IJN Std cargo conversions

[jdsrae]

I’m away from the game for a few days but doing some Log Plans.
Can someone please advise what conversions are possible for the IJN Std xAK classes?
I know he conversions for all other classes just not these ones, and some very useful old posts on the topic don’t seem to mention them except for Std-C can convert to TK.
Any details appreciated

[Korvar]

Attached is a .csv file in .zip format with stats on all IJN xAK types.

The short answer is that the standard types (A through D) can convert to either AKE or TK. I pulled data from the Dec 8 Quiet China scenario, but it *should* be the same in the standard scenarios.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Korvar

Attached is a .csv file in .zip format with stats on all IJN xAK types.

The short answer is that the standard types (A through D) can convert to either AKE or TK. I pulled data from the Dec 8 Quiet China scenario, but it *should* be the same in the standard scenarios.

There are also those that can convert to AD, AG, AV, AS and the rare AR. The latter three are very long conversions.
Lots of xAKs and xAKLs convert to PBs and other minor auxiliaries. You could put your whole merchant fleet in the yards if you did them all!

[jdsrae]

Cheers, I will dive into the attachment this evening.
Controversial as it may be, I’ve got a plan for the best class(es) to use for various things and how many of AV AD AR AS AKE etc that differs a bit from the previously published works of Mike Solli et al.
The last piece of the puzzle is to check what the Std A to F can do for me.
I was hoping the Std d, e and f might give me some small craft options to help keep allied subs heads down to be honest...
Has anyone ever said that there aren’t enough To’su class ships before?

[Mike Solli]

Funny you mention those conversions. I'm in the process of updating that list based on my current experiences in that PBEM (still ongoing). I'm preparing another turn 1 and currently in the middle of figuring out what to do with all those different xAKs. It's somewhat different than before. I (probably) won't bother with the Std- D, E & Fs though. Need to do a little more analysis first. I suspect they're not worth the cost in fuel to move the little fuel they move.

Remember, I did that in 2011. It's been a few years and my experiences have changed what I am doing now. I'm curious what you've come up with. Would you mind posting it here? It's always an interesting topic of conversation.

Thanks,

Mike

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
Funny you mention those conversions. I'm in the process of updating that list based on my current experiences in that PBEM (still ongoing). I'm preparing another turn 1 and currently in the middle of figuring out what to do with all those different xAKs. It's somewhat different than before. I (probably) won't bother with the Std- D, E & Fs though. Need to do a little more analysis first. I suspect they're not worth the cost in fuel to move the little fuel they move.

Give a thought to not building any new xAKs at all, except maybe Std-As as additional fast tankers. No reason to produce additional VPs for the Allies with the abundance of merchant ships Japan has at start

[Trugrit]

I don't know if you use Tracker.

It has a good conversion feature. You can sort for type or class.

[rustysi]

I'm not the right guy to ask these type of questions here because I just won't cross certain lines in the game. What I mean by that is that I produce them all. Why? Well I ask myself, would/could Japan as an island nation stop construction of its merchies? Simple answer is no.

That being said I would at least consider building some of the other small xAK's that convert to TK's simple because they could be useful in getting small amounts of fuel to your forward bases. This for fueling any ACM's you may have tending your minefields and/or any forward sub bases. For that matter just a small amount of emergency fuel supplies at a forward base. Of course JMHO. YMMV.

[jdsrae]

Trying to type on my phone so will try to keep it short.
I came to this question via a circuitous route. I have been organising the IJN order of battle on loosely historical lines but am now looking to improve some deficiencies. Im trying to focus all missions on how they support the strategic objective of getting “stuff” back to Japan keep the war machine fed. Nothing new in this, but when I then got into the details like “which class of AKE?” it helps to first ask do I even need any more, and if so, what mission would I use it for?

1. Capture oil/fuel/resources locations. Protect thise locations from recapture, strategic bombing (for as long as possible).
Therefore, need fighters with sufficient are base support to delay 4e bomber impact
2. Setup convoys to get stuff home. Protect convoys from: air/surface combat threats, air dropped mines, submarines
Therefore, high priority on ASW capability. Let’s assume an ahistorical Axis ASW conference was held in late 1941...

It’s the ASW capability that I’m working on at the moment, hence why I was hoping for more small craft options from the Std d,e,f. This capability needs:
1. ASW surface task forces, either from a large enough port or an AG as tender
2. ASW air groups either operating from IJNAF base forces or AV as tender
My options for optimising the ASW surface TFs are limited by hulls that can convert, but there are many small FP air groups that are under utilised if left in their historical role/mission. If I optimise the FP airgroups into a coordinated ASW Force (divisions each with AG, SC/PB, AV, FP) I could use all 50ish available Kyushu and Husimi AV conversions. The smallest AG that can’t also be a PB is the Daigen. I still have to crunch numbers and adding units to ASW Divs with locations along the main convoy routes, but I think I’ll need the Kiso in PB roles

Mike I just read your latest AAR post about your ASW task forces not hitting anything, so this could all be in vain!

Cheers all for the input
Jim

[xj900uk]

IN RL the Japanese converted a lot of their merchant ships. Heck they even designed a lot of their military ships to b e converted, sometimes more than once!

Howe ver one of their biggest mistakes was not to assign and convert more of their small merchant tramp steamers to some ASW capability. They seemed blissfully unaware until 1944 that the USN subs were taking such a toll of their merchant shipping, especially tankers, and never adopted the convoy system or assigned any ASW escorts to any big cargo/suplly flotillas (they did when fighting ttroops were involved, but not f or 'civilian' shipping)
My advice is that a lot of the starting IJN merchant ships can be converted to slow and weak PB's which are not a s good as military ASW's (eg SC's and small DD's) but are better than nothing.
The two main classes uitable for conversion to PB's are the small 4000 endurance 11 speed ones, and the slightly bigger 6000 enduarance 14 speed (but you will need a repair dockyard to convert the latter)

Towards the end of 1944, a maverick eccentric Admiral called INoue (I think that@s his hname) was recalled to the Naval Staff to try and salvage something from the wreckage of their merchant shipping & supply fleet.
He came up with the idea of small mobile ASW hunter-killer squads of about half a dozen boats, backed up by a small CVE if avialalbe with lots of slow outdated biplanes or early monoplanes (the Mabel was used for this role) fitted with depth-charges of anti-sub bobmlets
Funnily enough the IJN was the only force any where int he world who developed a purpose-designed ASW aircraft but only built a coupel of hundred and never gave it a decent priority

There is a n excellent book on Japanese ASW operations and aircraft during WWII, if you are interested I thoroughly recommend it as the IJN had the tools and know-how to develop a proper ASW force as far back as 1941 but never thought it necessary until it w as too late :

https://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Anti-Su ... 8365281392

[jdsrae]

I was trying to finish my convoy plan before going back to work but failed...
I found an old post I think by JWE where he said playing as Japan we essentially have two options, convert your fast/modern freighters for IJN use and let your merchant fleet plod along OR use your fast ships for hauling and accept the reduced IJN capabilities. I’ve seen a lot of people go for option 2, so I’ve gone for option 1.
I finally finished the first cut last night so will review and put a summary up here later for discussion.
There are just enough TK and AO for oil/fuel routes and I’ve got a plan to use nearly all starting xAK either by conversion or assignment to resource convoy routes.
My convoy plan moves all oil/resources and about half the fuel produced in the SRA to Japan for industry. The rest of the fuel stays in the SRA to be used for naval ops.
There is a need to build more TK early as I only have a few spare small ones. The quickest way is to convert Std ABC xAK to TK, as they arrive in 1942/43 before their TK cousins which don’t arrive until 44+. The only other need for building new merchant ships will be to replace losses, so that needs a guesstimate. A few more small xAK to TK for local ASW refuelling are also on the cards, but only a handful per Area Fleet.
Cheers
Jim

[Mike Solli]

I like option 2 better, using the 15 and 18 kt xAKs along with the Tonan Whalers and 18/19 kt tankers to haul all the good stuff to Japan from my hubs. The smaller TKs and various 10-12 kt xAK(L)s haul the stuff to the hubs. This leaves many of the 14 kt xAKs (love these guys converted to haul more troops), along with fast AKs and xAPs to haul troops and equipment, and 12/14 kt xAK(L)s to haul supply out. Some routes allow supply to be hauled out on the return leg of the runs from the hubs. That's relatively rare though. The SRA produces abundant supply for their needs and Burma as well. Most of the supply shipped out of Japan ends up going to the Pacific, Solomons and China.

Don't forget to get a fleet loaded with 150k supply early on to repair the 150 oil fields at Miri that begins the game damaged. (32 Adens work well.) That should be sufficient, even if some of it gets damaged in the liberation. The supply produced there will be sufficient to repair any additional damaged oil fields and the Brunei oil fields that begins the game damaged.

Don't forget you'll have to move fuel to the Pacific from the SRA as there will most likely be significant fleet OPs out there. I had allocated 8 of the 7950 capacity TKs to do that, and that was usually enough for my ops.

The AOs were used to haul fuel/oil rarely. I like to keep them available for fleet ops. They often sat in port somewhere fully loaded. I would keep 2 replenishment fleets, a slow and fast one.

You're right, there aren't enough TK hulls to go around. I pull out the 17 Std-C xAKs as soon as possible for the conversion beginning in June 42 (I believe that when it's available). I also accelerate some TK hulls too. I find that the smaller hulls are needed more than the large ones (there are enough to start) early on and have to use cargos to haul fuel for a time in 1942 in the Medan area to haul fuel (maybe Palembang too, I can't remember without checking my notes).

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
I like option 2 better, using the 15 and 18 kt xAKs along with the Tonan Whalers and 18/19 kt tankers to haul all the good stuff to Japan from my hubs. The smaller TKs and various 10-12 kt xAK(L)s haul the stuff to the hubs. This leaves many of the 14 kt xAKs (love these guys converted to haul more troops), along with fast AKs and xAPs to haul troops and equipment, and 12/14 kt xAK(L)s to haul supply out.

All 15 and 18 kt can eventually convert to AKs with corresponding load/unload ratings. And Limas stay Limas. Why not do it the other way around? I really do not see a benefit of 18kt resource convoy

[jdsrae]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista
Why not do it the other way around? I really do not see a benefit of 18kt resource convoy

My thoughts too. There’s an abundance of resources so I don’t see a need to increase the import rate even more by using faster ships. I’m going to let the 10-12kt xAK do the resource hauling. (I’ve taken to using their cruise speeds as that’s what they plod along at). That has freed up all ships that can convert to AK, AR, AS, AV to consider in those roles.

All types of Yusen will be assigned to SNLF and convert to AK after the amhipb bonus runs out.
xAP can move troops/supplies from Japan to Area Fleet HQ locations, SNLF AKs can do that too and/or move them further forward in assault mode.
And when the time comes to move a few things in the other direction they can do it a little bit quicker.

I’ll convert a few more large AKE, AR and AS and lots of AV to support larger and more land based FP groups for ASW over the convoy routes.
I don’t see value in AKV, too risky moving an air group via sea once allied torpedoes start detonating.
As soon as more TK are available the AO will return to supporting Combined Fleet ops.

[rustysi]

The SRA produces abundant supply for their needs and Burma as well.

In my experience I find Burma to be deficient in supply, but then again I run heavy offensive ops there for quite some time. My reasoning is simple. Fight the Indians/Brits while they're weak, rather than sit around waiting for them strengthen and train. Of course this depends on the available supply in the empire, and at some point you'll reach the 'law of diminishing returns'.

[rustysi]

As for which vessels to use for which purposes, I find I have enough of the fast guys to perform most functions. Some are converted to auxiliaries. Some haul stuff to/from the HI. Some are converted to 'troopships'. The slow guys (mostly Adens') plod certain short routes, and take up the little slack that's left by the faster ships.

As for TK's, I used to accelerate some, but no more. I find that enough are available to keep pace, and as time goes on things will all get caught up. I do convert many of the early xAK's to TK's. Also I don't haul fuel in vessels that have no liquid capacity, but that's just me. Figure early '43 and you'll catch up with moving fuel. Generally speaking I'll use Japan's slow AO's to move fuel between the SRA and the SE/4th fleet areas.

[rustysi]

Don't forget to get a fleet loaded with 150k supply early on to repair the 150 oil fields at Miri that begins the game damaged.

Never seem to have enough supply to do this all at once. I do it in dribs and drabs, and always try to maintain enough to keep the repair going. Though often unsuccessful. Not good.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
I like option 2 better, using the 15 and 18 kt xAKs along with the Tonan Whalers and 18/19 kt tankers to haul all the good stuff to Japan from my hubs. The smaller TKs and various 10-12 kt xAK(L)s haul the stuff to the hubs. This leaves many of the 14 kt xAKs (love these guys converted to haul more troops), along with fast AKs and xAPs to haul troops and equipment, and 12/14 kt xAK(L)s to haul supply out.

All 15 and 18 kt can eventually convert to AKs with corresponding load/unload ratings. And Limas stay Limas. Why not do it the other way around? I really do not see a benefit of 18kt resource convoy

I should have specified. All 15 & 18 kt xAKs that have a 300 fuel capacity. I prefer this because I like fewer, large convoys rather than more, different speed convoys. Just my preference. Japan uses a LOT of resources. I want to have a lot on the islands because at some point, pretty much all Japanese shipping will either be sunk or hiding in port, and not moving resources. I don't want to run out of resources. The small Japanese islands need to haul a most of their resources to the main island. That's potentially a lot of supply lost. Again, just my preference.