Resupply?
RE: Resupply?
Don't think resupply is in the game, don't remember anything on resupply in the manual.
Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
"Be Yourself; Everyone else is already taken" ~Oscar Wilde
*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.
"Be Yourself; Everyone else is already taken" ~Oscar Wilde
*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.
RE: Resupply?
Agree, I'm sure I read somewhere that resupply is not modelled in-game.
Cheers
Cheers
RE: Resupply?
I think a heard that there is no resupply in one of the videos. But that begs the question, do units run out of ammo? Or is it endless?
“The study of history lies at the foundation of all sound military conclusions and practice.”
Alfred Thayer Mahan
Alfred Thayer Mahan
RE: Resupply?
ORIGINAL: kevinkin
I think a heard that there is no resupply in one of the videos. But that begs the question, do units run out of ammo? Or is it endless?
They run out of ammo.
RE: Resupply?
Yea they run out, ran out of LAWS rockets at a bad time once when the AI attacked with armor vehicles and the squad had already gotten 4 kills with the 4 they carried, had to pull back.
Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
"Be Yourself; Everyone else is already taken" ~Oscar Wilde
*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.
"Be Yourself; Everyone else is already taken" ~Oscar Wilde
*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.
- PoorOldSpike
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RE: Resupply?
I suppose the solution is to have a few units in reserve to relieve units that have run out of ammo.
PS- I presume enemy units run out of ammo too so at least it's a level playing field..
HEY I just remembered we can order our units to only fire when the enemy gets within a certain range, therefore not wasting ammo by firing at too long a range-
I've red-circled the options, click each one in turn then click map to set two range circles, one for engaging enemy soft units and one for engaging his hard units-
PS- I presume enemy units run out of ammo too so at least it's a level playing field..
HEY I just remembered we can order our units to only fire when the enemy gets within a certain range, therefore not wasting ammo by firing at too long a range-
I've red-circled the options, click each one in turn then click map to set two range circles, one for engaging enemy soft units and one for engaging his hard units-
"Fight with your brain first and your weapons second!"
RE: Resupply?
You will also find some units are immobile, so once out of ammunition, they just sit there waiting to be killed off by an advancing enemy. Despite taking no further action once out of ammunition, if these units could move, they could be withdrawn and thus saved from being killed off easily and prevent your side loosing unnecessary points. But, immobile units can be changed to mobile in the database to prevent this.
RE: Resupply?
Wow, that's an important point. Can that be set for the AI side. I hope so. Without resupply, another way to help the tacAI decided when and what to fire on would be incorporate cover arcs and a filter what to engage e.g. armor only, infantry only, any.
Kevin
Kevin
“The study of history lies at the foundation of all sound military conclusions and practice.”
Alfred Thayer Mahan
Alfred Thayer Mahan
- blackcloud6
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RE: Resupply?
ORIGINAL: PoorOldSpike
I suppose the solution is to have a few units in reserve to relieve units that have run out of ammo.
Yes, this is game where keeping a reserve is important. Many wargames cause you to bring everyone forward to maximize firepower becasue the game is going to end at a certain time so it is better to use all units for fighting and not keep a reserve. i suspect in AB, a reserve may be very important.
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RE: Resupply?
AB is tactical level game. In short tactical combat of batallion\brigade level of forces you will never be able to send additional ammo to your units.
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RE: Resupply?
I'm also curious about this part, some FMs mentioned about emergency resupply. Here, I burrow some commends regarding field resupply from beta forum:ORIGINAL: Sorrow_Knight
AB is tactical level game. In short tactical combat of batallion\brigade level of forces you will never be able to send additional ammo to your units.
Army Research Report 1345, "Field-Expedient Maintenance Experiences of M60-Series Tank Crewmen" of 1983 to be enlightening.
"In making field-expedient repairs... NCOs often use tools or any other available materials in unique and occasionally ingenious ways. Most of the techniques described took 30 minutes or less to complete and generally were effective in restoring malfunctioning tanks to operation."
and this
http://www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/amd-us ... 896%29.pdf
FM 17-15 (1996) discuss so many things for tank platoon, and one of them is emergency resupply technique, introduced from page 248. Depending on the situation, platoon leader for armors can receive tailgate resupply, or service station resupply, or combination of them, during engagement. I think the method I suggested is "service station" option on the battlefield, and this is the one Steel Beast Pro scenarios introduced.
FM mentions that "Generally, the platoon should attempt to avoid resupply during the execution of offensive operations; resupply should be done during mission transition. Resupply is unavoidable during defensive missions of long duration." However, FM also mentions "The situation will also dictate when to resupply" and "Emergency resupply, normally involving Classes III and V, is executed when the platoon has such an urgent need for resupply that it cannot wait for the routine LOGPAC. "
Based on those comments, I think such resupply operation is OK to be introduced not only for defense mission, but also for assault and meeting engagement in this game as well. FM mentioned that decision of emergency resupply is based on situation and commander's decision. FM mentioned "commander should try to avoid resupply during offensive" but they never ruled out such option, so it is still possible for offense and meeting engagement, according to FM.
For the 'limited repair', since this game abstracted battle damage to light and heavy damage only, instead of modeled subsystems, this battlefield repair should be abstracted too. How about only enables light damage to normal, and heavy damage to light damage?
It seems that US Army never ruled out of emergency resupply on field units during operation. FM mentioned that commanders should "try to avoid" to ask resupply during offensive ops, but I don't know about how commanders on the field interpreted that phrase. I think emergency resupply would still be possible, if regimental~divisional commander and staffs agree the situation is dire and urgent resupply is essential around AO, regardless of offensive or meeting engagement or defensive.
Several scenarios from SB Pro also use 'service station' type resupply zone.
I dunno for other NATO nations or PACT forces. If anyone have FMs regarding emergency resupply of field resupply of Cold War FRG/UK/Pol/Rus FM for tank platoon or tank company, that would be great.
- blackcloud6
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RE: Resupply?
ORIGINAL: Sorrow_Knight
AB is tactical level game. In short tactical combat of batallion\brigade level of forces you will never be able to send additional ammo to your units.
Oh I think some units could pull back to supply trucks and get some ammo to keep fighting. It sure would make for an interesting tactical problem, and scenario, to have to do so while covering the resupply mission.
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RE: Resupply?
I don`t know about US Army, but in Soviet resuply only allowed after combat as part of preparation for defence.
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RE: Resupply?
Well, US reports on Soviet army tells a bit differently. FM 100-2-2 (1984) Soviet Army Specialized Warfare and Rear Area Support discuss about tactical logistics of Soviet Arm from different level of elements:ORIGINAL: Sorrow_Knight
I don`t know about US Army, but in Soviet resupply only allowed after combat as part of preparation for defence.
"At the tactical level, Soviet logistic support is fully mobile. Streamlined logistic elements support the respective tactical units with ammunition, POL, and rations to insure continuous combat operations. " Page 13-4
Also, on page 13-15:
"Maintenance facilities in the field are provided for the following items of equipment:
Tracked vehicles.
Wheeled vehicles.
Artillery and ordnance.
Engineer equipment.
Signal equipment.
Chemical equipment.
Service for these items is provided by fixed and mobile repair facilities that extend repair capabilities forward into the battle area. "
In the same page:
"Company Level. Only driver and crew preventive maintenance and routine inspections are conducted at company level.
Battalion Level. The repair workshop contains a shop truck and four mechanics who make routine repairs on tracked and wheeled vehicles. In combat, this repair workshop can be reinforced with a vehicle recovery section. "
Page 13-15 contains table for the range of maintenance and recovery, which includes in-combat service.
Page 13-8 shows the typical placement of such "resupply station" for battalion size attack/defense situation
Page 13-5 shows the table for "Location of Tactical Logistics Element" for typical Soviet army, including battalion and company.
From other document, Soviet Tank Company Tactics (1976) (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/b297807.pdf)
On page 9:
"Resupply in combat is normally at night; each tank company is resupplied in turn. If a tank runs out of ammunition during combat it moves to a position outside enemy observation and is resupplied. In defensive positions ammunition may be placed near the tank position to provide a ready reserve."
"An emergency reserve consists of between 20 percent and 30 percent of the normal load of POL, rations and ammunition, and all spare parts carried in company tanks. This reserve may not be used without orders from the company commander. "
"In combat, a recovery and repair organization is established at battalion level. A technical observation point (TOP) is formed by battalion and company technical officers and is normally mounted in an APC. The TOP moves in rear of battalion headquarters with the task of maintaining visual surveillance over the battlefield to locate damaged tanks. "
"Tanks damaged in combat are repaired on the spot or under the nearest cover by the battalion repair and evacuation group (REG). The REG is formed by the battalion maintenance section with augmentation from regiment as required. It follows the tank battalion and is tasked by the TOP."
All in all, I think Soviet army during cold war were capable of providing battlefield resupply / maintenance / limited repair service during middle of the battle. According to those descriptions, it looks very similar to "Service Center" type emergency field resupply of US Armor platoon / company. At least US intelligence evaluated the ability Soviet army field resupply in combat in good way.
But I don't have 1st hand FMs written in Russians for Red army, and I can't even read Russian. So I was looking for such materials. I'm also Curious how UK and FRG and other NATO nations did. I think it would be similar.
RE: Resupply?
This has been discussed on the Combat Mission and Steel Beasts forums several times. Real life tankers in the US and German armies have stated that reload for normal ammunition is done back from the frontlines if there is any chance of combat. Its done well behind the lines and can take 30 minutes to an hour at least for a tank to fully stock up. As was stated there, if the supply point is 15 minutes to 30 minutes, you are talking close to an hour at least. In a two hour scenario, not having ammo resupply would not seem to be a priority feature.
Now infantry arms and missiles might be a different story.
Now infantry arms and missiles might be a different story.
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RE: Resupply?
Thanks, there was a discussion regarding logistics in beta forum as well. So I think it was possible for NATO and PACT to perform resupply during battle during cold war, right?ORIGINAL: thewood1
This has been discussed on the Combat Mission and Steel Beasts forums several times. Real life tankers in the US and German armies have stated that reload for normal ammunition is done back from the frontlines if there is any chance of combat. Its done well behind the lines and can take 30 minutes to an hour at least for a tank to fully stock up. As was stated there, if the supply point is 15 minutes to 30 minutes, you are talking close to an hour at least. In a two hour scenario, not having ammo resupply would not seem to be a priority feature.
Now infantry arms and missiles might be a different story.
I have a question, if full resupply takes 30min to 1hr, does a tank can choose 50% or 75% resupply, so that finish resupply within 15~30min?
There was a discussion regarding forced attack related with resupply from beta forum. If this game features forced attack then ammo will drained up very fast, so such field resupply would be essential. But I don't know what devs are thinking about resupply and forced attack. I don't think such features will be added soon, even though devs are considering positively.
It might be possible to give some expensive point price to call field resupply units, or introduce minimum point limitation to buy logistics unit from purchase screen. So that both player and AI would not use resupply option for "smaller" games, and naturally logistics would be only possible from "big" games.
Also, it would be possible to distinguish resupply and limited repair, that limited repair takes more time to finish.
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RE: Resupply?
Shouldn't infantry be able resupply from APC/IFV's. At least another load of AT weapons and small arms ammo?
RE: Resupply?
Just change your favorite weapons loadout in a custom Database. This is the strength of the game for me. Every faction, formation, weapon system, and ammo is easily moddable in great detail. But I know most people don't like to mess with this, or obviously not "historical." But this is a sandbox game after all.
Of course it would be easier if he adds a supply truck in a patch, should the community agree, which they won't [;)]
Of course it would be easier if he adds a supply truck in a patch, should the community agree, which they won't [;)]