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HQ Supply Distribution Matrix (PDF) - 1/19/2019 12:08:38 AM   
Kornstalx

 

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I made a quick and simple Supply Distribution chart for HQs to help me predict supply on a different hex without having to actually move the HQ.



Link to the PDF

First determine the raw underlying supply of the hex where you want to move the HQ. This is not the value that is shown by the "S" hotkey (those values take into account the HQ's current distribution -- you need the value of the hex itself without the current HQ influence). You can see an example of the raw hex value in the red box at top right image of the PDF. Notice how this is different than what you see with the "S" hotkey. To determine this raw value of a hex that's near the HQ, without actually moving it, you need to count hexes from the nearest supply source (this can be another HQ!). Remember that supply decrements by 1 point per hex in clear terrain. Mountains and other negative terrain can make the supply value decrease more than this, so take that into consideration. You can use the "S" hotkey of the current distribution overlay to identify double-drops in supply between adjacent hexes, and help you determine where negative terrain actually lies.

After determining the raw supply value of a hex, cross reference it with the strength value of the HQ itself. The number you get will be the amount of supply provided starting with the HQ's own hex next turn when you move him to that location. Green denotes maximum supply possible, while yellow and red represent steps down from this max.

I hope this helps take some of the black voodoo magic out of anticipating HQ supply before you actually move the HQ.

*************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

I have updated the chart to reflect all changes since the game's manual was written. This includes testing every single combination of HQ Strength to Supply possible, by using a custom scenario.

*************************************************************************************************************************************************************************


< Message edited by Kornstalx -- 1/19/2019 6:24:19 AM >
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RE: HQ Supply Distribution Matrix (PDF) - 1/19/2019 1:42:35 AM   
James Taylor

 

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I believe once a supply level falls below 3 the 10 strength HQ will only provide a supply of 5.

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RE: HQ Supply Distribution Matrix (PDF) - 1/19/2019 2:15:28 AM   
Kornstalx

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: James Taylor

I believe once a supply level falls below 3 the 10 strength HQ will only provide a supply of 5.



Unless they modified it in an undocumented patch change, page 161 of the WaW manual shows the minimum supply distribution value for a strength 9-10 HQ with zero supply is 5. The last sentence on page 161 sets up the chart on page 162 which shows that a strength 10 HQ provides 8 distribution if its supply is at least 1-5. That whole section of the manual is very, very confusing at first read.

That's exactly why I made this chart.

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RE: HQ Supply Distribution Matrix (PDF) - 1/19/2019 2:58:01 AM   
James Taylor

 

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Just because its written don't make it so!

Model it in the game, then tell me I'm wrong.

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RE: HQ Supply Distribution Matrix (PDF) - 1/19/2019 2:59:20 AM   
James Taylor

 

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See Below

< Message edited by James Taylor -- 1/19/2019 3:06:24 AM >


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RE: HQ Supply Distribution Matrix (PDF) - 1/19/2019 3:05:00 AM   
James Taylor

 

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7.25.4 page 160 first asterick

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RE: HQ Supply Distribution Matrix (PDF) - 1/19/2019 3:41:40 AM   
Kornstalx

 

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They really need to fix the manual. Section 7.25.6 directly contradicts the bullet points on the previous page. Also in one part of the manual it says that the Logistics skill will increase these numbers by +1/lvl, but in another section about Logistics, this is completely omitted.

This line in particular is all sorts of bogus (pg 161):

quote:

Final Supply Distribution Value cannot however fall below the HQ’s
Minimum Supply Value, and this can be increased by researching Logistics.

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RE: HQ Supply Distribution Matrix (PDF) - 1/19/2019 4:54:44 AM   
sPzAbt653


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Updating the manual every time a change is made is obviously not a reasonable request. It is up to the players to keep on top of the What's New document, which the developer's are very good about updating. Check yours for the v1.11 from Jan. 2018 for the HQ rules.

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RE: HQ Supply Distribution Matrix (PDF) - 1/19/2019 6:05:49 AM   
Kornstalx

 

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I painstakingly created a bare-bones custom scenario and tested each and every possible combination of strength/supply for an HQ. I have updated the original post with this info.

tl;dr: just throw the manual away

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Post #: 9
RE: HQ Supply Distribution Matrix (PDF) - 1/19/2019 7:50:43 PM   
PHalen


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Thanks Kornstalx!
I find the supply rules tricky to keep up with so your matrix should help.
Any thoughts of doing a similar “dummy” for linked HQ’s..?

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RE: HQ Supply Distribution Matrix (PDF) - 1/20/2019 1:49:21 AM   
James Taylor

 

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Supplies during wartime were "tricky" IRL! Come to think of it, supply side logistics can be that way in present day and no one is even trying to interdict.

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RE: HQ Supply Distribution Matrix (PDF) - 1/22/2019 9:21:40 PM   
codem

 

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Keeping manuals up-to-date is not an unreasonable request. As a software engineer myself, any changes to an application we build, we also update the documentation accordingly. Granted, "small" updates might simply provide updates via "release notes", but major updates (version changes) the manual / documentation is updated to reflect the actual state of the software.

Its not only good practice for the sake of the customer, but also for the software engineers themselves as often the documentation is referred back to when researching an issue and or bringing a junior engineer up to speed on the project / application.

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RE: HQ Supply Distribution Matrix (PDF) - 1/22/2019 10:02:16 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

Keeping manuals up-to-date is not an unreasonable request. As a software engineer myself

When I suggested for another game to keep the pdf version of it's manual constantly updated, for release when any official patch/update or full release, this is the answer I got:
If a manual were updated with every change, we'd all have to read the entire manual every time it changed in order to hope to notice any changes. You can't ask people to re-read the entire manual for patch releases.

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RE: HQ Supply Distribution Matrix (PDF) - 1/23/2019 4:01:55 AM   
Numdydar

 

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Well you could color code the changes but after a few major patches the manual would be a mess with different colored additions and strikeouts.

Plus I'd much rather the developers spend their time fixing issues and creating new content (like a bigger map ) versus spending time updating manuals.

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RE: HQ Supply Distribution Matrix (PDF) - 1/23/2019 1:55:45 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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In fairness, we do attempt to continually update the manual with changes as the game develops, but it could happen where some changes have been missed in the manual. We are only human and I'm sure this is on Bill's radar to inspect further.

Thanks,
Hubert

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RE: HQ Supply Distribution Matrix (PDF) - 1/25/2019 6:11:23 PM   
Yogol

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

In fairness, we do attempt to continually update the manual with changes as the game develops, but it could happen where some changes have been missed in the manual. We are only human and I'm sure this is on Bill's radar to inspect further.

Thanks,
Hubert


If I didn't knew you any better, I'd think you just blamed Bill :)

Just kidding, just kidding!



To the OP: thanks a lot!!!


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RE: HQ Supply Distribution Matrix (PDF) - 1/25/2019 6:54:15 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Too funny and not at all, this has been a crazy week and Bill was knee deep in campaign work and I just wanted to post a quick reply for him (us) as Bill covers the Manual as well.

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RE: HQ Supply Distribution Matrix (PDF) - 1/28/2019 3:27:09 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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Hi everyone

I've been reviewing this and I must admit that I'm struggling to see where the Manual is incorrect.

7.25.4 HQ Supply covers the normal rules for HQ supply distribution, and it ends with a paragraph explaining that a low strength HQ is further penalized in its supply distributing abilities, as per the next section 7.25.5 The Supply Value of Low Strength HQs

Perhaps it is just that sections 7.25.4 through to 7.25.6 are potentially confusing as they can't be taken in isolation?


I can see that 9.9.8. Logistics is missing a mention of Logistics increasing HQ’s minimum supply values by 1 per level.

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RE: HQ Supply Distribution Matrix (PDF) - 1/28/2019 4:03:58 PM   
Kornstalx

 

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I think the last sentence in 7.25.5 is where that section of the manual became muddled for me:

Final Supply Distribution Value cannot however fall below the HQ’s
Minimum Supply Value, and this can be increased by researching Logistics.


Since I couldn't find where the Minimum Supply Value was referenced before that sentence, I assumed it was setting up the next two tables in 7.25.6. But the second sentence in 7.25.6, after the first chart...

If an HQ has access to a supply source of value 1-5, then its Minimum
Supply Value will be as follows:


... implies that a Strength 10 HQ with a supply of 2 will give off 8 supply, based on the next chart. I believe that might be a typo and should say "If an HQ has access to a supply source of value 3-5, then its Minimum". Honestly I just think that whole section is very confusing and it's probably my fault for reading it 10,000 times but coming to different conclusions each time. Something just wasn't adding up. And the boat is still out about the Logistics thing; I don't know if it actually affects these values or not.

In the end it was just easier to make a test scenario and map out the results, hence the graph :)

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RE: HQ Supply Distribution Matrix (PDF) - 1/30/2019 2:23:11 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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Thanks for explaining that, I'll have a think about the text, and yes, your graph looks great!

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RE: HQ Supply Distribution Matrix (PDF) - 1/31/2019 8:23:49 PM   
balto

 

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Kornstalx, thank you for tackling this because I am super lost. I was wondering if this is a correct interpretation of your wonderful chart.

(1) If I place an HQ on a supply hex that the supply hex map says is a 6, it will become a 10. Is that correct?

(2) And similarly, if I place an HQ on a hex that says 4, it will become an 8?

Thank you

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RE: HQ Supply Distribution Matrix (PDF) - 1/31/2019 8:25:11 PM   
balto

 

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Oh damn-it, I am reading where you say the "S" key is not the actual Supply! I give up, thanks.

PS - could we have the "S" show both numbers (w/HQ and without HQ?) in two different colors?

< Message edited by balto -- 1/31/2019 8:26:13 PM >

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RE: HQ Supply Distribution Matrix (PDF) - 2/1/2019 2:10:38 AM   
balto

 

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Hey! As I continue to press the S button, I think I am seeing the HQ Supply hex value and the nonHQ Supply hex value! So if that is correct, everyone is happy here.., right?


I do not see this in the manual. I think this should be stickied somewhere along with the Submarine attack thing when moving.

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RE: HQ Supply Distribution Matrix (PDF) - 2/1/2019 3:31:15 AM   
balto

 

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Using the table above (which is very helpful), I think the table and manual are in error for minimum supply provided by HQ. I also think the game is universally counting all supply sources as a 5, even if they are a 3 (port of Amoy). If you follow me below, I also think the game engine is using 8 as the minimum supply value from an HQ. As a test, at the start of game I used the Japanese HQ in Haikuo and I moved the I Corps to the SE corner of Nanning.

I click S once and I get 8,6,0,0 (I believe this is nonHQ supply and I believe this should be 5,3,0,0 because Haikuo has 5 supply). I click S again, and I get 8,6,5,2.

(1) I click S once:
Starting at Haikuo and going three hexes North, the nonHQ Supply is 8 (Haikuo), the next is 6, the third (Pakhoi) is 0, and the fourth hex (I Corps SE of Nanning) is also 0. So 8,6,0,0. Haikuo is a supply of 5 and without the HQ I believe this should have stayed a five, and should have been 5(Haikuo),3,0,0(I Corps).

(2) I click S twice:
I click the HQ Supply (second click, see above) and it goes 8 (HQ hex, Haikuo),6,5,2. Per the table above, this is correct because Haikuo’s 5 becomes an 8. So the “second click on S” seems to work.

(3) I move the HQ one hex north and it becomes 7,8 (HQ hex),7,4(I Corps). Considering the correct nonHQ Supply should have been 5,3,0,0, this would have placed the HQ on a hex with 3 Supply which is also is an 8.., So again all is good.

(4) Now things appear to go wrong. I move the HQ one more hex north (adjacent to I Corp) and this is supply of 0, which becomes a 5 with the HQ. But the HQ supply says 5,6,8(HQ hex),5(I Corp, SE of Nanning). I believe it should be 5,4,5,2.

If we assume the game engine is correctly performing its supply calculations, then the table (and manual) is incorrect in that the GAME ENGINE IS COUNTING THE MINIMUM SUPPLY IMPACT OF AN HQ TO BE AN 8 AND INCORRECTLY COUNTING ALL SUPPLY SOURCES AS A 5 EVEN IF THEY ARE LOWER. Go thru my numbers above and that would be the solution to the multiple observations above.

PS – if I am wrong, I am going to feel like a complete idiot an I will not post for months due to extreme embarrassment.



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RE: HQ Supply Distribution Matrix (PDF) - 2/1/2019 7:29:06 AM   
Kornstalx

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: balto

Kornstalx, thank you for tackling this because I am super lost. I was wondering if this is a correct interpretation of your wonderful chart.

(1) If I place an HQ on a supply hex that the supply hex map says is a 6, it will become a 10. Is that correct?

(2) And similarly, if I place an HQ on a hex that says 4, it will become an 8?

Thank you

1) Yes, if the HQ is full strenth
2) Yes, as above

quote:

ORIGINAL: balto

PS - could we have the "S" show both numbers (w/HQ and without HQ?) in two different colors?

I agree, we need this. An "S" toggle that ignores HQs and is native terrain only.

quote:

ORIGINAL: balto

Hey! As I continue to press the S button, I think I am seeing the HQ Supply hex value and the nonHQ Supply hex value! So if that is correct, everyone is happy here.., right?

No, this is the next turn prediction. The first pressing of "S" shows the current supply on the map, and the next pressing shows the predicted supply on the map for the next turn. The differences you are seeing between presses are because a town healed, an HQ moved, front line/ZoC adjusted, a port healed, etc. First press = current, second press = next turn, third press = off.


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RE: HQ Supply Distribution Matrix (PDF) - 2/1/2019 8:07:03 AM   
Kornstalx

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: balto

Using the table above (which is very helpful), I think the table and manual are in error for minimum supply provided by HQ. I also think the game is universally counting all supply sources as a 5, even if they are a 3 (port of Amoy).

Amoy itself has a supply value of 3, the adjacent port has a supply value of 5. Ports provide supply inland just like any other resource, as long as no enemy unit is adjacent to it. If you parked an enemy destroyer or moved a Chinese corps next to that port, the supply for the Amoy hex itself would drop to 3. This is why even small towns (such as in Norway) with a native supply of 3 are much more valuable to invade because of the port. Without a link to a Secondary Supply, it's the only way to get 5 native supply during an amphibious invasion. Other examples are most of the islands in the Pacific. The island towns are only 3 supply (again, because no links to a capital/secondary supply) but the ports themselves provide 5 as long as they are clear.

quote:

ORIGINAL: balto

If you follow me below, I also think the game engine is using 8 as the minimum supply value from an HQ. As a test, at the start of game I used the Japanese HQ in Haikuo and I moved the I Corps to the SE corner of Nanning.

I click S once and I get 8,6,0,0 (I believe this is nonHQ supply and I believe this should be 5,3,0,0 because Haikuo has 5 supply). I click S again, and I get 8,6,5,2.

(1) I click S once:
Starting at Haikuo and going three hexes North, the nonHQ Supply is 8 (Haikuo), the next is 6, the third (Pakhoi) is 0, and the fourth hex (I Corps SE of Nanning) is also 0. So 8,6,0,0. Haikuo is a supply of 5 and without the HQ I believe this should have stayed a five, and should have been 5(Haikuo),3,0,0(I Corps).

(2) I click S twice:
I click the HQ Supply (second click, see above) and it goes 8 (HQ hex, Haikuo),6,5,2. Per the table above, this is correct because Haikuo’s 5 becomes an 8. So the “second click on S” seems to work.

(3) I move the HQ one hex north and it becomes 7,8 (HQ hex),7,4(I Corps). Considering the correct nonHQ Supply should have been 5,3,0,0, this would have placed the HQ on a hex with 3 Supply which is also is an 8.., So again all is good.

(4) Now things appear to go wrong. I move the HQ one more hex north (adjacent to I Corp) and this is supply of 0, which becomes a 5 with the HQ. But the HQ supply says 5,6,8(HQ hex),5(I Corp, SE of Nanning). I believe it should be 5,4,5,2.

You're misunderstanding lots of things here. The initial 8,6,0,0 is because that's the *current* supply from the start of this turn. At the start of this turn the last two hexes (0,0) are not yours, and provide zero supply. When you moved the corps up to Nanning they are now yours, and *next* turn will start producing supply. This is why on the second press of "S" you see the predicted supply for the next turn, and it is correct -- 8,6,5,2.

I'll break down this 8,6,5,2 for you: The 8 is from the HQ itself as per the chart (it is standing in Haikou which is providing 5 supply. If you click on the HQ you can see it says "Supply: 5(8)" to demonstrate this. The 6 is because the next hex is bad terrain (a "river" in game terms). This causes a double-dip in supply between adjacent hexes. This is why it goes from 8 to 6. The next hex, a 5, is normal drop per hex of 1 point in clear terrain (this terrain is along a road, so even if it was not clear terrain, it would still be a 1 point drop). This 5 is coming from the HQ and not Pakhoi next turn. Pakhoi will be red-numbered supply (probably 3) because you just captured it, and the HQ will provide more so his is used in the prediction. If you disbanded that HQ, then followed the exact same steps, you'd see 3 supply for the Pakhoi hex next turn.

All of the problems you have in steps 2-4 go back to misunderstanding how it works in step 1.

quote:

ORIGINAL: balto

If we assume the game engine is correctly performing its supply calculations, then the table (and manual) is incorrect in that the GAME ENGINE IS COUNTING THE MINIMUM SUPPLY IMPACT OF AN HQ TO BE AN 8 AND INCORRECTLY COUNTING ALL SUPPLY SOURCES AS A 5 EVEN IF THEY ARE LOWER. Go thru my numbers above and that would be the solution to the multiple observations above.

PS – if I am wrong, I am going to feel like a complete idiot an I will not post for months due to extreme embarrassment.

The tables in the manual have a typo in one sentence. I mentioned this in a post above. Otherwise they are correct. The matrix I created above is correct. You are misunderstanding quite a few things, mainly the way the "S" predictions are determined, the way terrain is affecting these drops, and that ports provide their own supply inland as well.

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Post #: 26
RE: HQ Supply Distribution Matrix (PDF) - 2/1/2019 10:24:13 AM   
balto

 

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You sir, have a massive and powerful brain. Thank you.

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RE: HQ Supply Distribution Matrix (PDF) - 2/1/2019 10:29:01 AM   
JagdFlanker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kornstalx

quote:

ORIGINAL: balto

PS - could we have the "S" show both numbers (w/HQ and without HQ?) in two different colors?

I agree, we need this. An "S" toggle that ignores HQs and is native terrain only.



this, this this! the 'S' key is not giving me the important info i need to decide where to best place my HQs. i have to use up my HQ movement points moving my HQs around to experiment and guess where they need to be to get optimal supply, when what i really need to know is what the underlying terrain supply is to KNOW where to put my HQs!

my suggestion is when you press 'S' you should get 2 numbers on each hex, say

5-8
or
5/8

the first number being the underlying terrain supply, and the 2nd number the supply provided by nearby HQs


in my eyes this would clear up my confusion about supply completely!

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