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Support unit question - 10/25/2018 2:49:06 PM   
Chris21wen

 

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Got another patch question, this from an earlier one.

v1.04.10 - April 18, 2011
The amount of support units can be increased by the level of fortification in the defending hex.

ANybody know if this is correct and what specically?
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RE: Support unit question - 10/25/2018 8:31:46 PM   
SparkleyTits

 

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Ahhhh that sounds very interesting and would make sense with a siege I saw in Sevastapol that I couldn't wrap my head around

Will have to test but I would assume you can get +1 posible SU added beyond the usual 9 into a battle for each extra level of fort you have?


(in reply to Chris21wen)
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RE: Support unit question - 10/25/2018 8:37:15 PM   
MarauderPL

 

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Does the attacker have the possibility to commit more as well? :D

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RE: Support unit question - 10/25/2018 8:52:36 PM   
SparkleyTits

 

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I hope it's both!

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RE: Support unit question - 10/25/2018 9:36:56 PM   
Chris21wen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

Ahhhh that sounds very interesting and would make sense with a siege I saw in Sevastapol that I couldn't wrap my head around

Will have to test but I would assume you can get +1 posible SU added beyond the usual 9 into a battle for each extra level of fort you have?




You need to be careful with this one, there's a later patch that says

Artillery (ART, MORT, ROCKET, AT) support units have priority to be committed into a battle during a special commitment phase. During this round of commitments, defending HQ's have a chance of committing 3 more than the normal limit of committed HQs (so 9 or 21 instead of 6 or 18). After this round, the normal commitment round is conducted.

< Message edited by Chris21wen -- 10/25/2018 9:39:10 PM >

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RE: Support unit question - 10/25/2018 9:38:40 PM   
Chris21wen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarauderPL

Does the attacker have the possibility to commit more as well? :D


No idea, it doesn't say defender just defending hex so prossibly!

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RE: Support unit question - 10/26/2018 4:29:26 AM   
mrblonde1

 

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How many SU units can commit to attack from HQ if 3 are already attached to division?

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RE: Support unit question - 10/26/2018 4:55:53 AM   
SparkleyTits

 

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SU directly attached to a division/corp bypasses and does not count towards the usual max SU activation rules

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RE: Support unit question - 10/26/2018 8:56:29 AM   
mrblonde1

 

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Ok. Lets say I attack with two divisions attached to two ddifferent corps. Each division has 3 SU directly attached. So total number of SU comitted can reach 18?

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RE: Support unit question - 10/26/2018 9:15:44 AM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mrblonde1

Ok. Lets say I attack with two divisions attached to two ddifferent corps. Each division has 3 SU directly attached. So total number of SU comitted can reach 18?

The case quoted previously above of Sevastopol had 23 SUs. 2 hexes x 3 divisions each x 3 SUs in each division was 18. But then an additional 5 came from attachments to HQs (not direct to units) making 23. So we have an actual case of 23 SUs being committed by an attack from 2 hexes.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 10/26/2018 4:47:30 PM >

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RE: Support unit question - 10/26/2018 9:25:43 AM   
SparkleyTits

 

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Well ordinarily I would of thought it would be one of these two scenarios as there are two thresholds for SU (Battles in urban hexes can commit much more SU to a fight)
1: 15 SU for a normal battle, 6 for the 2 divisions with assigned SU and then the 9 maximum assigned SU from HQ's (6 of anything and +3 artillery)
2: 24 SU for a urban battle, 6 for the 2 divisions with assigned SU and then the 18 maximum SU you can have in an urban battle (15 of any kind of SU and the +3 artillery)

Please anybody correct me if my knowledge I am working with isn't 100% correct here!

The problem lies in the first post of this thread as if it is true then the numbers I have been working off are incorrect
For example if a fight was at Leningrad (Urban hex) with a level 4 fort then with the 2 divisions with directly assigned SU then that may mean the SU can go all the way up to a maximum of 28 for both sides with the added +4 bonus to the fort level

Need to test this last part as it could be especially helpful in some normal battles

Hope that helps mate!

< Message edited by SparkleyTits -- 10/26/2018 9:28:56 AM >

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RE: Support unit question - 10/27/2018 10:47:35 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

Well ordinarily I would of thought it would be one of these two scenarios as there are two thresholds for SU (Battles in urban hexes can commit much more SU to a fight)
1: 15 SU for a normal battle,
2: 24 SU for a urban battle,



I've just completed a series of test (see next post) confirming 15 SU in a normal battle but where did you get this from? From what I can see it should be 6 and 18??

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RE: Support unit question - 10/27/2018 10:48:28 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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Just carried out a series of test on the maximun number of support unit that can be committed to a battle.

In the pic there are 18 Corps surrounding the unit. these Corps are from 6 armies of various types controlled by 2 Fronts all armies attacking from different directions. The organisation is

2 Baltic North West to North east
1 Shock A W
54 A NW
10 Gd A NE

1 Baltic South West to South east
3 Shock A SW
43 A SE
6 Gd A E

All are infantry Corps and all have the maximum number of support units attached, three. No HQ exceeds its CP.

To prevent the armies adding any support units to the combat ther are all cout of command range (over 5 hexes away) from their units. All air is turn off using doctrines.

I ran the test 15 to twenty times and although the combat result varied some what the following didn't.

The commanding HQ was always the 10 Gd A
A maximum of 15 support units was used, all 9 from the three corps attached to the 6 Gd A plus three from 23 Gd C/3 Shock A and three from 1 R C/43 A. All attached to the 1 Baltic Front.

Strange thing is there were never any support units committed from any unit attached to the 2 Baltic Front and it was alway these units. In case it was a fixed Random number thing I carried out other atteck prior to this one. Nothing Changed.

One surprising factor was the 10 Gd A was the commanding HQ for the battle. This is attached to the 2 Baltic but none of that fronts support units were committed.

Next test envolved moving the army HQ in. I set them all to three hexes behind the battle hex. Absolutely nothing chnage regaurding support commitment.





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Chris21wen -- 10/28/2018 6:33:01 AM >

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RE: Support unit question - 10/27/2018 10:54:38 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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I should have added other than AA there are no artillery units attached to any Corps in the test.

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RE: Support unit question - 10/27/2018 3:24:16 PM   
mrblonde1

 

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I've jsut had 24 in normal battle.




Attachment (1)

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RE: Support unit question - 10/27/2018 3:26:53 PM   
Telemecus


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In response to the test by Chris21wen

I found it a bit difficult to follow the description of the test. If it is a test and can be saved as .sav file. could it be zipped and attached to the post so that we can inspect it directly?

One thought that followed is that there are limits to the total number of units that can be committed to any battle. This is a separate hard coded limit from the Su limit and is for on map units plus support units. You know the manual better than anyone so will probably know these limits. Is there a problem that you are hitting these which is why directly attached SUs are not in the battle?

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 10/27/2018 3:29:51 PM >

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RE: Support unit question - 10/28/2018 7:15:38 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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quote:

any battle. This is a separate hard coded limit from the Su limit and is for on map units plus support units. You know the manual better than anyone so will probably know these limits. Is there a problem that you are hitting these which is why directly attached SUs are not in the battle?


You can find it here https://btcloud.bt.com/web/app/share/invite/RXhC6kCLSm

Location on map is x77 y36. The pourpose of the test was to see how many support units would be used in a battle and NOT to see how many a HQs would commit, which is why the HQ are out of command range. It say support units attached to gound combat units are automattically committed but this appear to be untrue, or at least not the whole truth.

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RE: Support unit question - 10/28/2018 7:38:16 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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I've carried out further test involving fewer units and the results are interesting.

Attacks from...6 sides....3 sides...3 sides + 1 Corps...3 sides + 2 Corps...4 sides
Units.............33.........36...........33.....................34........... 35
on map............18..........9...........10.....................11........... 12
Support...........15.........27...........23.....................24........... 23

Don't forget each hex side has three corps each with 3 support units. In none of the test did the total number of units exceed 36. I suspect this is an imposed hidden limit.

The number of attached support units that can take part therefore appears to depend on how many on-map units there are.

PS I hate the formatting in a post.

< Message edited by Chris21wen -- 10/28/2018 7:44:02 AM >

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RE: Support unit question - 10/28/2018 7:47:40 AM   
SparkleyTits

 

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Interesting stuff I did not think there was a limit with directly assigned SU
If you theorise that 36 is the limit then this would be easy to reach later in the war but perhaps the limits have more to do with constraints on the battle engine itself

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RE: Support unit question - 10/28/2018 8:48:57 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

Interesting stuff I did not think there was a limit with directly assigned SU
If you theorise that 36 is the limit then this would be easy to reach later in the war but perhaps the limits have more to do with constraints on the battle engine itself


I have, just this second found this.

v1.07.10 - August 12, 2013
There are a maximum number of units that may participate in a combat. The absolute maximum is 40 units per side (including HQs, on-map and support units). The system will try to include all on-map units if possible, but as the number of units gets large (over 25-30), there is a chance that some support units will be left out of the battle even before reaching the 40 unit maximum.

My test were not that far out, and I did not count HQs.

As I'm still working my way through the changes there might me changes to this change.

< Message edited by Chris21wen -- 10/28/2018 9:50:46 AM >

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RE: Support unit question - 10/28/2018 8:52:26 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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I did do a search but did not use the right words.

< Message edited by Chris21wen -- 10/28/2018 9:50:17 AM >

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RE: Support unit question - 10/28/2018 9:07:39 AM   
SparkleyTits

 

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I see

Brilliant work as usual mate and very much appreciated thank you!

(in reply to Chris21wen)
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