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1939 Naval Mod - 1/6/2019 5:01:45 PM   
Hairog


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This is a mod of the stock 1939 Storm over Europe Campaign.

HERE

From the suggestion of others and my own research I have tried to create a more historic feeling and acting naval game.

Major hypotheses
1. Ships were grouped in Task Forces which combined different classes that were combined to perform a specific task. Hence the name.
2. The majority of the names I have chosen for the Task Forces are names the US Navy used (the US Navy used a lot of names). There are a few exceptions and I ask for suggestions.
3. Rarely were single capital ships sent out, apart from the Germans, who sent out lone Raiders.
4. Without air support, it was very rare for capital ships to meet in the open ocean.
5. Airpower is deadly against ships.
6. Destroyers, Submarines, transports, and to a certain extent, light cruisers, were sunk by the hundreds while relatively few capital ships were sunk in the open ocean. The ones that were, were usually on suicide missions like the Yamato.
7. Aircraft carriers and Jeep carriers were rarely caught by surface ships and attacked.
8. Submarines were successful at damaging capital ships when they got the chance.
9. Task Forces were able to impede other naval vessels from bypassing their locations similar to the war gaming convention of Zones of Control. They caused other ships to slow down or even change course to avoid being attacked. Rarely did one Task Force pass through another unconstrained.
10. Task Forces usually consisted of 2 or more capital ships of the same class, ie.2 or more Battleships or Carriers were assigned to the same Task Force.

Universal changes

All Task Forces have a zone of control of +6.
All TF have defensive evasion ratings of 40% and above
Most TF with spotter planes have increased naval and land spotting zones of 3 or more hexes
Most capital ships have two strikes
The amount of capital ships has been reduced by half representing two ships of the same class in the same TF, ie. 2 BB in a Strike Task Force or 2 CV in a Fast Carrier Task Force.

Unit Changes

The Dreadnaught unit has been changed to represent the “Bombardment Task Force”. Strength of 9, +4 vs most land units, 40%, defensive evasion, increased land spotting range of 2, 2 strikes.

The BB unit has been changed to the “Strike Task Force”. Strength of 10, +2 vs Naval, + 1 Naval spotting, 45% Defensive evasion, 2 strikes.

The CC unit = “Covering Task Force”. Strength of 8, 2 land and naval spotting, 45% def evasion, 2 strikes.

The CA unit = “Raider Task Force”. Strength 7, raider multiplier increased to 10, National Moral loss +50, 2 hex naval spotting, 50 definsive evasion, 2 strikes.

The CL unit = “Recon Task Force”. Strength 6, 3 hex naval spotting, 50% def evasion, 2 strikes.

The DD unit = “Screening Task Force”. Strength of 6, +1 AA, +1 ASW, 60% def evasion.

The SS unit is now “Wolf Pack”. Strength of 8

The CVL = “Hunter Killer Task Force”. Strength of 8, +6 ASW, 2 intercept, 5 hex naval spotting, 60% def evasion.

The CV = “Fast Carrier Task Force”. Strength of 10, 2 intercepts, 2 escorts, + 8 naval spotting, 60% def evasion, 2 strikes.

The MT unit = “Off Shore Task Force” no change.

Maritime Bomber unit has 8 hex naval spotting, +6 ASW and 18 hex range, 2 strikes

Put the files in the Campaign folder that is usually found ...

C:\Users\"YOUR_COMPUTER"\Documents\My Games\Strategic Command WWII - War In Europe/Campaigns





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Hairog -- 1/6/2019 5:02:12 PM >


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RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 1/6/2019 8:38:18 PM   
Hairog


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From: Cornucopia, WI
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Oh and thank you Sipres for the great Hex shaped counters that makes the mod look presentable.




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RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 1/6/2019 9:36:01 PM   
nnason


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I like what you have done here but I think will make it very difficult to the Axis.

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RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 1/7/2019 1:23:24 AM   
seydlitz22513

 

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Finally, Naval specific combat and movement, and the implementation of task forces is a most welcome change that reflects how naval formations operated not only during world war 2 but throughout history since ships first sailed the seas. I like all the changes this is an excellent mod and should be the standard for the game are you paying attention game designers. No longer can naval warfare be an extension of the land campaign, it is completely different in every way.

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Post #: 4
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 1/7/2019 3:35:23 AM   
Hairog


Posts: 1150
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From: Cornucopia, WI
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quote:

ORIGINAL: nnason

I like what you have done here but I think will make it very difficult to the Axis.



How so nnason? I would like to hear your thoughts or concerns and make the changes deemed necessary.

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Post #: 5
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 1/7/2019 3:42:34 AM   
Hairog


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By the way, I've found that Hubert's excellent AI adapts quite well to all the changes I've made. Well done Hubert!

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Post #: 6
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 1/19/2019 5:29:07 PM   
Worg64

 

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I like how the changes look but difficult to see how it would actually work. I would need to playtest to see that.

I really dont like the current naval war in the game except the submarines and convoy part, that kind of works.
I also dont like that the submarines so easily can attack enemy ships in ports, it should be a high risk for submarines to be spotted and attacked if they try attack ships in port, but if unspotted they could make a good attack on ships in port.

Many years ago when doing tests for Hubert and Bill I proposed that the Naval war should be remade with fleet taskforces similar with your choise of name but instead as you have done with somehow keeping the current units but changed them.

I would like to see Fleet task forces as a unit being able to include air much as a carrier unit do now BUT also warships capital ships,destroyers and submarines much as the land unit wotk with AA, AT amd mobility included on the unit,
That is a Fleet task force is just that a task force consisisting on many different ships.
The speed and spooting would depend on the ships in the fleet task force. Combat would work more as the air units in the game works now. And much higher probaility towards aircombat and little chance of actual naval combat. Except when it is bad weather but then the spotting would be much less for the fleet task forces.
A much harder way to redo this into the game but it would really be more realistic and more flexibel.

I really like the land and air combat in the game except that I think artellery should be incorporated into the units as the AA currently are now. I dont like the Art sole units and tank units should have it cost two strikes attacking towns. They are otherwise to good attacking cities.

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Post #: 7
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 1/20/2019 2:17:34 AM   
Hairog


Posts: 1150
Joined: 7/11/2000
From: Cornucopia, WI
Status: offline

Preview This preview windows does not show attachments
RE: 1939 Naval Mod
Have you tried the Mod yet?

quote:

I really dont like the current naval war in the game except the submarines and convoy part, that kind of works.


Good, because that part stays the same.

[Quote] I also dont like that the submarines so easily can attack enemy ships in ports, it should be a high risk for submarines to be spotted and attacked if they try attack ships in port, but if unspotted they could make a good attack on ships in port.

Submarines have been toned down. In addition the zones of control prevent most hit and run tactics.

quote:

I would like to see Fleet task forces as a unit being able to include air much as a carrier unit do now BUT also warships capital ships,destroyers and submarines much as the land unit wotk with AA, AT amd mobility included on the unit,
That is a Fleet task force is just that a task force consisisting on many different ships.


That is the concept I used. The Task Forces are a grouping of different ships. The amount and kind determine the strengths and weaknesses of the TF. Example: the Fast Carrier TF is modeled to have two or more carriers, destroyers for ASW, a few CL for some rudimentary surface combat and a CA or two for the same purpose. This TF has a 8 hex spotting zone to simulate the use of the carriers AC for searching.

Example2: the Recon TF is modeled to be composed of a couple of CA with float planes and a bunch of DD for ASW. It has a search range of 5 but not a lot of surface combat capabilities.

Example 3: the Bombardment TF has big guns and float planes and can see 3 hexes inland and packs a good punch against soft targets and light tanks but still has a strike range of 1 hex.
All the TF were designed with certain strengths and weaknesses and I’ve tried to mimic the kinds of challenges the real navies faced.

quote:

The speed and spooting would depend on the ships in the fleet task force. Combat would work more as the air units in the game works now. And much higher probaility towards aircombat and little chance of actual naval combat. Except when it is bad weather but then the spotting would be much less for the fleet task forces.
A much harder way to redo this into the game but it would really be more realistic and more flexibel.


With zones of control and the high percent of naval defensive avoidance I’ve given the Carriers, jeep carriers etc. (up to 70%), I think that you will find that it mimics the true nature of WWII naval combat to a much larger degree than the stock game. In the trial games I’ve played against the AI I’ve not had much success in breaking thru Screening TF and then engaging Fast Carrier TF with my premier surface group, the Strike TF.

But don’t take my word on it, give it a try and then tell us what you think.


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Post #: 8
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 1/20/2019 1:33:43 PM   
TangSooDo

 

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I have just started this mod, and I like the concepts. I also like the rendition of land unit counters, but I notice that the US land units have their strength numbers off center to the left. Is there a reason for this?

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RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 1/20/2019 1:35:28 PM   
TangSooDo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TangSooDo

I have just started this mod, and I like the concepts. I also like the rendition of land unit counters, but I notice that the US land units have their strength numbers off center to the left. Is there a reason for this?


BTW this is on full zoom only.

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Post #: 10
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 1/20/2019 1:52:09 PM   
TangSooDo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TangSooDo


quote:

ORIGINAL: TangSooDo

I have just started this mod, and I like the concepts. I also like the rendition of land unit counters, but I notice that the US land units have their strength numbers off center to the left. Is there a reason for this?


BTW this is on full zoom only.

I think I've got it -- I am using the beta 1.16 version, and it doesn't work properly.

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Post #: 11
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 1/20/2019 6:29:45 PM   
Hairog


Posts: 1150
Joined: 7/11/2000
From: Cornucopia, WI
Status: offline
The graphics could be off center etc. I was concentrating on the mechanics and not the graphics at this point. I will tighten up the graphics soon.

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Post #: 12
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 1/20/2019 7:53:12 PM   
Worg64

 

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Sounds very intresting in most parts. I will give this naval mod a try when I get some decent time off from work.

One thing I wonder about is the allocation of ships into the various task forces. Can you change the type of taskforce by adding or withdrawing ships or by selecting a type of taskforce behavior much like the current air carries fighter/mix, naval?
If you can not that would be a real downside since I would assume depending on the situation you might want to use your ships different in both terms of type of task force but also in what type of combination of ships you use.

I would like to have a flexible way to change the type of taskforce you order the ships you have into.

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Post #: 13
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 1/21/2019 12:11:22 AM   
Hairog


Posts: 1150
Joined: 7/11/2000
From: Cornucopia, WI
Status: offline
quote:

One thing I wonder about is the allocation of ships into the various task forces. Can you change the type of taskforce by adding or withdrawing ships or by selecting a type of taskforce behavior much like the current air carries fighter/mix, naval?
If you can not that would be a real downside since I would assume depending on the situation you might want to use your ships different in both terms of type of task force but also in what type of combination of ships you use.


I've had to simulate the type of ships that make up the different task forces. There is no way to mix and match single ships so you have to do it using attack strength vs unit types, defense strength vs unit types, evasion percentages, number of stikes, range of strikes, spotting range etc.

Luckily Hubert and Bill have built in tons of options so I believe that you can do a good job of simulating the different Task Forces that the navy used.

In fact, I believe from my research, that you have at your disposal more choices of TF than any commander actually had during any time period of the war.

More examples: The Strike Task Force was an actual grouping that Nimitz etc. Had to choose from. The concept was built around a couple of battleships that could attack other surface ships with their big guns. This, as we know, did not happen very often. So in a game I designed the TF to have low evasion, but high hitting power against naval units if it could get within range.

Covering Task Force was designed to count-act the Strike Task Force and provide anti-air cover.

Raiders were meant to stop shipping, so in game they do a lot of damge to convoys if they can get in a convoy lane.

Hunter/Killer TF was another historical gouping of jeep carriers and ASW units specifically designed to hunt down submarines. In game terms they have enhanced spotting range and a high anti-submarine damage, but would fare poorly if they got caught by a strike force. But they also have a high defensive evasion rating to simulate their enhance ability to spot other ships and exit stage right.Thier spotting range is six hexes as well which should keep you out of trouble with proper use of screening forces.

From my play throughs, I've found that the +6 zones of control have cut down dramatically on the hit and run tactic that most of us are uncomfortable with and the screen forces actually work well and die quickl which is what happened. You can't just ignore the weaker screening forces and go for the carriers. You have to eliminate them first and their zones of control to engage the other ships with surface combat.

Planes are a different matter as the admirals found out. THey are devastating.

If setup properly I believe a combination of Screening TFs, Tactical Bombers and Maritime Bombers would stop any attempt at Operation Sea Lon, which would make the Battle of Britain nessicary.

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RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 1/22/2019 9:04:54 PM   
Worg64

 

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I really like your thinking and it seems to present a much better way to handle the naval war in the game.
The Taskforces values and reason of their making makes for a much more historical naval war. I like that.

The only thing I am missing in your mod would be the ability to swap type of taskforce.
Either due to tactical choice or due to strategic choice of war style.
I havent downloaded your mod yet and tried it out but I will when I have some more time but I assume it works as current buy of ships.You buy a specifik type of taskforce and are then stuck with it.
I would love to have the possiblity to change the type of the taskforce much like the current carriers can change from naval bombing to fighters.
Or if you could combine two taskforces to get a new Taskforce, but this would be much harder to implement in the game I assume.

The question of forcepool for respective country is also a matter of intrest and concern, as it stands Germany and Japan can not really compete in the naval race regardless of set industry and strategic goal.
I would very much like a option when specifik research goals vas obtained, you would to get a option where you can change your force pool somewhat. (ex more ships and less land units or air or subs)
That would really make for a intresting option where you could choose your countries long term strategy build.

Is that something that you would able to do in the mods?

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Post #: 15
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 1/24/2019 5:04:45 AM   
Hairog


Posts: 1150
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From: Cornucopia, WI
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There is an option that you can choose that lets you bypass the limits of what the scenario designer.

When you start a game on the options page you will see an "Advanced" button at the bottom of the window. Click on that and in the next window there will be another button that says "Soft Build Limits". If you chose this option you can by-pass the hard limits that the scenario comes with.

The addional units can cost more than the same ones that are under the limits depending upon the scenario design. The designer can put penalties for building units past the set limits. So you can buiild to your heats content...if you have the MMPs that is.

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RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 1/29/2019 11:17:24 AM   
mcaryf

 

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Hi Hairog
I have only recently come back to SC after a gap of 5 years. I am currently reminding myself about a substantial mod that I built for the old AOD game which had a lot of naval aspects some very similar to those that you have implemented. I will describe a couple of them to you as you might like the ideas.
I used the ability to reform/rebuild units cheaply to simulate two different situations. First BBs, many were actually sunk or disabled in ports e.g. Taranto, Pearl, Alexandria etc but were subsequently re-floated. I use the reform/rebuild facility to apply to BBs that had supply 8, when sunk, with a reduction to 30% of both cost and repair time.

I also allowed both DD flotillas and submarines to be rebuilt for a similar reduction of 30% in cost but with an instant rebuild. In this case my argument was different. Particularly in the case of subs the flotillas that were raiding in the Atlantic typically only had about 1/3 of their strength on station at any one point in time. Other members of the flotilla might be undergoing training, refits, rest or travelling to and from their raiding area in the Atlantic. Thus only 1/3 of the strength should be liable to be sunk. A further argument is that comparing the German build limit of 12 submarines with the historic totals of more than 360 being surrendered or scuttled at the war's end shows that each SC sub unit should represent at least 30 or more actual submarines so my 1/3 sunk represents 10 or more actual sub losses.

I realise that this impacts play balance but by allowing both subs and DDs to be rebuilt instantly it makes the naval components of both sides more durable.

Regards

Mike

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Post #: 17
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 1/30/2019 12:13:27 PM   
seydlitz22513

 

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Hi Hairog, I really like your naval mod, but there is one major change that I have made and that is for the Raider Task Force: As it was only really the German Kriegsmarine that operated Raiders, I give these task forces the standard 10 strength, with a high evasion of at least 60 all German surface raiders had standing orders to avoid combat with heavy enemy units.

Another small change from your task forces is where you have MTB as Off Shore Task Force, I have renamed this as Coastal Task Force.

< Message edited by seydlitz22513 -- 1/30/2019 12:24:24 PM >

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Post #: 18
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 1/30/2019 12:20:45 PM   
seydlitz22513

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 4/26/2018
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mcaryf

Hi Hairog
I have only recently come back to SC after a gap of 5 years. I am currently reminding myself about a substantial mod that I built for the old AOD game which had a lot of naval aspects some very similar to those that you have implemented. I will describe a couple of them to you as you might like the ideas.
I used the ability to reform/rebuild units cheaply to simulate two different situations. First BBs, many were actually sunk or disabled in ports e.g. Taranto, Pearl, Alexandria etc but were subsequently re-floated. I use the reform/rebuild facility to apply to BBs that had supply 8, when sunk, with a reduction to 30% of both cost and repair time.

I also allowed both DD flotillas and submarines to be rebuilt for a similar reduction of 30% in cost but with an instant rebuild. In this case, my argument was different. Particularly in the case of subs the flotillas that were raiding in the Atlantic typically only had about 1/3 of their strength on station at any one point in time. Other members of the flotilla might be undergoing training, refits, rest or traveling to and from their raiding area in the Atlantic. Thus only 1/3 of the strength should be liable to be sunk. A further argument is that comparing the German build limit of 12 submarines with the historic totals of more than 360 being surrendered or scuttled at the war's end shows that each SC sub unit should represent at least 30 or more actual submarines so my 1/3 sunk represents 10 or more actual sub losses.

I realize that these impacts play balance but by allowing both subs and DDs to be rebuilt instantly it makes the naval components of both sides more durable.

Regards

Mike



I like the idea of reforming Battleships etc sunk in port, as you said a lot of these were indeed refloated and repaired.

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Post #: 19
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 1/30/2019 4:27:19 PM   
seydlitz22513

 

Posts: 52
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hairog

Oh and thank you Sipres for the great Hex shaped counters that makes the mod look presentable.





I have to say I like Sipres Hex shape naval graphics, so I thought I would try and see if I could tweak them a little, below is my version of German Strike Task Force graphic mod with Battleship Bismarck silhouette against a darker blue background.






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 20
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 1/31/2019 5:11:32 AM   
Hairog


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Joined: 7/11/2000
From: Cornucopia, WI
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Very nice seydlitz22513! I like it. I just did a fast color change of Sipres work and some of the pixels didn't take too well. Yours is much cleaner...Said Tom Sawyer to the passing boys as he was white washing the fence.

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Post #: 21
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 1/31/2019 9:06:45 AM   
seydlitz22513

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hairog

Very nice seydlitz22513! I like it. I just did a fast color change of Sipres work and some of the pixels didn't take too well. Yours is much cleaner...Said Tom Sawyer to the passing boys as he was white washing the fence.


Thank you, kind sir!

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