assistance.
Bonus: Build percentage added by construction units, generally a Bn but could be Bde.
Bonus increment: Percentage per turn between level 2-3 with assistance.
Total: In turns to reach 3.1, the max for a fort in clear/town terrain.

The same Army and level 9 leader except for two tests when I checked admin effects. The army had no units attached other than applicable construction support units and was always 1 hex from the fort, whether attached or not. Army’s TOE was set at 100%.

The Front used the same admin 6 leader throughout. Like the army it no units attached and only applicable construction support units. It was either 4 or 8 hexes away from the fort. Front’s TOE was set at 100%.

STAVKA was 20 plus hexes away so never in range of any test and therefore had no effect in any test.

One strange anomaly in all this testing was, I never got an odd number?? E.g. 1.18, 2.80 and never 0.43, 2.35 etc.

Time to reach 100% TOE
It took on average 4 turns for the Fort to reach 100% TOE. No construction was ever recorded on the first two turns of any test although a mud turn on either always resulted in a slower level 2, hence total build.

The average time for a Construction Bn to reach 100% TOE varied depending upon were it was! Not, as you might think Army or Front but HQ or fort. When attached to an HQ it took on average 9 turns; when attached to the fort, 7 turns? Strangely the Eng Sap Bde took same length time??. Interesting in it’s own right. The more Bns there where the slower it tended to take to reach level 2 but usually only by one turn. This was often offset by the fact that there were more of them so the level 3 was reduced.

Weather
Weather was either clear or mud. I forgot about mud so the first few test I carried out resulted in a mud turns occurring. There was always mud turns 16-19 (in Oct), turn 20 snow all the rest clear. I didn’t want mud in the test so I often had to back track one turns to get back to clear. I could do nothing about October’s mud. The effects of MUD on construction is to HALF the build rate for the turn.

Total Build time to reach level 3.10.
Without any assistance the total was 19 turns. I ran this test 3 times and it highlighted mud turns halve the construction speed for the turn. Even 1 mud turn resulted in it taking 20 turns. I never had more than one mud turn excluding those in Oct.

The increment was almost consistent 12% resulting in level 3 being 8 turns. This is an important figure as you’ll see. I chose to record this increment between level 2-3 because the build speed had slowed, resulting in more of them to record and the construction units/fort TOE were always over 98%.

Fort TOE Size
In a few tests I set the TOE of the fort to 60%. This had a marked effect on construction time. It took on average two more turns to reach level 2 and the fort never reached level 3 in the 20 turns.

Each increment was 8%, roughly 2/3rd which is what you’d expect with only 2/3rd TOE. It was 4% in mud.

Army Admin Tests
With one construction Bn placed in the HQ the tests were run 2 times at admin levels 3 (lowest I could find), 5 and 9. In all the tests the total time was only ever reduced by 1 turn, e.g. it took 18 turns.

The increments could change, with the construction Bn adding a possible 2% bonus. Not much and would only ever results in a 16% increase over 8 turns for a typical level 3 time. The problem is it based on an Admin check and therefore random. As you expect the unit passed more checks at level 9 than 5 etc but it had negligible overall effect. They all took 18 turns.

Next step was to add more construction Bns, 2, 3 and finally 6 to the HQ. Not one of the tests ever produced more than one bonus, so the bonus increment never exceed 14% (12+2%). There was never more than one bonus added per turn no matter how many construction Bns I used. What did change was how often they occurred, i.e. the more Bns there were the more chance there was of the bonus being generated. Even when a bonus was applied every turn for level 3 (8 turns) the total was only ever reduced to 18 turns. It might be possible for it to get to 17 if all the admin checks succeeded.

The next series involved using Sapper Bn. Because they reached max TOE quicker (one turn, yes one turn) the level 2 times were always one less than when a construction Bn was used. They also consistently generate the bonus more often but the overall effect of the two was to only reduce total build to 17 turns.

For the final test I used using 1, 2 or 3 100% TOE Sapper Bns from the start. Basically everything was quicker to level 2, level 3 and total time. Total time was now 15-16 turns. Note that when I used 3 full Bns every level 3 turn had a bonus generated but it still took 7 turns to reach level 3

Observations
Worrying about admin as far as construction goes is pointless. Proviso is, it might at higher levels which I have never tested.

As far as the bonus goes it appears to be working as intended, there was never more than one bonus of 2% added in any test I did that involved only one HQ and one fort no matter how many construction units there were in the HQ. Putting more than one construction unit into the HQ improves the chance of this bonus being generated however. Using Sapper Bn does, as does 100% TOE units but the best you can do is reduce total by 4 turns, mud allowing.

More to follow.

< Message edited by Chris21wen -- 3/5/2019 7:43:33 AM >

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RE: Construction value of Construction Bns - 3/4/2019 6:26:35 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


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You really took the tests seriously, can't add much to the discussion unfortunately. Except that I recall only one construction unit can be sent per unit, so the army can't send two or more construction batallions to the fortified zone.

quote:

When attached to an HQ it took on average 9 turns; when attached to the fort, 7 turns?

My guess is that the batallion attached to the FZ helps always, while the one in the HQ sometimes fails the commitment check?

One tip for future tests, setting up specific test scenarios can sometimes be done more efficiently with the editor, so you do not have to fiddle around with existing scenarios.





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RE: Construction value of Construction Bns - 3/5/2019 7:44:11 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

.... Except that I recall only one construction unit can be sent per unit, so the army can't send two or more construction batallions to the fortified zone.
....



You are correct. I've altered my observations I got mixed up with another test I did.

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RE: Construction value of Construction Bns - 3/25/2019 7:47:15 PM   
juv95hrn

 

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Well if you have a "digging army" behind teh front, it still appears that it helps, even if not much, attaching at least one SU batallion for each digging military unit to that army has.

Early 1942 the Batallions I have, have CVs of 1-4.

< Message edited by juv95hrn -- 4/10/2019 4:30:58 PM >

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