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RE: Pathfinding, March formation, CONFUSION?

 
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RE: Pathfinding, March formation, CONFUSION? - 11/18/2018 11:11:30 PM   
Veitikka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

I assumed that I could click a location on the map and if I chose March and Quick they would find the quickest path down roads to that waypoint. Are you saying I need to set a waypoint at every turn and corner? Mius Front has the former. Do I need to perform the latter for movement?


If 'march' is used then the SOP pathfinding option (quick/short/cover) is ignored.

You can experiment with this. The more waypoints you add along the road, the more closely the units in the formation will follow it. Sometimes it may be enough to place just one waypoint. If there are several roads to choose from the units may pick different roads. I think they do use the quickest path, but it's not necessarily the same road for all units You know, in some cases there may not be road at all, depending on where the player commands them to go.


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Post #: 31
RE: Pathfinding, March formation, CONFUSION? - 11/18/2018 11:15:28 PM   
Missouri_Rebel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veitikka


quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

I assumed that I could click a location on the map and if I chose March and Quick they would find the quickest path down roads to that waypoint. Are you saying I need to set a waypoint at every turn and corner? Mius Front has the former. Do I need to perform the latter for movement?


If 'march' is used then the SOP pathfinding option (quick/short/cover) is ignored.

You can experiment with this. The more waypoints you add along the road, the more closely the units in the formation will follow it. Sometimes it may be enough to place just one waypoint. If there are several roads to choose from the units may pick different roads. I think they do use the quickest path, but it's not necessarily the same road for all units You know, in some cases there may not be road at all, depending on where the player commands them to go.




I did not know this. I'll try some more. Your thoughts on the column issue above? It it the same? i.e. not enough waypoints, not set to free?

Maybe things would help if on the formation choice screen the modifiers chosen are highlighted?

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Post #: 32
RE: Pathfinding, March formation, CONFUSION? - 11/18/2018 11:22:26 PM   
budd


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Moreb,
I replied to you over at grogheads, in the shots i only used one way point, but i usually place more.

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Post #: 33
RE: Pathfinding, March formation, CONFUSION? - 11/18/2018 11:27:49 PM   
Veitikka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

I did not know this. I'll try some more. Your thoughts on the column issue above? It it the same? i.e. not enough waypoints, not set to free?


I think in your column example the middle unit you had selected strayed off because it thought the other bridge was a faster way to the destination, or the main bridge was blocked because of the one-unit-per-cell limitation. The column formation does use the SOP 'pathfind' setting (unlike the march formation), so if you set the SOP pathfind to 'short' instead of 'quick' they should be less prone to find detours.


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Post #: 34
RE: Pathfinding, March formation, CONFUSION? - 11/18/2018 11:28:09 PM   
Missouri_Rebel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: budd

Moreb,
I replied to you over at grogheads, in the shots i only used one way point, but i usually place more.



Yeah, i seen that. Thanks. I did reply. I appreciate the pics as on Matrix the upload size is minuscule.

http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=20671.105

< Message edited by Missouri_Rebel -- 11/18/2018 11:35:02 PM >


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Post #: 35
RE: Pathfinding, March formation, CONFUSION? - 11/18/2018 11:36:33 PM   
budd


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I let that example run and a few units did re-route but not anything to out of bounds, but they were engaged at the time so it might just be a threat assessment thing.

_____________________________

Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"Be Yourself; Everyone else is already taken" ~Oscar Wilde

*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

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Post #: 36
RE: Pathfinding, March formation, CONFUSION? - 11/18/2018 11:45:54 PM   
Missouri_Rebel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veitikka


quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

I did not know this. I'll try some more. Your thoughts on the column issue above? It it the same? i.e. not enough waypoints, not set to free?


I think in your column example the middle unit you had selected strayed off because it thought the other bridge was a faster way to the destination, or the main bridge was blocked because of the one-unit-per-cell limitation. The column formation does use the SOP 'pathfind' setting (unlike the march formation), so if you set the SOP pathfind to 'short' instead of 'quick' they should be less prone to find detours.




Thanks. I'm going to experiment more. I have a feeling that most of the errors are on my end. It sure would be helpful if the formation panel stayed open when you click the settings and the chosen settings were highlighted to see what has been selected and to differentiate what modifiers are mutually excluded.

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Post #: 37
RE: Pathfinding, March formation, CONFUSION? - 11/19/2018 9:32:11 AM   
geordietaf

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: actrade

I have had the same issue. The DEV mentioned using the march command, but I believe the stacking issue is making organized movement very difficult. Try sending a formation across a bride if you want to see how bad this can get.


Hmmm... anyone got a bride I can try this with?

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Post #: 38
RE: Pathfinding, March formation, CONFUSION? - 11/19/2018 9:34:09 PM   
Veitikka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

It sure would be helpful if the formation panel stayed open when you click the settings and the chosen settings were highlighted to see what has been selected and to differentiate what modifiers are mutually excluded.


The information is already there in the UI. When the formation flag is selected, you see M(arch), S(hortest), Q(uickest) or C(overed) above the flag. The dots next to the flag indicate the shape and spacing. If no dots are seen then the formation type is 'free'.


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Post #: 39
RE: Pathfinding, March formation, CONFUSION? - 11/20/2018 11:15:59 PM   
Mousehold

 

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It seems to me that the root issue is from the pathfinding algorithm (correctly) evaluating a cell with another unit in it as impassable. Perhaps if the unit in the cell is currently moving (or has an order to move, which might work better but it seems less safe from deadlocks) the cell should be treated as passable by the pathfinding algorithm. If the unit is moving then we can reasonably expect that cell will eventually be passable, so it's safe to route through it. Of course if the other unit stops, then the cell becomes impassable and a new route must be found.

One possible worst-case scenario for this is two (or more) units moving towards one another across a narrow bridge. All units will think the bridge is passable until they "collide" in the middle and are forced to stop. They must then reevaluate their pathfinding. Any stuck in the middle of the pack will not see a way off until all vehicles to one side of them have started moving again. This seems like something rare and manageable by the player though.

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Post #: 40
RE: Pathfinding, March formation, CONFUSION? - 11/21/2018 11:15:23 AM   
jnpoint


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geordietaf


quote:

ORIGINAL: actrade

I have had the same issue. The DEV mentioned using the march command, but I believe the stacking issue is making organized movement very difficult. Try sending a formation across a bride if you want to see how bad this can get.


Hmmm... anyone got a bride I can try this with?


No geordietaf, you won't get mine :)

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Post #: 41
RE: Pathfinding, March formation, CONFUSION? - 12/1/2018 10:32:17 PM   
noooooo

 

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This is still currently the biggest problem with the game IMO. Hopefully priority is on implementing a fix for pathfinding in narrow places. The one unit per cell thing has got to go or else any map involving bridges is borderline unplayable.

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Post #: 42
RE: Pathfinding, March formation, CONFUSION? - 12/2/2018 4:51:57 AM   
gbem

 

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curious... werent most european rivers in germany fordable by the T series and 3rd gen NATO MBTs?

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Post #: 43
RE: Pathfinding, March formation, CONFUSION? - 12/2/2018 6:22:40 PM   
Lowlaner2012

 

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Thanks Budd, I tried your advice on the groghead forum and my Chieftans are now sticking to the road 95% of the time...

Below is a cut and paste of Budds advice from the Grogheads forum...

All i did was put the formation in column and used march and picked one waypoint, i usually pick more way points especially if there are a bunch of road choices. I picked column in the formation window and then hit shift+F7 for march and placed my way point, you'll see the text road march at the bottom of the screen when you hit shift+F7. I think you can go into the formation window twice, meaning first hit column, and then hit march but i use shift+F7 after selecting column in the formation window.

Edit...

Honestly I don't see the problems some people are having with the path finding, I just played the desperate measures scenario and had a platoon of M1s follow a road all the way through a forest by following Budds advice above and making sure the spacing was far enough apart, it just takes some experimentation...

Cheers





< Message edited by Lowlaner2012 -- 12/2/2018 7:34:56 PM >

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Post #: 44
RE: Pathfinding, March formation, CONFUSION? - 3/14/2019 3:51:15 AM   
noooooo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veitikka


quote:

ORIGINAL: dpabrams

Vehicles travel off the autobahn and into woods or other squares that are not on the road. I assume this is a "stacking" issue and maybe this will improve when "stacking" is increased?


Exactly. I've even thought about disabling the 'narrow' formation spacing, because in the current system the units collide with each other, because of the one-unit-per-cell limitation. I hope I can increase the unit limit in the patches.

While waiting for that, I recommend to not use the narrowest spacing when moving.



Any news on the increase of single unit cell limitation? Just saw
DasTactic's new video series and with the map he picked (two bridge chokepoints on a very wide river) he's bound to run into some strange issues when units decide to start going all the way over to the other bridge just to get to the other side.

Perhaps in the mean time while it's not yet implemented, rivers should be set to "fordable" as the default. Right now with bridges, units still get extremely confused, and even the AI basically gets stuck at bridges taking many hours to cross over because they keep parking their units on the bridge and when other formations try to cross they all take an extreme long way around.

< Message edited by noooooo -- 3/14/2019 4:37:24 AM >

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Post #: 45
RE: Pathfinding, March formation, CONFUSION? - 3/14/2019 8:31:16 PM   
Veitikka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: noooooo

Any news on the increase of single unit cell limitation? Just saw
DasTactic's new video series and with the map he picked (two bridge chokepoints on a very wide river) he's bound to run into some strange issues when units decide to start going all the way over to the other bridge just to get to the other side.


Lately the campaign generator has been the main focus in the engine. The increased stacking limit will likely make the system less stable, so we want to time this daring step properly.

quote:



Perhaps in the mean time while it's not yet implemented, rivers should be set to "fordable" as the default. Right now with bridges, units still get extremely confused, and even the AI basically gets stuck at bridges taking many hours to cross over because they keep parking their units on the bridge and when other formations try to cross they all take an extreme long way around.


I guess the default water setting should have been 'fordable' all along. This will be even more critical in the campaigns.


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Post #: 46
RE: Pathfinding, March formation, CONFUSION? - 3/15/2019 8:32:29 PM   
Bivoj_MatrixForum

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: noooooo

This is still currently the biggest problem with the game IMO. Hopefully priority is on implementing a fix for pathfinding in narrow places. The one unit per cell thing has got to go or else any map involving bridges is borderline unplayable.


I second that. To be honest, the issue with bad pathfinding is making the game unplayable for me. Not only maps with major river, but also narrow roads in heavy woods (like Finland) are unplayable.

I hope it will be addressed soon. Campaign would be nice, but making the game finally playable is way more important...

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Post #: 47
RE: Pathfinding, March formation, CONFUSION? - 3/15/2019 8:55:59 PM   
Veitikka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bivoj_MatrixForum

I second that. To be honest, the issue with bad pathfinding is making the game unplayable for me. Not only maps with major river, but also narrow roads in heavy woods (like Finland) are unplayable.

I hope it will be addressed soon. Campaign would be nice, but making the game finally playable is way more important...


Well, if you see for example some photos of the Battle of Raate Road from WW2, you can see that the Soviet columns indeed found these forest roads to be 'unplayable'...


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Post #: 48
RE: Pathfinding, March formation, CONFUSION? - 3/15/2019 9:15:09 PM   
reg_reg


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I think that this limitation is annoying, but I wouldn't call the game unplayable because of that.

I played scenarios with bridges and dense wood, and I managed to get my units across and around. I used waypoints and I had to do a bit of traffic management. I allowed only one unit on the bridge at the time, while other units were standing and waiting their turn with disabled waypoints. It sounds tedious, but it was manageable.

However, where I really had an issue was with combat in an urban environment. Let say that one unit is leading the way along the narrow street and other units are following. If the first unit would come under fire it would stop, but then units that follow would get confused and try to find their way around. That can be disastrous and it could lead them straight to enemy positions that I was trying to bypass.

Obviously, removal of stacking limitation is a way to go, but I wonder if a temporary solution could be introduced in the meantime.

For example, could we get a new movement mode, let's call it "Follow the route" mode? The unit would try to find its way around the blockage, but it would limit pathfinding to adjacent squares. And if it could not find its way around a stopped vehicle, it would stop and report that.

It is not perfect, but at least you would not end up with your unit in the wrong corner of the map.


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Post #: 49
RE: Pathfinding, March formation, CONFUSION? - 3/15/2019 9:41:34 PM   
noooooo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: reg_reg

I think that this limitation is annoying, but I wouldn't call the game unplayable because of that.

I played scenarios with bridges and dense wood, and I managed to get my units across and around. I used waypoints and I had to do a bit of traffic management. I allowed only one unit on the bridge at the time, while other units were standing and waiting their turn with disabled waypoints. It sounds tedious, but it was manageable.

However, where I really had an issue was with combat in an urban environment. Let say that one unit is leading the way along the narrow street and other units are following. If the first unit would come under fire it would stop, but then units that follow would get confused and try to find their way around. That can be disastrous and it could lead them straight to enemy positions that I was trying to bypass.

Obviously, removal of stacking limitation is a way to go, but I wonder if a temporary solution could be introduced in the meantime.

For example, could we get a new movement mode, let's call it "Follow the route" mode? The unit would try to find its way around the blockage, but it would limit pathfinding to adjacent squares. And if it could not find its way around a stopped vehicle, it would stop and report that.

It is not perfect, but at least you would not end up with your unit in the wrong corner of the map.




That's a great idea. An sop that allows/disallows changes in pathfinding. It's certainly better than removing the water mechanics entirely.

< Message edited by noooooo -- 3/15/2019 9:46:17 PM >

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RE: Pathfinding, March formation, CONFUSION? - 3/16/2019 3:09:39 PM   
Bivoj_MatrixForum

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veitikka

Well, if you see for example some photos of the Battle of Raate Road from WW2, you can see that the Soviet columns indeed found these forest roads to be 'unplayable'...



Sorry, but that is a silly excuse.
I would be very happy to see realistic traffic jams in forests and tiny roads, but this is not the case. The AI is just dumb and it is forcing units to detour via unbelievable terrain or hell-long detour, acting non-realistically, because of the "single-unit-stacking-limit" issue.

Vehicle Commander: "Hey, Joe, there is a vehicle ahead on our road, we have to take 15km long detour and then 1km via deep forrest"
Driver Joe: "The vehicle is from platoon B and it is moving forward, the same direction as we want to go. Shouldn't we just follow them?"
Vehicle Commander: "No way! Take the detour, it is an order!"

Not even Russians in WW2 were so dumb...

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RE: Pathfinding, March formation, CONFUSION? - 3/16/2019 3:18:04 PM   
Bivoj_MatrixForum

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: reg_reg

I think that this limitation is annoying, but I wouldn't call the game unplayable because of that.

I played scenarios with bridges and dense wood, and I managed to get my units across and around. I used waypoints and I had to do a bit of traffic management. I allowed only one unit on the bridge at the time, while other units were standing and waiting their turn with disabled waypoints. It sounds tedious, but it was manageable.



For me, it is unplayable. I hate the fiddly micromanagement, which can be somehow acceptable at "approach-the-enemy" phase, but fighting around bridge or in dense woods? I spent more focus on fiddling with waypoints, than to deal with the enemy - not fun for me. The AI should be clever enough to perform at least in believable manner.

I am waiting for patch fixing the pathfinding somehow, not playing anymore. The experience is rather frustrating as I see in the heat of battle, that one of my key units is using silly detour, while the rest of my units are being massacred by enemy... (and I did not notice immediately, because after giving the orders, I switched my attention to another part of the battlefield)

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Post #: 52
RE: Pathfinding, March formation, CONFUSION? - 3/16/2019 5:50:43 PM   
Veitikka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: reg_reg

However, where I really had an issue was with combat in an urban environment. Let say that one unit is leading the way along the narrow street and other units are following. If the first unit would come under fire it would stop, but then units that follow would get confused and try to find their way around. That can be disastrous and it could lead them straight to enemy positions that I was trying to bypass.

Obviously, removal of stacking limitation is a way to go, but I wonder if a temporary solution could be introduced in the meantime.

For example, could we get a new movement mode, let's call it "Follow the route" mode? The unit would try to find its way around the blockage, but it would limit pathfinding to adjacent squares. And if it could not find its way around a stopped vehicle, it would stop and report that.

It is not perfect, but at least you would not end up with your unit in the wrong corner of the map.



Something like that could be one solution, but I believe that many players would not notice or understand the additional SOP option, because it seems that even the current march/quick/short/cover scheme is hard to find or grasp to some.

Another solution could be limiting the 'detour' maximum length for the player units. I believe that usually if the unit takes a massive detour then any path close to the old one is blocked, and in such cases it's not possible to stick close to the old path.

I may start working on the stacking limit quite soon. It depends on our other plans. I don't believe that it will be a silver bullet that solves all issues, but it should make collisions with units in the same formation much less common. I don't think the limit should be more than max 2 or 3 units per map cell.


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Post #: 53
RE: Pathfinding, March formation, CONFUSION? - 3/17/2019 10:56:16 AM   
Bivoj_MatrixForum

 

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Limiting the detour maximum length would be great improvment!

Also, a warning message in top-left corner, that a unit is taking significant detour would help. That would lower the frustration, that you have to figure yourself, that the unit is taking non-sense path to assigned waypoint.

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RE: Pathfinding, March formation, CONFUSION? - 3/18/2019 1:37:21 PM   
Edgewalker

 

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Pathfinding is a total mess in this game. Very detailed mechanics are introduced yet game fails on basics. It's horribly immersion breaking when after crossing a bridge 7 of your 10 vehicle squad goes MIA and 1 goes WIA getting itself immobilised in the forest nearby for some unknown reason. I don't remember second wargame since early Steel Panthers with so much pathfinding problems, and even there it was not as bad. I realise there is prolly some trick to make it work, but I'm just not really interested, like I would be not interested in a trick to make a left mouse button work properly. I just expect it to work properly without any go arounds.

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Post #: 55
RE: Pathfinding, March formation, CONFUSION? - 3/18/2019 2:38:09 PM   
Lowlaner2012

 

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Bit over the top mate, the game does alot of things right and it's depth of strategy far outway some pathfinding problems... For me anyway...

There is a method to get tanks to move on roads and bridges not a trick, maximum spacing and march type movement, it work for me at least about 80% of the time...

Cheers

< Message edited by Lowlaner2012 -- 3/18/2019 2:51:08 PM >

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Post #: 56
RE: Pathfinding, March formation, CONFUSION? - 3/18/2019 8:52:54 PM   
Bivoj_MatrixForum

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowlaner2012

Bit over the top mate, the game does alot of things right and it's depth of strategy far outway some pathfinding problems... For me anyway...

There is a method to get tanks to move on roads and bridges not a trick, maximum spacing and march type movement, it work for me at least about 80% of the time...

Cheers


Again: this fiddly micromanagement can be (wrong but) tollerable in approach-the-enemy phase, but in the heat of battle? I am losing units, because of pathfinding issues - this is no fun at all. Unless pathfinding is solved, the game is not working for me:( Which is pitty, because otherwise it is wonderful.

(in reply to Lowlaner2012)
Post #: 57
RE: Pathfinding, March formation, CONFUSION? - 3/18/2019 9:41:34 PM   
noooooo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bivoj_MatrixForum


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowlaner2012

Bit over the top mate, the game does alot of things right and it's depth of strategy far outway some pathfinding problems... For me anyway...

There is a method to get tanks to move on roads and bridges not a trick, maximum spacing and march type movement, it work for me at least about 80% of the time...

Cheers


Again: this fiddly micromanagement can be (wrong but) tollerable in approach-the-enemy phase, but in the heat of battle? I am losing units, because of pathfinding issues - this is no fun at all. Unless pathfinding is solved, the game is not working for me:( Which is pitty, because otherwise it is wonderful.


Yeah, everything else works so well but the pathfinding feels like the elephant in the room. If this game ever hits Steam, the pathfinding and campaign mode are must haves. With those in the game, there would be no glaring problems and would gain very good traction (for a wargame, it is still a niche genre) and income for the developers.

< Message edited by noooooo -- 3/18/2019 9:45:06 PM >

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RE: Pathfinding, March formation, CONFUSION? - 3/19/2019 1:20:36 AM   
nikolas93TS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: noooooo
Yeah, everything else works so well but the pathfinding feels like the elephant in the room. If this game ever hits Steam, the pathfinding and campaign mode are must haves. With those in the game, there would be no glaring problems and would gain very good traction (for a wargame, it is still a niche genre) and income for the developers.


That is exactly the plan, hehe.

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Post #: 59
RE: Pathfinding, March formation, CONFUSION? - 3/24/2019 11:41:15 AM   
mmacguinness

 

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In respect of March formation, I have come to the opinion that the fundamental problem is not simply stacking limits alone, but a combination of

• stacking limits plus
• differing vehicle speeds and
• continuous pathfinding calculations
• influenced by transient stacking obstructions

resulting in the degeneration of a planned and organized march with a defined itinerary and march order into a disorganized rabble with each unit going its own way regardless of orders.

Reference FM 100-2-1 The Soviet Army Operations and Tactics, Chapter 5 Offensive Tactics: Division and Lower:

“A march is an organized troop movement conducted in column formation on roads or cross country. It may be simply an administrative move from one point to another. In wartime, however, the march often will be governed by the possibility of enemy contact. It is planned and conducted with the expectation of contact.”
And
“In any march, the challenge facing the commander is the proper disposition of combat and support elements within the column, to insure efficient transition into combat. The column organization, established before starting the march, should minimize or preclude any reorganizing before commitment in battle”
And
“The advance guard precedes the main force on the same route and provides movement security and warning. It normally consists of about one third of the total combat power of the main force. The advance guard of a motorized rifle regiment is normally a motorized rifle battalion reinforced with tank, artillery, antitank, antiaircraft, engineer, and chemical elements. The advance guard of a tank regiment is normally a similarly-reinforced tank battalion. In a division marching on multiple routes, the lead regiment on each route forms its own advance guard. There is no "divisional advance guard," as such.”



I suggest the following changes to improve the March Formation:

1. Pathfinding is calculated once only when the March order is given.
2. Pathfinding strictly adheres to the specified waypoints
3. Pathfinding should not consider temporary/transient stacking obstructions.
4. March rate (speed) must be specified in the order to ensure different units travel at the same speed.
5. All units, armor, infantry, SPA,SP-AAA, SP-SAM, AT, etc., travel at the same speed.
6. If there is an unexpected obstacle, the column (all affected units) pauses immediately pending obstacle clearance or further orders.
7. Alert message to player when a March is paused.






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