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Soviet Unready Units - 12/4/2018 3:33:49 PM   
nukkxx


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Hi there, any advice about what I should do with my unready units ? Shopuld I set them to refit or just wait ? Or move them toward a HQ ? or ... ?

Thanks
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RE: Soviet Unready Units - 12/4/2018 4:26:28 PM   
thedoctorking


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Depends on what your manpower situation is. If your army is very short of manpower (you can look at the logistic phase report and see), then set some divisions to 20 Max TOE and put them back in the rear somewhere. If you are closer to full, you can set your weaker divisions (low TOE/exp/morale) on like 75 or 80 Max TOE and send them rearward at least 10 hexes to recover. If you desperately need units in the front, you can use the merge command to put two beat-up divisions (or a division and a brigade) together, but be sure to do this after you have expended all AP for the turn because otherwise the system will charge you the AP cost of the unit you are merging into - it is treated as destroyed and will return in a certain number of turns, so the game charges you its AP cost unless there are no APs to pay. Sneaky but legit, everyone seems to agree.

(in reply to nukkxx)
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RE: Soviet Unready Units - 12/4/2018 6:30:34 PM   
nukkxx


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Thanks for this. My manpower is still very good. In fact my unready troops are on the front line but as the weather is muddy and as I'm suspecting that the Germans are starting to be a bit out of steam after the brutal tsunami I took in the face (date is 23th OCT 1941) I'm not expecting the Germans to attack for a couple of turns so I decided not to move my units backward. Will set my MAX TOE to 80%, will it help ?

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RE: Soviet Unready Units - 12/4/2018 10:46:34 PM   
thedoctorking


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I generally keep most of my units at 80% and set only the guards or nearly guards guys at 100%, along with (later) corps-sized units. Moving units to the rear (at least 10 hexes from the nearest enemy) and setting them on refit will mean that they will increase morale and exp more rapidly. Also, if they are on or near rail lines, they will preferentially get replacements and fill up to their TOE max. Generally during mud, I move my better units - the 100% guys - back ten hexes and let them fill up for the blizzard turns. The Germans will have a couple turns of snow where they could launch offensives but they could also get screwed if they get too aggressive. Especially if you have a strategic reserve ready to throw in.

Are you playing the AI or a live opponent?

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RE: Soviet Unready Units - 12/4/2018 11:06:38 PM   
Crackaces


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I might add that +1 attack vs no +1 makes a difference for German response N=3 for me. No +1 Soviet Manpower at 5.5M and I attacked the Soviets in a Blizzard. See 8MP AAR. +1 and Soviet <4.5M Manpower and I am sacrificing tanks to prevent a catastrophic disaster in 2x3. I have a huge armor committment but .. I don’t think you guys have the reserve :)

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RE: Soviet Unready Units - 12/5/2018 1:56:24 AM   
thedoctorking


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With 4.5m deployed, there isn't a lot to spare in the Red Army, that's for sure. The lower manpower production really makes it hard to bounce back from a bad Barbarossa.

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RE: Soviet Unready Units - 12/5/2018 6:35:17 AM   
56ajax


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

I generally keep most of my units at 80% and set only the guards or nearly guards guys at 100%, along with (later) corps-sized units. Moving units to the rear (at least 10 hexes from the nearest enemy) and setting them on refit will mean that they will increase morale and exp more rapidly. Also, if they are on or near rail lines, they will preferentially get replacements and fill up to their TOE max. Generally during mud, I move my better units - the 100% guys - back ten hexes and let them fill up for the blizzard turns. The Germans will have a couple turns of snow where they could launch offensives but they could also get screwed if they get too aggressive. Especially if you have a strategic reserve ready to throw in.

Are you playing the AI or a live opponent?

Refit can increase morale quicker but makes no difference to experience gain. Experience increase by 3 points up to when experience is half national morale then it is 1 point a turn...like watching paint dry...

_____________________________

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Post #: 7
RE: Soviet Unready Units - 12/5/2018 8:16:02 AM   
nukkxx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

I generally keep most of my units at 80% and set only the guards or nearly guards guys at 100%, along with (later) corps-sized units. Moving units to the rear (at least 10 hexes from the nearest enemy) and setting them on refit will mean that they will increase morale and exp more rapidly. Also, if they are on or near rail lines, they will preferentially get replacements and fill up to their TOE max. Generally during mud, I move my better units - the 100% guys - back ten hexes and let them fill up for the blizzard turns. The Germans will have a couple turns of snow where they could launch offensives but they could also get screwed if they get too aggressive. Especially if you have a strategic reserve ready to throw in.

Are you playing the AI or a live opponent?

Thanks again for advices.
I'm playing pbem and I've been totally crushed. Lenningrad fell, and even Moscow !!! My HQ is now near Ivanovo/Yaroslav. We are in October (10/23/41). Southern front is not much better. I'm still holding Rostov and Stalingrad. Crimea is German :-(. I have a strong point in Tamanskaya and it's holding so far.

But now that the mud and soon the blizzard/winter is coming, together with fresh reinforcement, I think a counter attack might become possible. But I definitely need stronger troops. Well, the whole situation is bad, very bad :-)




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by nukkxx -- 12/5/2018 8:20:58 AM >

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RE: Soviet Unready Units - 12/5/2018 3:58:10 PM   
AlexSF


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Prepare Cav Corps with attached Support units, create strong shock armies with them and unleash the fury against Rumanians in the South when blizzard comes. It will make you feel better :)

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RE: Soviet Unready Units - 12/5/2018 5:19:41 PM   
thedoctorking


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And obviously look for opportunities to pocket the Germans when you can. Avoid taking advantage of the +1 where possible because your losses will still be astronomical even if you take the hex. Cav corps are fragile, they can be used to attack but should probably only do it in hasty attacks against weak units. Especially avoid having them attack high fortification values.

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RE: Soviet Unready Units - 12/5/2018 11:17:57 PM   
Crackaces


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We had the 2x3 Soviets pinned back to Yaro .. they have bounced back in the blizzard .. they pocketed Germans ..I suspect you are in a better position so don’t give up

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RE: Soviet Unready Units - 12/6/2018 12:31:48 AM   
thedoctorking


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I don't know how these games play out in the long run, but losing 4 million guys and Moscow and Leningrad doesn't mean the game is over.

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RE: Soviet Unready Units - 12/6/2018 7:12:59 AM   
nukkxx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

I don't know how these games play out in the long run, but losing 4 million guys and Moscow and Leningrad doesn't mean the game is over.


Let's hope !! But when I compare germans and Soviet CVs ... no idea how I can fight back.

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RE: Soviet Unready Units - 12/6/2018 10:51:55 AM   
GamesaurusRex


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nukkxx


quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

I don't know how these games play out in the long run, but losing 4 million guys and Moscow and Leningrad doesn't mean the game is over.


Let's hope !! But when I compare germans and Soviet CVs ... no idea how I can fight back.


LOL ! Welcome to the Russian side of the PVP game.

For 1941 through to December (for PVP only)...

IF you are using default initial game settings and...
IF the German player is skilled in the Panzer Ball Tactic and knows how to advance his rail...,
don't expect to hold Leningrad, Moskow, or Rostov. Against an experienced German opponent, any attempt by the Russian to defend anything in 1941 is just serving up your troops to the German on a plate to be eaten in a pocket.

The Russian objective in 1941 is twofold...
1) Evacuate the factories, defending only where necessary to delay the German long enough to accomplish this and...
2) Avoid getting pocketed at all costs to minimize losses, focusing attention on conserving units with high morale.

As 1942 approaches... (and ASSUMING you have chosen the 1-1=2-1 winter offensive initial game setting.)
You must begin to plan your counter offensive. Pay close attention to Section 7.5.3.1 of the manual because it spells out the timing of your ability to transform the Russian Army "1.0" into "2.0", starting with the Cavalry Corps which will be the primary unit for your 41-42 winter counter offensive. It is important that you fully flesh out your Cavalry with proper support unit attachments or you will not have the necessary CV to drive the German back successfully.

Your 41-42 winter counter offensive should aim at attacking the German where he is weakest in order to achieve the most victories possible. This is what old hands here term "morale farming".
Pocketing German units will likely be beyond your movement capacity, but each victory gives the possibility of a morale increase which will raise the CV of your units as you move forward and regain lost territory. Don't expect to be able to damage the German Panzers because a savy German player will have evacuated them to safe european locations to minimize winter attrition. Just focus on farming "victories" to gain ground and morale.
This will leave you in position to possibly survive 1942. (Possibly, LOL...)

As 1942 progresses into summer, assuming you have avoided pockets and farmed morale, you will begin to shift from a defensive posture to an offensive posture as this becomes possible through your construction of Russian army "2.0". How you do this is a massive discussion in itself and subject to a multitude of opinions. Whatever structure you choose, the ultimate goal is to push the Hun back to Berlin and bury him there.
Good Luck... IF you are using the default initial game settings, you are going to need it. .

(My personal opinion on initial game settings is that the German morale and AP need to be reduced and the Russian morale and AP needs to be increased. How much is a matter of experimentation between two particular players because it depends greatly on the relative game experience level of each. Arriving at a competitive game balance is a tricky thing to achieve, especially for newcomers who have no reference of potential problems. If set improperly, then either the German steamrolls the Russian too easily by 1942 or the Russian steamrolls the German too easily in the endgame of 44-45. What one would ideally like to see is a setting that results in a balanced playing field and recreates the epic historic struggle that the War In The East was.

Just my opinion... Cheers.




< Message edited by GamesaurusRex -- 12/7/2018 2:35:34 PM >

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Post #: 14
RE: Soviet Unready Units - 12/6/2018 8:37:51 PM   
thedoctorking


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If you push hard enough in blizzard, especially with the +1 attack advantage, you may either be able to pocket German infantry or force the Germans to commit panzer units to prevent it. Then, the panzers suffer heightened attrition just by being out of their winter quarters in cities and/or get shot up as you attack them with better CV units. This is especially true if you can force panzer units to retreat through your ZoC's or (best case) be surrounded entirely and force them to rout out through your units. With good management, you can end up with the historical outcome, which is a panzer force composed of divisions with a few dozen tanks each.

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RE: Soviet Unready Units - 12/6/2018 10:42:39 PM   
GamesaurusRex


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The person I have played against for the past 5 years is very skilled at the German side. He has yet to fail to capture Leningrad, Moskow, and Rostov by the end of 1941. Although I can often temporarily retake Moskow by early spring of 42, He usually retakes it by late spring of 42. As for his panzers I have yet to ever see his panzers in the winter of 41-42. They show up in the spring of 42... and I have learned to keep out of their reach, unless I have overwhelming forces with which to attack, which is rare until well into late 42.

We learned from the likes of Pelton and FlaviusX and, after 5 years of practice, in our games it has become a chore for Russians to survive 42. Aggressive Panzer Ball methods have made it so. After that, it is an uphill hex by hex slog to see if the Russian can get to Berlin before the time runs out.

Our latest games have experimented with adjusting morale and AP settings. We have yet to reach what I would call balance.

< Message edited by GamesaurusRex -- 12/6/2018 11:01:31 PM >

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Post #: 16
RE: Soviet Unready Units - 12/7/2018 12:39:30 AM   
thedoctorking


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I have played now six games against live opponents, so I don't have the experience that Gamesaurus does. My sense, at least at the beginning to intermediate play level, is that the Germans can count on capturing one of those three objectives if they concentrate on it. If they go for two, they might have success but they can also be stopped. Three has never been possible, either for me playing the Axis or for my various opponents.

Your game option choice is important too. The historical option is the +1 Soviet attack advantage and full blizzard. Few people play with those options, though. If you leave off one or both of those options, though, you are really giving the Germans a big edge. One measure of this is the advantage in Guards creation that you get: from needing 6 victories for an infantry unit to have a chance of guard converting in 1941 with the historical option, it goes to 4 with mild blizzard and 3 with both mild blizzard and no +1 attack.

< Message edited by thedoctorking -- 12/7/2018 1:16:51 AM >

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RE: Soviet Unready Units - 12/7/2018 8:54:01 AM   
nukkxx


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I don't have any soviet combat bonus ...

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RE: Soviet Unready Units - 12/7/2018 2:45:44 PM   
GamesaurusRex


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In my opinion, you need to use the 1-1=2-1 option at the very least. Otherwise the Russian cannot achieve the necessary victories he needs to raise morale and guards units. Without this, his chance of surviving 42 is minimal. Even with it, if the Russian does not aggressively counter attack in the 41-42 winter, he will be doomed to collapse due to the lack of morale and guards. This problem with the mechanics of the game is what Pelton termed the "snowball effect" because failing to get victories leads to a downhill spiral of the Russian morale ratio to the German morale (which equals CV imbalance between Russians/Germans).

< Message edited by GamesaurusRex -- 12/7/2018 2:48:54 PM >

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RE: Soviet Unready Units - 12/7/2018 11:18:10 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

In my opinion, you need to use the 1-1=2-1 option at the very least. Otherwise the Russian cannot achieve the necessary victories he needs to raise morale and guards units. Without this, his chance of surviving 42 is minimal. Even with it, if the Russian does not aggressively counter attack in the 41-42 winter, he will be doomed to collapse due to the lack of morale and guards. This problem with the mechanics of the game is what Pelton termed the "snowball effect" because failing to get victories leads to a downhill spiral of the Russian morale ratio to the German morale (which equals CV imbalance between Russians/Germans).


It is funny that Pelton always asked for and received in his games "Mild Blizzard" and "No +1" as a German player. Of course, you are going to have a snowball effect with that scenario.

_____________________________


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RE: Soviet Unready Units - 12/7/2018 11:22:56 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

If you push hard enough in blizzard, especially with the +1 attack advantage, you may either be able to pocket German infantry or force the Germans to commit panzer units to prevent it. Then, the panzers suffer heightened attrition just by being out of their winter quarters in cities and/or get shot up as you attack them with better CV units. This is especially true if you can force panzer units to retreat through your ZoC's or (best case) be surrounded entirely and force them to rout out through your units. With good management, you can end up with the historical outcome, which is a panzer force composed of divisions with a few dozen tanks each.


You are correct on having the Germans commit the Panzer's to defend during the Blizzard. Once that happens use the Soviet Armor brigades and do soak off attacks against the PZ divisions until the sun comes up in April. I do this in my games and has worked every time.

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RE: Soviet Unready Units - 12/7/2018 11:29:07 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax


quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

I generally keep most of my units at 80% and set only the guards or nearly guards guys at 100%, along with (later) corps-sized units. Moving units to the rear (at least 10 hexes from the nearest enemy) and setting them on refit will mean that they will increase morale and exp more rapidly. Also, if they are on or near rail lines, they will preferentially get replacements and fill up to their TOE max. Generally during mud, I move my better units - the 100% guys - back ten hexes and let them fill up for the blizzard turns. The Germans will have a couple turns of snow where they could launch offensives but they could also get screwed if they get too aggressive. Especially if you have a strategic reserve ready to throw in.

Are you playing the AI or a live opponent?

Refit can increase morale quicker but makes no difference to experience gain. Experience increase by 3 points up to when experience is half national morale then it is 1 point a turn...like watching paint dry...



The 1 point experience a turn is killer for sure and you sir are 100% correct. The extra MP's for attacking IMO has hurt the Soviets more than the Germans in 41 since after 1 attack on a hex the Soviets pretty much can not make another attack like they used to. This MP addition pretty much dictates the use of +1 attack even in full Blizzards now IMO.

_____________________________


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RE: Soviet Unready Units - 12/8/2018 4:21:11 AM   
thedoctorking


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I think that the best balance, certainly at higher levels of play, is +1 attack and full blizzard. There is actually a +1 defense option available though I don't know what impact that would have.

So Nukxx, you are playing mild blizzard and no attack advantage? You have really given the Germans a huge edge in options.

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 23
RE: Soviet Unready Units - 12/8/2018 6:13:15 AM   
56ajax


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax


quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

I generally keep most of my units at 80% and set only the guards or nearly guards guys at 100%, along with (later) corps-sized units. Moving units to the rear (at least 10 hexes from the nearest enemy) and setting them on refit will mean that they will increase morale and exp more rapidly. Also, if they are on or near rail lines, they will preferentially get replacements and fill up to their TOE max. Generally during mud, I move my better units - the 100% guys - back ten hexes and let them fill up for the blizzard turns. The Germans will have a couple turns of snow where they could launch offensives but they could also get screwed if they get too aggressive. Especially if you have a strategic reserve ready to throw in.

Are you playing the AI or a live opponent?

Refit can increase morale quicker but makes no difference to experience gain. Experience increase by 3 points up to when experience is half national morale then it is 1 point a turn...like watching paint dry...



The 1 point experience a turn is killer for sure and you sir are 100% correct. The extra MP's for attacking IMO has hurt the Soviets more than the Germans in 41 since after 1 attack on a hex the Soviets pretty much can not make another attack like they used to. This MP addition pretty much dictates the use of +1 attack even in full Blizzards now IMO.


My promotion to Sir has been gazetted!!!!


_____________________________

When you escape from the lions den, it is unwise to go back for your hat.

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Post #: 24
RE: Soviet Unready Units - 12/8/2018 1:58:27 PM   
nukkxx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

I think that the best balance, certainly at higher levels of play, is +1 attack and full blizzard. There is actually a +1 defense option available though I don't know what impact that would have.

So Nukxx, you are playing mild blizzard and no attack advantage? You have really given the Germans a huge edge in options.


I guess that this is you call 'full blizzard' ? These are the options of my current game.
And I'm also a beginner ;-)





Attachment (1)

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Post #: 25
RE: Soviet Unready Units - 12/8/2018 3:45:43 PM   
Telemecus


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Yep full blizzard and no soviet combat bonus - for a period of time this has been considered one of the two standard option choices for the game.

(in reply to nukkxx)
Post #: 26
RE: Soviet Unready Units - 12/8/2018 6:00:30 PM   
nukkxx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

Yep full blizzard and no soviet combat bonus - for a period of time this has been considered one of the two standard option choices for the game.

Ah OK, because when I asked on the forum before I started my first PBEM , most answers recommended this setup for a realistic game.

I was wondering if "better maths" is favoring either axis or soviet player or if it's not relevant. It might depend on who's attacking, defending ?

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Post #: 27
RE: Soviet Unready Units - 12/8/2018 6:30:52 PM   
Armatrading

 

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I have seen others write it is pro-Axis in 1941. So probably a pro-attacker thing. But that seems to be an opinion rather than a consensus.

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Post #: 28
RE: Soviet Unready Units - 12/8/2018 6:41:17 PM   
thedoctorking


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nukkxx


quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

I think that the best balance, certainly at higher levels of play, is +1 attack and full blizzard. There is actually a +1 defense option available though I don't know what impact that would have.

So Nukxx, you are playing mild blizzard and no attack advantage? You have really given the Germans a huge edge in options.


I guess that this is you call 'full blizzard' ? These are the options of my current game.
And I'm also a beginner ;-)





Yes, that's correct. You are playing full blizzard and no attack advantage. A good balanced option choice.
I don't think the "better maths" actually has an effect on the outcome of the battle, only on the CV that is displayed on the map.

< Message edited by thedoctorking -- 12/8/2018 6:42:41 PM >

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Post #: 29
RE: Soviet Unready Units - 12/8/2018 7:11:01 PM   
nukkxx


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Re "better maths" , my opinion is that as it gives a more accurate assessment of CVs, it should help the player with the initiative, so the attacker, because it probably prevents some mistakes when attacking.

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Post #: 30
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