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Why I won't Buy this game right now.

 
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Why I won't Buy this game right now. - 11/17/2018 5:40:27 PM   
z1812


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Hi Everyone,

I have been following the game closely. I also played the free version that was available.

There is a lot to this game and it it has great potential. However it has no PBEM so I will not buy it unless on sale at a very good price.

From watching youtube battles it appears to me that the the A.I. is too weak to support a Single Player game only. Wego and PBEM would kick the engine up to where it should be. It is unfortunate that such a good system is based solely on Single Play.

I wish the developers every success with this game. I really hope the future of this game will include PBEM and wego.

All the Best

John
Post #: 1
RE: Why I won't Buy this game right now. - 11/17/2018 5:54:16 PM   
Veitikka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: z1812

Hi Everyone,

From watching youtube battles it appears to me that the the A.I. is too weak to support a Single Player game only. Wego and PBEM would kick the engine up to where it should be. It is unfortunate that such a good system is based solely on Single Play.



I understand your view. However, could you name a tactical level real-time hardcore wargame that has a better dynamic AI opponent than this game has?


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RE: Why I won't Buy this game right now. - 11/17/2018 8:58:21 PM   
Werewolf13

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veitikka


quote:

ORIGINAL: z1812

Hi Everyone,

From watching youtube battles it appears to me that the the A.I. is too weak to support a Single Player game only. Wego and PBEM would kick the engine up to where it should be. It is unfortunate that such a good system is based solely on Single Play.



I understand your view. However, could you name a tactical level real-time hardcore wargame that has a better dynamic AI opponent than this game has?



Command Ops 2: Just to be fair: Operational level but plays very, very tactical. In some ways AB reminds me of that game and that my friend is a high compliment as I consider CO2 the best wargame played at the Bn/Reg/Div/Corps level ever made for PC - bar none.

< Message edited by Werewolf13 -- 11/17/2018 9:01:22 PM >


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(in reply to Veitikka)
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RE: Why I won't Buy this game right now. - 11/17/2018 9:35:20 PM   
z1812


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From: Toronto Ontario
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veitikka


quote:

ORIGINAL: z1812

Hi Everyone,

From watching youtube battles it appears to me that the the A.I. is too weak to support a Single Player game only. Wego and PBEM would kick the engine up to where it should be. It is unfortunate that such a good system is based solely on Single Play.



I understand your view. However, could you name a tactical level real-time hardcore wargame that has a better dynamic AI opponent than this game has?



Hi Veitikka,

I didn't mention any other games because at the moment they all suffer the same problem. Some games have an A.I. that is to some degree dependable when scenarios are designed, using whatever features a game may have, to increase the sensation of playing an "intelligent" opponent. Battle generators are the worst offenders in terms of poor A.I. performance.

The difference between those games and your's is that they can be played with an opponent by email. The only game I play that has no PBEM and does have a very reasonable A.I. is Command Ops 2. There are other games I could mention but they have PBEM so I rarely play them solitaire.

My point is that Game A.I., at its current point of development in regards to consumer games, is not yet at the stage of being able to offer a reasonable challenge. That is why PBEM is important.....at least for me.

(in reply to Veitikka)
Post #: 4
RE: Why I won't Buy this game right now. - 11/17/2018 9:44:30 PM   
z1812


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From: Toronto Ontario
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Werewolf13

quote:

ORIGINAL: Veitikka


quote:

ORIGINAL: z1812

Hi Everyone,

From watching youtube battles it appears to me that the the A.I. is too weak to support a Single Player game only. Wego and PBEM would kick the engine up to where it should be. It is unfortunate that such a good system is based solely on Single Play.



I understand your view. However, could you name a tactical level real-time hardcore wargame that has a better dynamic AI opponent than this game has?



Command Ops 2: Just to be fair: Operational level but plays very, very tactical. In some ways AB reminds me of that game and that my friend is a high compliment as I consider CO2 the best wargame played at the Bn/Reg/Div/Corps level ever made for PC - bar none.


I agree about Command Ops 2 and mentioned it in my reply to Veitikka. However I would be quite surprised, considering what I have seen of Armoured Brigade, that it would be at the same level. I don't have AB because it has no PBEM. Some friends, whose opinion I have come to trust, may buy it and if they recommend it then I will too. That is how I came to Command Ops 2. Even Command Ops 2 gets little play as I prefer a human opponent.

(in reply to Werewolf13)
Post #: 5
RE: Why I won't Buy this game right now. - 11/17/2018 9:48:24 PM   
Veitikka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: z1812

Hi Veitikka,

I didn't mention any other games because at the moment they all suffer the same problem. Some games have an A.I. that is to some degree dependable when scenarios are designed, using whatever features a game may have, to increase the sensation of playing an "intelligent" opponent. Battle generators are the worst offenders in terms of poor A.I. performance.

The difference between those games and your's is that they can be played with an opponent by email. The only game I play that has no PBEM and does have a very reasonable A.I. is Command Ops 2. There are other games I could mention but they have PBEM so I rarely play them solitaire.

My point is that Game A.I., at its current point of development in regards to consumer games, is not yet at the stage of being able to offer a reasonable challenge. That is why PBEM is important.....at least for me.



I agree 100% that with the technology we have we cannot match a real human opponent. I just want to make it clear that the Armored Brigade AI is certainly not any worse than the AI of the games it was inspired by: Steel Panthers, Close Combat, Combat Mission.


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RE: Why I won't Buy this game right now. - 11/17/2018 10:03:08 PM   
z1812


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[/quote]

I agree 100% that with the technology we have we cannot match a real human opponent. I just want to make it clear that the Armored Brigade AI is certainly not any worse than the AI of the games it was inspired by: Steel Panthers, Close Combat, Combat Mission.

[/quote]

Where Battle Generators are concerned I agree with you....... but without actually playing Armoured Brigade I can't agree or disagree about stock scenarios. I would have to see how the TAC A.I. works for AB in a Designed Scenario
before commenting.

It may be a long time before, at the commercial level, we get anything even close to Human. In regards to games generally, I would settle for small improvements......like not having an A.I. move armor or infantry into position without any thought what-so-ever of cover.




(in reply to Veitikka)
Post #: 7
RE: Why I won't Buy this game right now. - 11/18/2018 1:14:55 AM   
demyansk


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If you played against me, you would want the AI. Not all human players are good or play 12 hours straight. I play a bunch of games and not the master of any. Most of us probably get beat 50 percent of the time. I just played HPS Sicily game and lost, second time playing the game. Oh well.

(in reply to z1812)
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RE: Why I won't Buy this game right now. - 11/18/2018 1:33:22 AM   
z1812


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quote:

ORIGINAL: demyansk

If you played against me, you would want the AI. Not all human players are good or play 12 hours straight. I play a bunch of games and not the master of any. Most of us probably get beat 50 percent of the time. I just played HPS Sicily game and lost, second time playing the game. Oh well.


I am sure you have much more character than the A.I., and so would be a much more enjoyable opponent.

I don't have that much time for gaming and I concentrate on 5 to 6 PBEM games that I always have on the go. I have never played 12 hours straight but I have been playing wargames for a very long time.

(in reply to demyansk)
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RE: Why I won't Buy this game right now. - 11/18/2018 11:54:59 AM   
Sorrow_Knight

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: demyansk

If you played against me, you would want the AI. Not all human players are good or play 12 hours straight. I play a bunch of games and not the master of any. Most of us probably get beat 50 percent of the time. I just played HPS Sicily game and lost, second time playing the game. Oh well.

12 hours straight is not neccessary mostly. In almost all wargames battle lasts for about 1-2 hours (in my Combat Mission experience the longest combat last 3.5 hours), and it is not something unavailable to spare. You are right that not all human players are equal in their skill, but... if you will play against AI only your skill will nevet grow above the level of AI, fighting other people is the best skill training option.

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RE: Why I won't Buy this game right now. - 11/18/2018 12:01:47 PM   
Sorrow_Knight

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: z1812

Hi Everyone,

I have been following the game closely. I also played the free version that was available.

There is a lot to this game and it it has great potential. However it has no PBEM so I will not buy it unless on sale at a very good price.

From watching youtube battles it appears to me that the the A.I. is too weak to support a Single Player game only. Wego and PBEM would kick the engine up to where it should be. It is unfortunate that such a good system is based solely on Single Play.

I wish the developers every success with this game. I really hope the future of this game will include PBEM and wego.

All the Best

John


Thanks for translating my own thoughts... absense of multiplayer and very high cost of the game is the thing I won`t buy AB. Actually if AB cost be half of current (about 1400rubles... yes-yes I`m Russian) I`d think about buying it even without MP,but i`m not ready to pay $43 for gam that soon will just lay in my collection untouched.

(in reply to z1812)
Post #: 11
RE: Why I won't Buy this game right now. - 11/18/2018 12:24:37 PM   
DwarfHeretic

 

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Another person here, same thoughts, same reasons. And, if anybody interested in, i'm Russian too.
And the other thing about me - i'm and AI programmer.
I can believe, that Ventikka made one of the best example of wargame AI ever, surely he had enough time for that.
But, to be fair, i'm not going to believe, that anybody can write AI without using a lot of machine learning techniques, that would be better in competitive tactic and strategy gameplay than humans do.
So, Venikka, if you using ML, it's time to open your cards.

< Message edited by DwarfHeretic -- 11/18/2018 12:25:12 PM >

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RE: Why I won't Buy this game right now. - 11/18/2018 12:47:33 PM   
Capitaine

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sorrow_Knight


quote:

ORIGINAL: z1812

Hi Everyone,

I have been following the game closely. I also played the free version that was available.

There is a lot to this game and it it has great potential. However it has no PBEM so I will not buy it unless on sale at a very good price.

From watching youtube battles it appears to me that the the A.I. is too weak to support a Single Player game only. Wego and PBEM would kick the engine up to where it should be. It is unfortunate that such a good system is based solely on Single Play.

I wish the developers every success with this game. I really hope the future of this game will include PBEM and wego.

All the Best

John


Thanks for translating my own thoughts... absense of multiplayer and very high cost of the game is the thing I won`t buy AB. Actually if AB cost be half of current (about 1400rubles... yes-yes I`m Russian) I`d think about buying it even without MP,but i`m not ready to pay $43 for gam that soon will just lay in my collection untouched.

Johnny One Note who won't give it up. Go. Away.

(in reply to Sorrow_Knight)
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RE: Why I won't Buy this game right now. - 11/18/2018 1:42:57 PM   
rico21

 

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Hi Everyone,

I have been following the game closely but I don't played the free version that was available.

There is a lot to this game and it it has great potential. However it has no French units so I will not buy it unless on sale at a very good price.



I wish the developers every success with this game. I really hope the future of this game will include French Units.

All the Best

Rico.

(in reply to z1812)
Post #: 14
RE: Why I won't Buy this game right now. - 11/18/2018 4:34:34 PM   
Dorb


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Appears should of made the game for free since no multiplayer huh. Guess you can always play the 100s of other games that cover the cold war like this - oh wait.

PC gaming can be an expensive hobby folks. $40 is not that much, I'm old school and recall them costing much more and came with nice big expensive printed manuals.

ps you can always buy board games to play multiplayer, but guess how much a good war board game cost...

Cheers all



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RE: Why I won't Buy this game right now. - 11/18/2018 5:05:53 PM   
z1812


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@Sorrow_Knight @DwarfHeretic

Как дела? Приятно видеть, что некоторые из них разделяют мою точку зрения. Надеюсь, если больше людей попросят онлайн-игры, тогда разработчик включит его в будущем.

How is it going? Nice to see that some share my point of view. Hopefully if more people ask for online play, then the developer will include it in the future.

(in reply to Sorrow_Knight)
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RE: Why I won't Buy this game right now. - 11/18/2018 5:16:38 PM   
KEYSTONE0795


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I bought it and I like it . Do I wish there was a wego option? - sure I do. Do I wish the AI was more sophisticated? - sure I do. Is it fun? - yes it is. I feel like I'm playing GMT's MBT series on the PC against a weak opponent. Do you how much the total purchase price is for GMT's MBT series? - a LOT MORE than $40.

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RE: Why I won't Buy this game right now. - 11/18/2018 5:25:27 PM   
Sorrow_Knight

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dorb

Appears should of made the game for free since no multiplayer huh. Guess you can always play the 100s of other games that cover the cold war like this - oh wait.




I`ve never said that AB should be free without multiplayer =) I just said, that current $42 is too expensive for wargame without MP. And yes, I can always play Flashpoint Campaigns or Combat Mission:Black Sea\Shock Force\Afghanistan etc.


quote:


PC gaming can be an expensive hobby folks. $40 is not that much, I'm old school and recall them costing much more and came with nice big expensive printed manuals.

PC gaming could be expensive but... well... I`ve paid $50 for Combat Mission: Black Sea, Normandy, Final Blitzkrieg and Red Thunder ($200 in total in exept patches for each game, that cost $10 each). But all CM`s HAS multiplayer, there is also 3D graphics etc... without all of this I think, that $43 for AB is too expensive, especially for Russian players (salaries here is much smaller, than in Europe).



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RE: Why I won't Buy this game right now. - 11/18/2018 6:43:42 PM   
Dorb


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Sometimes its bigger than what is the best bang for the buck for you, guessing these folks that make this type of game are not a big fat cat sitting behind a big oak desk in a skyscraper planning on getting rich and never having to work again. sometimes you have a passion for gaming and the time period that is represented and make the game for folks that share that passion to enjoy. - Then again why would anyone want to waste their time and even try to make games like this in the first place these days.

Myself, I bought the game the other day and have not even played it yet as I look over the manual and hope to find the time to dig into it, but bought it for the topic/time period in which I grew up in and want to explore it more and realize that there simply are not that many games that cover this interesting time and possible conflicts. But then again to each their own.

Thanks again for making this game only $40.00 as this is the least I can offer you to keep supporting this game and making others like it.



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RE: Why I won't Buy this game right now. - 11/18/2018 8:06:50 PM   
pensfanvw


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Well said, Dorb!

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RE: Why I won't Buy this game right now. - 11/18/2018 8:10:17 PM   
ivanov


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Here're the reasons why I won't purchase this game now. In the order of importance:

1. No campaign.

2. No multiplayer.

3. No WEGO.

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RE: Why I won't Buy this game right now. - 11/18/2018 11:18:39 PM   
demyansk


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Nice comments dorb, I feel the same way, I get some games and don't always play right away. I sort of like reading about the games.

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RE: Why I won't Buy this game right now. - 11/19/2018 5:35:03 PM   
A Canadian Cat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ivanov

Here're the reasons why I won't purchase this game now. In the order of importance:

1. No campaign.

2. No multiplayer.

3. No WEGO.


quote:

Veitikka
You have some of the building blocks ready to go for #2 and #3:

You have replay (of the whole game right now) which is the basis for replay of the last x minutes of play. You have round mode where the game automatically stops after x minutes. Plus, you have the ability to save games. The big technical problems to support WEGO, PBEM are part way solved. Obviously that still leaves tons of work but you don't seem to have actual road blocks.

So hears to a successful single player launch that makes you boat loads of $ and additional interest in playing head to head!

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RE: Why I won't Buy this game right now. - 11/19/2018 6:03:00 PM   
actrade

 

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Love the potential of the game, but it clearly is a "we got to get it out for the holidays release." With no MP, no single-player campaign (linear or dynamic) and some clanky AI, especially when it comes to movement, immersion and replay value suffer. I'm a little surprised they didn't even cobble together at least a linear campaign ala Flashpoints Red Storm. To be fair, at $40 perhaps that is somewhat discounting what isn't in the game, at least not yet. Longer-term, I think this game is going to be great but it may have to sit on the shelf a few months until a few coats of polish are applied.

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RE: Why I won't Buy this game right now. - 11/19/2018 6:23:53 PM   
thewood1

 

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"With no MP"

Can you show me where MP was committed to prior to release? I've been following this game since early in its freeware state and knew it was pretty clear MP was not in the cards. Please point out where that is written.

As to AI, I have had no issues with it. Most of AI complaints are some people who don't own the game parroting some who had issues. I have played for a couple hours and not seen anything from the AI that I wouldn't expect to see from an average player. I play in dev mode and see the AI's reactions and plans. I don't see any huge issues.

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RE: Why I won't Buy this game right now. - 11/19/2018 6:43:25 PM   
z1812


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

"With no MP"

Can you show me where MP was committed to prior to release? I've been following this game since early in its freeware state and knew it was pretty clear MP was not in the cards. Please point out where that is written.

As to AI, I have had no issues with it. Most of AI complaints are some people who don't own the game parroting some who had issues. I have played for a couple hours and not seen anything from the AI that I wouldn't expect to see from an average player. I play in dev mode and see the AI's reactions and plans. I don't see any huge issues.


No one is saying that MP was previously committed to. What some are saying is that they will not buy the game without it. The intention of this thread is to encourage the developers and Matrix to consider including online play and PBEM in the future. It is not intended as a way of disparaging the game.

If you, and others, are happy with the game as single player only, and you enjoy it..........that's great. For others, no online play is a problem and this thread is meant to highlight that. As far as the A.I. goes, without the option to play another person it becomes more critical for some. Of course we all have the option to buy or not.

I hope the tone of the discussion continues to be thoughtful and does not become argumentative.

< Message edited by z1812 -- 11/19/2018 6:50:20 PM >

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RE: Why I won't Buy this game right now. - 11/19/2018 6:50:34 PM   
thewood1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: actrade

Love the potential of the game, but it clearly is a "we got to get it out for the holidays release." With no MP, no single-player campaign (linear or dynamic) and some clanky AI, especially when it comes to movement, immersion and replay value suffer. I'm a little surprised they didn't even cobble together at least a linear campaign ala Flashpoints Red Storm. To be fair, at $40 perhaps that is somewhat discounting what isn't in the game, at least not yet. Longer-term, I think this game is going to be great but it may have to sit on the shelf a few months until a few coats of polish are applied.


Please note this statement right above mine. I am responding to that. Tell me how you interpret that? I checked and MP and campaign were pretty early on stated as not being part of the release.

No issues if the game is not your cup of tea. Post your feelings and move on to another game. But to claim the game was shoved out the door on false premises deserves a response from someone who has actually played the game.

(in reply to actrade)
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RE: Why I won't Buy this game right now. - 11/19/2018 7:06:53 PM   
overkill01

 

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There is a lot of potential, but I agree that the AI isn't up to the task.

I like Command Ops 2, it has way better AI and it can beat me more than I can beat it. Also Combat Mission, bad AI but it's all scripted so thats fine.
So far I haven't had any match in Armored Brigade that I felt challenged. Not even 1st game ever.

This game needs more well thought out scripted missions and MP.

(in reply to z1812)
Post #: 28
RE: Why I won't Buy this game right now. - 11/19/2018 7:09:11 PM   
CCIP-subsim


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Funny, I'm the other way - I actually play multiplayer so rarely that I often consider it a minus when buying games... not because I think multiplayer is bad, but because especially when you have a small team, everything from writing a stable and functional netcode to balancing gameplay mechanics towards competitive fairness takes a lot of time and effort. And from my perspective as a player, I'd much rather that time go into crafting an experience I could enjoy and learn from in a single player environment, in my own time and at my own pace. But to each their own!

I totally do believe there's such a thing as "bad AI" - but I also think what gets labeled as "bad AI" is sometimes not quite what it seems. Games aren't played in the "real world" - they're played in a hyper-real environment with way more information available to the player more readily than in most real world situations. Players are often very experienced at playing games as a skill of its own, and think like game players or puzzle-solvers rather than real commanders. The most fundamental thing that often "kills" multiplayer war games and simulations for me is the competitive mindset that many players go into these games with - because it results in play styles that, while intellectually stimulating, challenging, and even creative, don't line up well with "the real world" at all. So I often find that AI behaviour gets labeled as "bad" in situations even where it's actually plausible and lines up well with the real world - just that the player has way more information and free choice than the real world would offer, and crushes the AI as a result, feeling underwhelmed and under-challenged as a result.

For me personally, I like using war games as tools to get an understanding of history or "reality" (whatever one might mean by that term) - and as a result, I prefer to approach games like this with a mindset that would be absolutely disastrous in multiplayer. I set house rules and limits on myself. The game can also help along - whether with things like order delays, scenario design, or by using the same AI behaviours for both player and enemy units. In that sense, Armored Brigade's design already seems to encourage delegating authority to AI. I would recommend anyone who finds Armored Brigade's AI too easy to try and avoid micromanagement and delegate as much as you can for friendly AI to sort out itself.

Ultimately, you can't make a game to please everybody. Doubly so, if you are a small developer. But you shouldn't be trying to make a game to please everybody - and, well, it's true that if you mostly like multiplayer, this might just not be a game for you. However, I would encourage people not to be too quick to make assumptions, and to try to play and enjoy on a game's own terms rather than only your own terms. Sometimes you might just discover something that's satisfying in a different way from your usual. Games like Armored Brigade are not made overnight, and are not made without thought - from its very early free versions, I could tell that a lot of thought went into Armored Brigade's design. It's not as though the developers here had no idea how to make a good game that results in satisfying play, or hadn't succeeded at it. It's just that to get the most out of it, you have to get on level with what it's trying to actually accomplish.

For my preference, I would've liked a campaign mode, but we can't have everything all the time, can we?

(in reply to z1812)
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RE: Why I won't Buy this game right now. - 11/19/2018 7:13:58 PM   
actrade

 

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Joined: 11/3/2006
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Where did I say they promised ANYTHING? FWIW, I own the game, like the game, but am noting that without any form of MP OR CAMPAIGN, games like this won't last long in term of replayability, which would be a real shame as I enjoy the game. Take a chill pill man, we both like the game, I'm just pointing out things that will likely have to change if the game is going to stay around long.

(in reply to overkill01)
Post #: 30
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