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More on Supply - 10/3/2018 12:06:23 PM   
Rasputitsa


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Just started a new scenario - 'ULM 1805, with CHARLES in command'

First turn, decide that the 500 supply points at DONAUWORTH is very exposed and send to LINZ.






In the next turn, see how much progress a big supply convoy has made out of DONAUWORTH, reaching to beyond INGOLSTADT, compared to a lone cavalry unit set to 'quick march' out of MUNICH.

Orders delay to DONAUWORTH should mean that the supply cannot move first and anyway should not have been able to make so much progress.

However, the supply convoy is now 494 points, with 6 points lost in wastage, so there is still some realism in the process. There just needs to be some more realism in the way that supply moves and passes by enemy units sometimes apparently unharmed.

After just two turns the supply has moved 18 hexes, whilst the cavalry managed 5, on quick march, but continues to suffer wastage, now at 483 points.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Rasputitsa -- 1/3/2019 12:25:19 PM >


_____________________________

"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon

“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon

“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
Post #: 1
RE: More on Supply - 10/4/2018 5:53:59 PM   
Rasputitsa


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Another aspect of supply is that the player can send very large convoys of supply, of many 100's of supply points, which is not credible, as that would need the instant availability of 100's of wagons. I have set up convoys of over 1000 points and there may be an upper limit because the game did not respond to player orders for convoys at 2000 points, but it's still too high.

In one example a convoy of over 1000 supply points, which I set up, moved from BUDWEIS to WIMPERK and unloaded into the LOC, all within one turn.

To avoid this feature I have been using 'house rules' to get a more realistic effect.

Included is a house rule on the handling, by the player, of captured enemy supply, which can also result in large convoys being created under the existing game system.

…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
House Rules text:

Enemy supply can be captured during the game and it is possible for the player to direct supply from a captured depot to the LOC. There would not be the wagon capacity to move large quantities of supply from enemy territory, therefore it would have to be used in situ, or destroyed.

House Rule : Captured supply cannot be sent to the LOC by the player, the computer supply control system may do this, but the player must either, set a corps commander to use the supply from the captured depot, or burn the supply.

The supply system, even when set to computer control, allows the player to send unrealistically large amounts of supply to the LOC, or to other towns. This is compounded by the unrealistically fast movement of these large supply convoys.

House Rule : The player may form supply convoys of no more than 100 supply points.

Note : the computer controlled supply system rarely sends out supply convoys with more than 100 supply points.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

Here is the game's display of the computer controlled supply during a game, which lists active convoys, and most of the convoys are below 100 supply points, so the computer and an AI opponent are acting reasonably, it is the human player who is able to act unrealistically and 'house rules' can modify that effect.






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< Message edited by Rasputitsa -- 10/4/2018 6:06:06 PM >


_____________________________

"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon

“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon

“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon

(in reply to Rasputitsa)
Post #: 2
RE: More on Supply - 12/31/2018 12:24:20 PM   
Rasputitsa


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One reason for the speed that supply moves is that there does not seem to be the same orders delay for supply that applies to fighting units.

When a supply movement is set up it seems to apply immediately, with a supply convoy counter appearing on the map with no delay and has already moved when the next turn starts.

Example, I can order a supply transfer from PRESSBURG to LOC LINZ and a convoy is created whilst I issue orders to other units, so that it will move immediately in the same turn. However, the orders delay for a unit nearby at VIENNA, from CHARLES at LINZ is 22 hours, so nothing can happen for at least one whole turn. Supply is immune to this delay.

Not a big issue, but still an anomaly.

_____________________________

"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon

“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon

“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon

(in reply to Rasputitsa)
Post #: 3
RE: More on Supply - 1/2/2019 2:19:35 PM   
pzgndr

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
there does not seem to be the same orders delay for supply that applies to fighting units


As Napoleon said, "The amateurs discuss tactics: the professionals discuss logistics." Logisticians don't need to wait for stinking orders, they anticipate everything in advance!

Seriously, good catch and Frank should address this. It would be nice to hear from him again, with an update about any future improvements or the status of the Elbe game.

(in reply to Rasputitsa)
Post #: 4
RE: More on Supply - 1/2/2019 4:32:18 PM   
coachi

 

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Is Frank still designing? He hasn’t had a game in a long time. Wish he would.

(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 5
RE: More on Supply - 1/3/2019 9:56:54 AM   
Rasputitsa


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From: Bedfordshire UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
there does not seem to be the same orders delay for supply that applies to fighting units


As Napoleon said, "The amateurs discuss tactics: the professionals discuss logistics." Logisticians don't need to wait for stinking orders, they anticipate everything in advance!

Seriously, good catch and Frank should address this. It would be nice to hear from him again, with an update about any future improvements or the status of the Elbe game.



quote:

ORIGINAL: coachi

Is Frank still designing? He hasn’t had a game in a long time. Wish he would.


I don't think this is a big problem, as although the game represents actual supply depots and convoys, it still abstracts a lot of the historical supply effects. A lot of supply came from foraging and if the game supply system were to be time constrained, it would become too restrictive. It is odd to see supply convoys 'racing' around the map, but overall the historic balance is OK. Loss of supply is critical in the game as although the troops could forage for food, gunpowder and shot has to come through the LOC.

I am using house rules to get a better balance against the AI, by restricting the size of supply convoys that the player can create. I am playing a game right now, which I hope to turn into an AAR and it has become necessary to move the 2000 pnts of supply out of MUNICH and with the present game configuration this can be done in one turn. The player can order supply movements of up to 1000 pnts and setting two convoys of this size will empty MUNICH in the same day. This is unrealistic, so I have set a house rule for convoys of normally no more than 100 pnts (but 300 pnts for larger cities like MUNICH, with more wagons available) and only one convoy per turn from each site.

The result in the game is that, after several days, I got most of the supply out of MUNICH, but lost about 500 pnts when the Austrians arrived.

Note that if you try to create a convoy which is too large, the created convoy which is listed in the supply system info panel defaults to only 1 supply point.

The beauty of the game is its simplicity, but with complex outcomes, so it doesn't need much change, but a few simple house rules can increase the challenge against the AI.

I made the CHEMKID mod files available to Matrix, some months ago, to be placed in the Members Area, but nothing has happened. There has been no response to comments made on the game, so not much prospect of further development, which is a great shame, because the potential for developing scenarios into other campaigns is very appealing.

< Message edited by Rasputitsa -- 1/3/2019 11:02:40 AM >


_____________________________

"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon

“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon

“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon

(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 6
RE: More on Supply - 1/3/2019 11:07:58 AM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 2447
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Here's what happens if you exceed the size restriction on supply convoys.







Tried to remove the 2000 points of supply from MUNICH in one go, but this exceeds the 1000 pnts limit, so the convoy size defaults to only 1 point, as can be seen in the city list where MUNICH has reduced to 1999 pnts.

Either way, I think that 1000 pnts and as many convoys as you want to select is too much, hence the suggestion for house rules.

The reason for not being too strict on supply movement is the initiative that could be shown by supply officers, as this extract shows :

...........................................................

With respect to its material, it so happened that the Park of Reserve Ammunition Waggons had, in the first instance, been directed upon Gembloux; and Colonel Röhl, who superintended the Ordnance Department of the army, sent his aide de camp during the night of the 16th to conduct this reserve to Wavre; whilst he himself hastened to the latter town, for the purpose of putting the whole of the artillery, accordingly as it arrived there, again in a fit state for action. The supply of ammunition, however, was necessarily incomplete; but in order to prevent any failure in this respect, should some mishap occur to the Park of Reserve Ammunition Wagons, a courier was despatched to Maestricht, with directions for the speedy transport of a supply of ammunition from thence to the Army, by means of the common wagons of the country. Similar orders were conveyed to Cologne, Wesel, and Münster: and, by way of precaution, an express was sent to Liege for the removal of the Battering Train to Maestricht;

Fortunately, however, the Reserve Ammunition Wagons reached Wavre safely at five o’clock in the afternoon of the 17th. The corps and batteries were furnished with a complete supply of ammunition, and the army was thus placed in a perfectly efficient state for commencing another battle. This turn of affairs was most encouraging, and Blücher delayed not another moment in despatching to Wellington the reply to which allusion has already been made.

Siborne, William. Siborne’s 1815 Campaign: Volume 1 . Leonaur. Kindle Edition.

...........................................................


This is the situation after the battle of Ligny 1815, where the Prussian army has expended a great deal of powder and shot and whilst they can steal, or buy food, ammunition has to come from the depots, or the army is helpless. They are preparing to take civilian wagons from far and wide to collect supply from remote depots.

It would be useful in the game to be able to re-direct supply convoys, already created and on the move, to alternative destinations.

The game system for supply is quite generous in quantity and speed, but could be seen as representing much more than just basic supply convoys, so the apparent anomalies are not that serious when controlled by house rules.






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Rasputitsa -- 1/3/2019 12:31:00 PM >


_____________________________

"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon

“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon

“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon

(in reply to Rasputitsa)
Post #: 7
RE: More on Supply - 1/3/2019 11:21:38 AM   
loki100


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From: The wilds of Caithness
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

...

I made the CHEMKID mod files available to Matrix, some months ago, to be placed in the Members Area, but nothing has happened. There has been no response to comments made on the game, so not much prospect of further development, which is a great shame, because the potential for developing scenarios into other campaigns is very appealing.


as you say, as it is its a brilliant game.

But I've just read Wawro's books on the Austro and Franco-Prussian wars and it left me (a) with even more admiration for how well this game captures army movement pre-motorisation and (b) it could ideally be adapted to give a brilliant simulation of both of those campaigns. The complexity of actually moving an army and even worse of trying to shift the axis of advance really came over in both books.

_____________________________


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Post #: 8
RE: More on Supply - 1/3/2019 11:39:19 AM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 2447
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

...

I made the CHEMKID mod files available to Matrix, some months ago, to be placed in the Members Area, but nothing has happened. There has been no response to comments made on the game, so not much prospect of further development, which is a great shame, because the potential for developing scenarios into other campaigns is very appealing.


as you say, as it is its a brilliant game.

But I've just read Wawro's books on the Austro and Franco-Prussian wars and it left me (a) with even more admiration for how well this game captures army movement pre-motorisation and (b) it could ideally be adapted to give a brilliant simulation of both of those campaigns. The complexity of actually moving an army and even worse of trying to shift the axis of advance really came over in both books.


I am constantly impressed with the way the game situations portray the situations that you read in the historical record.

The Peninsular War might be a good subject, with other horse and musket campaigns making likely candidates. The game is not perfect and some features could be tidied up, but without more noise on the forum there seems to be little reaction from Matrix.

Which is a great shame, because there is the potential for a great series of games here.


_____________________________

"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon

“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon

“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 9
RE: More on Supply - 1/3/2019 2:49:01 PM   
pzgndr

 

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From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
It is odd to see supply convoys 'racing' around the map, but overall the historic balance is OK...


Perhaps a simple mod to reduce supply convoy speed might help. Is this editable? Maybe reduce whatever it is to 75% or something. Just a thought.

(in reply to Rasputitsa)
Post #: 10
RE: More on Supply - 1/3/2019 3:22:27 PM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 2447
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
It is odd to see supply convoys 'racing' around the map, but overall the historic balance is OK...


Perhaps a simple mod to reduce supply convoy speed might help. Is this editable? Maybe reduce whatever it is to 75% or something. Just a thought.


I see nothing in the game folders that we can access and there is no editor, so house rules are the only way for the players to modify their game capabilities, which of course will not apply to the AI, but then it needs the advantage of unrestricted play.


_____________________________

"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon

“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon

“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon

(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 11
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