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Something missing in the game? - 1/9/2019 7:34:25 PM   
Leandros


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I recently came across a new article by Peter Boer - he's authoring on everything aviation regarding the defense of DEI in WW2.
A lot of civilian transport assets, used by the military, seem to be missing in the game. They could have been of use.

https://www.academia.edu/38118405/Article_Depot_Squadron_of_the_KNIL_Army_Aviation_Corps_version_9_January_2019.docx

Fred

< Message edited by Leandros -- 1/9/2019 7:38:48 PM >


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RE: Something missing in the game? - 1/9/2019 9:23:25 PM   
dr.hal


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Very interesting article, thanks for sharing it! There is a transport squadron of Dutch aircraft (L18 Lodestar transport aircraft) in the game already, is that not what this article is about? It's in the Dutch order of battle.

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RE: Something missing in the game? - 1/9/2019 10:14:18 PM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Very interesting article, thanks for sharing it! There is a transport squadron of Dutch aircraft (L18 Lodestar transport aircraft) in the game already, is that not what this article is about? It's in the Dutch order of battle.

No, he has another article on the Lodestar squadron. This is about the unit that organized the civilian transports into
military service. Eventually, it involved the Lodestar squadron, too. The Dutch also had a lot of civilian flying boats,
even some DC-3s. All were pressed into service. Much like the Beech 18s on Luzon.

Fred


< Message edited by Leandros -- 1/9/2019 10:49:02 PM >


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RE: Something missing in the game? - 1/9/2019 11:33:55 PM   
dr.hal


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Got it, thanks Fred. Hal

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RE: Something missing in the game? - 1/10/2019 2:58:48 AM   
Buckrock

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros
No, he has another article on the Lodestar squadron. This is about the unit that organized the civilian transports into
military service. Eventually, it involved the Lodestar squadron, too. The Dutch also had a lot of civilian flying boats,
even some DC-3s. All were pressed into service. Much like the Beech 18s on Luzon.

Perhaps it would help if you named the unit covered in the article that is needed in the game as when I looked at it, I too thought it was primarily an account of Depot Squadron D.VI.A, the same one as the Lodestar equipped D.VI.A squadron that starts at Madioen, Java in the game.

Edited because Roman numerals are unfairly tricky.

< Message edited by Buckrock -- 1/10/2019 3:54:22 AM >


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RE: Something missing in the game? - 1/10/2019 4:35:31 AM   
Alfred

 

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Timtom would have come to the conclusion that these terrestrial air transport operations all came effectively within the ambit of the game's D.VI.A unit.  As only 1 aircraft model can be flown by a unit, there was no room to incorporate the DC-3s.  Nor can one offs, such as the sole Flying Fortress which evacuated 23 people, be incorporated.  AE is built on abstractions.

Civilian units are not generally included in the game. There are no Pan Am operations nor QANTAS.

Alfred

< Message edited by Alfred -- 1/10/2019 4:38:18 AM >

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RE: Something missing in the game? - 1/10/2019 5:56:11 AM   
mogami


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Hi, But Bill had a yacht and if I modified a air tank I could make a torpedo and sink the Yamato. He is really smart, We bent our prop and he fixed it. If the Yamato ever comes near to Sarabaija we can sink her. Oh look Bills yacht
is not in game. How they gone to make Father Goose?


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RE: Something missing in the game? - 1/10/2019 9:33:26 AM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mogami

Hi, But Bill had a yacht and if I modified a air tank I could make a torpedo and sink the Yamato. He is really smart, We bent our prop and he fixed it. If the Yamato ever comes near to Sarabaija we can sink her. Oh look Bills yacht
is not in game. How they gone to make Father Goose?


You mean like Humphrey Bogart in "Africa Queen"...?..Well, he did it......

I expressed myself clumsily. I was under the impression that the Lodestar squadron was integrated into a "higher" unit also
incorporating available Dutch civilian transport airplanes, of which there was quite a few.

I understand the problem with only one a/c type in each squadron and is my understanding that the Beech 18s in the game
(5th PAAC squadron) were pressed into service after the war started, that they came from Pappy Gunn's Philippine airline.
I may be wrong.

Game-wise I suppose it is possible to establish quasi-military groups operating these transports (land and seaplanes) in the
editor. Mr. Boer implies that they did a good job, transporting much military personnel as well as critical supplies.

Fred

P.S.: And, since you mention it, there were some Goose there, too..

< Message edited by Leandros -- 1/10/2019 9:38:32 AM >


_____________________________

River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
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RE: Something missing in the game? - 1/10/2019 10:58:59 AM   
mogami


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Hi, I was just kidding. I know we are grognards and if you leave out the piper cub that Spartacus might have had then someone will mention it. I am guilty as well. We could complicate the game to where it could not be played (think SPI Campaign for North Africa) I see many very well documented suggestions. None of them would change the game other then to provide a interesting unit to the OOB. OK I will add the lear jet now show where it saves the SRA . I am the ultimate micro manager but I get distressed when you add hours to my turn without demonstrating how it changes anything. OK I admit all ships, aircraft, ground units need different supply. But I have a staff one of those guys is my supply officer and one is my liason. (Not all of this rant deals with the subject) Making the game more complicated does not make it better. No matter how many layers you add (hours to turn) Some players will still sort it out while the rest of us just say "My staff will sort it out" Actually and I am sure it will start a fire storm. I hate the entire concept of restricted HQ. True there are players that would exploit the lack of restriction. I say fooey on them. Restricted HQ are there to prevent players gaming the system and it punishes players who just want control over their units. If I am CIC of Dutch units why do I need to give control of my units to another HQ in order to move them? Because idiots will game the system.
When I play PBEM I do not want to play these people. Each scenario should have 3 headings. Play the AI, Play a butt weasel, and play the person who knows it is a game but still does not lose his mind. I really love some of the AAR up to where I see China wiped out in under 2 years. People People listen....If Japan could wipe out China before the end of 1943 then the rest of the war makes no sense. Then the game makes no sense. I don't want to castrate Japanese players (I am mainly a player of Japan) Well there you have it. Somewhere getting everything right we made everything silly. We have Japan landing on West Coast USA as a viable strategy and Japan kicking Chinas butt as a reality. I think we went too far some where. But lets worry about Spartacus
getting his Piper Cub

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RE: Something missing in the game? - 1/10/2019 11:40:32 AM   
witpqs


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Father Goose

< Message edited by witpqs -- 1/10/2019 11:41:03 AM >


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RE: Something missing in the game? - 1/10/2019 12:32:59 PM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Father Goose


Actually, he is in the game...on several islands, too...

Fred


_____________________________

River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B018F2QMEW?*Version*=1&*entries*=0

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RE: Something missing in the game? - 1/10/2019 12:44:40 PM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mogami

Hi, I was just kidding. I know we are grognards and if you leave out the piper cub that Spartacus might have had then someone will mention it. I am guilty as well. We could complicate the game to where it could not be played (think SPI Campaign for North Africa) I see many very well documented suggestions. None of them would change the game other then to provide a interesting unit to the OOB. OK I will add the lear jet now show where it saves the SRA . I am the ultimate micro manager but I get distressed when you add hours to my turn without demonstrating how it changes anything. OK I admit all ships, aircraft, ground units need different supply. But I have a staff one of those guys is my supply officer and one is my liason. (Not all of this rant deals with the subject) Making the game more complicated does not make it better. No matter how many layers you add (hours to turn) Some players will still sort it out while the rest of us just say "My staff will sort it out" Actually and I am sure it will start a fire storm. I hate the entire concept of restricted HQ. True there are players that would exploit the lack of restriction. I say fooey on them. Restricted HQ are there to prevent players gaming the system and it punishes players who just want control over their units. If I am CIC of Dutch units why do I need to give control of my units to another HQ in order to move them? Because idiots will game the system.
When I play PBEM I do not want to play these people. Each scenario should have 3 headings. Play the AI, Play a butt weasel, and play the person who knows it is a game but still does not lose his mind. I really love some of the AAR up to where I see China wiped out in under 2 years. People People listen....If Japan could wipe out China before the end of 1943 then the rest of the war makes no sense. Then the game makes no sense. I don't want to castrate Japanese players (I am mainly a player of Japan) Well there you have it. Somewhere getting everything right we made everything silly. We have Japan landing on West Coast USA as a viable strategy and Japan kicking Chinas butt as a reality. I think we went too far some where. But lets worry about Spartacus
getting his Piper Cub

I'd rather recommend the Fieseler Storch...

Fred


_____________________________

River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B018F2QMEW?*Version*=1&*entries*=0

(in reply to mogami)
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RE: Something missing in the game? - 1/10/2019 4:04:58 PM   
Disco Duck


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How about PY ( patrol Yachts)? This came up under a discussion of Actor Ernest Borgnine Navy service. It was a private yacht converted to ASW and training.

A separate article. Not about the ones EB sailed on.

https://www.sailfeed.com/2015/07/hooligan-navy-sailing-yachts-on-sub-patrol-during-wwii-2/

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RE: Something missing in the game? - 1/10/2019 5:14:31 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Disco Duck

How about PY ( patrol Yachts)? This came up under a discussion of Actor Ernest Borgnine Navy service. It was a private yacht converted to ASW and training.

A separate article. Not about the ones EB sailed on.

https://www.sailfeed.com/2015/07/hooligan-navy-sailing-yachts-on-sub-patrol-during-wwii-2/

Well they never included the paddlewheel Aircraft Carriers Wolverine and her sister (forgot the name), so skipping the yachts isn't such a big thing either. Perhaps they are abstracted into the chances of a sub being detected within four hexes of a base.

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RE: Something missing in the game? - 1/11/2019 4:09:52 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Disco Duck

How about PY ( patrol Yachts)? This came up under a discussion of Actor Ernest Borgnine Navy service. It was a private yacht converted to ASW and training.

A separate article. Not about the ones EB sailed on.

https://www.sailfeed.com/2015/07/hooligan-navy-sailing-yachts-on-sub-patrol-during-wwii-2/


How about this one ?




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 1/11/2019 4:10:54 PM >


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RE: Something missing in the game? - 1/11/2019 4:22:51 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


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Or more like this ?





Attachment (1)

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RE: Something missing in the game? - 1/12/2019 6:50:16 PM   
Leandros


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Here is another interesting article by Mr. Boer:

https://www.academia.edu/37582325/Direct_air_support_during_the_Battle_of_the_Java_Sea_10_2018_version?email_work_card=view-paper

It gives a good insight into the cooperation in the ABDA organisation. The exact subject also differs somewhat from how I (at
least) has perceived the air support, or lack of it, in the Battle of the Java Sea. Enjoy!

Fred

_____________________________

River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B018F2QMEW?*Version*=1&*entries*=0

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RE: Something missing in the game? - 1/13/2019 1:32:03 AM   
spence

 

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In accounts of the Battle of the Java Sea I had never read anything about the Allied ships being attacked from the air and my impression of the time was definitely that ait support of any type was never there. I kind of wondered about why, if the Allies were so deep in the hole, that they didn't get attacked by Japanese air while the ABDAFLOT was at sea (which seems to encompass both the Battle of the Java Sea and the Battle of Badoeng Strait. Even the remnants of the fleet managed to escape air attack after the battle except for the attacks by HIJMS Ryujo's attacks on USS Pope.

It would seem that the capture airbase one day and launch massive air attacks from it the next (as in the game) accelerates the pace of the game just a smidge.

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RE: Something missing in the game? - 1/13/2019 3:05:32 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

In accounts of the Battle of the Java Sea I had never read anything about the Allied ships being attacked from the air and my impression of the time was definitely that ait support of any type was never there. I kind of wondered about why, if the Allies were so deep in the hole, that they didn't get attacked by Japanese air while the ABDAFLOT was at sea (which seems to encompass both the Battle of the Java Sea and the Battle of Badoeng Strait. Even the remnants of the fleet managed to escape air attack after the battle except for the attacks by HIJMS Ryujo's attacks on USS Pope.

It would seem that the capture airbase one day and launch massive air attacks from it the next (as in the game) accelerates the pace of the game just a smidge.

CL Marblehead's crew would disagree about the absence of Japanese bombers. On Feb 4, 1942 Marblehead and other ships endured four air attacks, the last of which hit Marblehead twice and caused further damage with a near miss. The Allied squadron was forced to abandon their attack on an IJN invasion convoy.






Attachment (1)

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RE: Something missing in the game? - 1/13/2019 7:29:02 AM   
Buckrock

 

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Several of the surviving reports and accounts from Commonwealth and US warships of the Dutch-led Combined Striking Force mention being bombed through the cloud cover by a Japanese air formation as they sailed off Surabaya on the morning of the 27th and then again later in the afternoon just after the CSF had left the port to search for the reported Japanese invasion fleet. And as is mentioned in P.C. Boer's article, bad weather over the main Japanese airfields was the primary reason why Japanese land-based air did not play any role during the afternoon battle itself.

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