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Questions about Air management - 11/24/2018 5:25:47 AM   
scrapking

 

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1) Pretty direct question, but what is the benefit / reason for the Germans to use Fliegerkorps HQs (as opposed to only Luftflotte HQs). It seems to me that you could have a better quality air force by making use of the fewer, really good leaders. The only reason I can come up with is in having another layer of CoC to act as insurance against failed checks, and I'm not sure about the extent of that benefit.

2) Can someone explain, in a crystal clear example, the "Kabuki dance?" I saw it referenced a few times without a very clear explanation, but it seems required to effectively running the air force.

Thanks.
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RE: Questions about Air management - 11/24/2018 4:58:13 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: scrapking
1) Pretty direct question, but what is the benefit / reason for the Germans to use Fliegerkorps HQs (as opposed to only Luftflotte HQs). It seems to me that you could have a better quality air force by making use of the fewer, really good leaders. The only reason I can come up with is in having another layer of CoC to act as insurance against failed checks, and I'm not sure about the extent of that benefit.


Indeed as there is no range penalty on the first level of HQs, and each fliegerkorps can have 8 airbases - you could even just have the three best. Note though that Kesselring is one of the best, but his rank as Field Marshal means he could not command an FK. Likewise more junior officers might not be able (easily) to command a Luftflotte.

However I think you hit the nail on the head - the higher HQ acts when the lower one fails. So the probability of passing a ratings check with two HQs in their chain of command compounded is higher. Usually a higher probability of passing a ratings check is worthwhile.

(There are some diagrams showing the Kabuki - I will search and post a link to one later)

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RE: Questions about Air management - 11/24/2018 10:09:45 PM   
scrapking

 

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Firstly, thanks for answering. I just bought the game, and I've spent many hours between the rules and the forums alone. Which is how I knew enough to refer to it as Kabuki, but not enough to clearly know what it meant.

But perhaps I did not properly explain my first question, I had meant it the other way - e.g. I would use only Luftlotte Command and not use any FK. Your answer still kind of applies though - you imply there will be a range penalty on 2nd level HQ (Luftlotte) - though I'd imagine positioning could mostly alleviate that. That there isn't some other major concern I hadn't considered is the key here. But I also don't have a grasp on the importance of an additional layer of failsafe for skill checks.

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RE: Questions about Air management - 11/24/2018 10:34:20 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: scrapking
But I also don't have a grasp on the importance of an additional layer of failsafe for skill checks.


Consider a situation of where all the leaders give a 50% ratings probability pass. If you have only one level of command then the chance of passing a ratings check is 50%. If you have two it is 75%. So quite simply the extra level just means you have a higher chance of a successful roll. Do you want 50% or 75% probability of success?

(Still looking for the kabuki diagram)

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RE: Questions about Air management - 11/25/2018 12:47:12 AM   
scrapking

 

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The math itself is no mystery to me, but rather the relative values being used. The rules on checks say
quote:

"Each leader rating check is essentially the computer generating a Random(x) value where if the result is less than the leader rating then
the check is passed"


This was the source of my uncertainty, since as x increases, the relative importance of leader skill values decreases. What just clarified this, somewhat, for me was the example below the rule (in blue) where it suggests that the value of x starts at 10, and is then modified by penalties for range, CP limits, support squad TOE, etc. It would have been great if the rules themselves were more clear about this, and frankly a modicum of doubt remains as to whether or not x begins as 10 is in fact always true, or at least in what circumstances, aside from penalty application, it is not.

So yes, assuming penalties are nil, utilizing CoC would (best case scenario) reduce failed checks at the FK level by up to 40% (Kesselring is an 8, but check value is doubled for going up CoC).

e.g. Richtofen is also an 8 Air, and would pass an unpenalized skill check with Kesselring directly above him in CoC at a little over 88% (AG & OKH will still factor in, though very small, 1/40 & 1/80 improved fail rates respectively, before factoring in very likely range penalties as well.

Now, this begs the question if really the best solution would be to have Kesselring as AG command, with only subordinate Luftflottes below him (and no usage of FK whatsoever). Of course now the challenge would be to avoid CP penalties on Kesselring, which would make this pointless, as well as affording the AP costs to create such a structure.

Forgive me for going through the examples above that I'm sure you already understand, but a) it helps make sure that you know what I do or don't understand, b) it helps me to put it down in writing and c) as long as I am, maybe some other noob (besides me) will benefit from it.

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RE: Questions about Air management - 11/25/2018 3:25:23 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: scrapking
What just clarified this, somewhat, for me was the example below the rule (in blue) where it suggests that the value of x starts at 10, and is then modified by penalties for range, CP limits, support squad TOE, etc. It would have been great if the rules themselves were more clear about this, and frankly a modicum of doubt remains as to whether or not x begins as 10 is in fact always true, or at least in what circumstances, aside from penalty application, it is not.


Basically it is, apart from as you say the modifications and penalties - and yes the manual could be clearer! Note that the range penalties from Luftflotte command for many airbases under a FK command can if anything be worse than for ground units. But if you keep many airgroups concentrated on airbases at a railhead it coud be zero for the vast majority of them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: scrapking
(AG & OKH will still factor in, though very small, 1/40 & 1/80 improved fail rates respectively, before factoring in very likely range penalties as well.


Unfortunately no - although I did think the same until the developers revealed an otherwise undocumented feature here http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4362405&mpage=2 see post 36 where Morvael confirms that air ratings of non-air HQ leaders are not used

quote:

ORIGINAL: scrapking
Now, this begs the question if really the best solution would be to have Kesselring as AG command

What I used to do - until Morvael confirmed it was ineffective You could use Kesselring for his excellent ratings for ground combat units - but at least his air rating then would be wasted.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 11/25/2018 4:05:55 PM >

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RE: Questions about Air management - 11/25/2018 3:39:48 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: scrapking
2) Can someone explain, in a crystal clear example, the "Kabuki dance?" I saw it referenced a few times without a very clear explanation, but it seems required to effectively running the air force.


There is an diagram to explain it in post 470 of this http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4250683&mpage=16

This one is more the mechanics of doing it - there is another one about the cycles needed through national reserve and the rear, and of airbases moving forward and back, to optimise logistics. Let me know if that one or any others are what you need.

It should be said it is (I think) the most efficient way of managing an air force - but also very time consuming in time and click labour. You can adopt some of it to get a partial kabuki. Or indeed ignore it if it is not your thing. And in a game with others you can even agree mutually not to do it. So I would not describe it as required - unless you are playing someone else using it and are prepared to spend all the time that it requires because of a need to "win".




< Message edited by Telemecus -- 11/25/2018 6:08:30 PM >

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RE: Questions about Air management - 11/25/2018 9:23:57 PM   
scrapking

 

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Both links you gave me are pure gold. The first really clarifies the whole skill check procedure... it ought to be in the rules...

And btw, I intend on getting myself up to speed to be able to play in a mp game, and I see you organize & play in a lot of them. Give me a few weeks and I'll be ready. To at least run 1 small part, anyway... You say you wouldn't describe kabuki as "required", and that players can mutually agree to not use it - is that the norm in the larger mp games? or is it normal that people use it?

Thanks so much for your help, its a good sign of a decent community.

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RE: Questions about Air management - 11/26/2018 2:04:44 PM   
Crackaces


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Posts 20 - 25 show step by step on the map .. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4360475&mpage=1&key=

It also clarifies why the Kabuki dance is necessary in WITE 1 … and will be obsolete in 2.0 I do think the complexity of the air rules and mechanics gives a tremendous advantage to those that understand the game ...

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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RE: Questions about Air management - 11/27/2018 1:40:35 AM   
scrapking

 

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Hey man, thank you, very helpful. The link Telemecus provided explained the process, but didn't explain the "why" behind it. At my point in learning, I do like to know "why."

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RE: Questions about Air management - 11/27/2018 8:37:09 AM   
MarauderPL

 

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Be wary, the fatigue recovery in the National Reserve is bugged in the current version (1.11.03) and is not effective (only one point per turn).

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RE: Questions about Air management - 11/27/2018 1:31:57 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: scrapking

Hey man, thank you, very helpful. The link Telemecus provided explained the process, but didn't explain the "why" behind it. At my point in learning, I do like to know "why."


In the first instance the why is to do with air miles. If you air transfer forward an air group it will arrive at its destination with maybe 1% air miles flown. If you drive it overground typically it will arrive to its destination with may be 15% miles flown. Given, for example, you can only bomb airfields with the first 33% of an air groups air miles, that is almost half of it gone. It will also arrive more fatigued - the air miles when it would have flown missions most effectively in effect can be wasted on driving. That is not an air force that is a ground force.

Historically air forces did not drive air planes from one airbase to another overground - they flew them. The RAF even had a special group of women pilots for the job. When they did have to move aircraft on the back of lorries they had to detach the wings so they could get down streets - and if they were not meant to be detachable that could damage their structural integrity.

So the first advantage of the kabuki is the economy of air miles used on simply moving airgroups to other airbases.

There are many further points about getting enough fuel/ammo/support/supply into the airbases the airgroups use and in using the National Reserve to recover morale and repair or a rear air base to recover fatigue. That is next stage Kabuki Let me know when you want to see diagrams or explanation of that!

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 11/27/2018 2:04:02 PM >

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RE: Questions about Air management - 11/27/2018 2:28:48 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: scrapking
You say you wouldn't describe kabuki as "required", and that players can mutually agree to not use it - is that the norm in the larger mp games? or is it normal that people use it?

If by mp you mean team games I am in four active ones, half use it half do not. If by mp you mean any human versus human game it is more difficult to say. I was told in one community of users from a forum in China they never use it, in a war gaming club I am part of all do. In the forums here others may be able to give their impressions. I would say a couple of years ago the air war was if anything dismissed as unimportant and not worth spending time on. I think that has changed. I think players who like to play quicker turns tend to skip it, those who are more in to micromanagement do it. I would say now most of the active posters here are certainly aware of it and know there will be times it is needed to stay competitive. I think all will dabble with it partially sometimes at least when they see a particular need.

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RE: Questions about Air management - 11/27/2018 6:08:05 PM   
thedoctorking


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I was a convert a little while back and now use it on both sides, though it is more important for the Axis. I'd say that I have had successful defenses of the USSR during Barbarossa a couple of games now and effective management of the air force has been a component of that success.

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RE: Questions about Air management - 11/27/2018 10:39:06 PM   
scrapking

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

If by mp you mean team games I am in four active ones, half use it half do not. If by mp you mean any human versus human game it is more difficult to say.


Yup, team games. Before I ever think of playing someone 1v1, I want to play a part in a 3v3 or larger game first. Seems it would be a tremendously better learning experience.

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RE: Questions about Air management - 11/27/2018 11:25:44 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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Nada

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 12/28/2018 6:27:27 PM >


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RE: Questions about Air management - 11/28/2018 1:53:20 PM   
Armatrading

 

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I am curious to see the stuff mentioned above about Kabuki for fuel/ammo/supply/support?

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