Political Points (PP). Full price is full price. Or is it?

[rustysi]

So here's something I've been pondering (crap not again[:D]).

In my current AI game I've set it as such, my own HR. Easy to do against the AI. What's that you say? No unit may be brought out with less than a 90/xxx level of ready devices. Simply, it must be 90% ready devices to be brought out. Not too difficult when talking about the Japanese, but I don't get those 'free' units that may be really reduced in China. It slows the pace a bit, which is what I'm looking for.

So, I'm thinking this will be another ([8|]) HR for a PBEM game, because well full price is full price. Now that's easy to say, but is it fair to the Allies? Or is it too restrictive? My intention is to slow the pace of the game a bit, not to break it. I have little knowledge as to how many Allied units may need to be brought out, what their initial strength is when 'placed' on map (therefore affecting their cost), or how quickly they may get to full strength given device availability.

So I'm seeking input from the forum. What do you think, and try not to answer from the perspective of whether you like such a restriction, but from a point of fairness. Maybe the level is too high. If so what should it be, 80%, 50%? I don't want to make it such that the Allies can't get their actual OOB to the front. I just don't want it all there in '42. Unless it was there in the first place. Also, maybe the levels should be different for the two sides. Maybe 90% is OK for Japan, and say 75% for the Allies. Don't abuse that recommendation.[:D]

I do have a few units in mind that would be exceptions. For example the US 41 ID. In the original release it was unrestricted. For whatever reason the Dev's changed this, and said they gave the PP's back elsewhere. OK, so I don't want this unit to cost the Allies any more than it should, so buy it out at any level of completeness. Another example would be the units in China that were 'withdrawn' to Burma. Any that need to be brought out could be done at any level. They were after all essentially 'rebuilt' in Burma/India, and from a cursory look there aren't that many that could/have to be brought out anyway. Some of those units are unrestricted to begin with.

The point is to just slow things a bit for both sides. The initial expansion, and the subsequent reconquest. Or am I fiddling where none is needed? Is this way off the mark? Its difficult to know what the DEV's intended here and I'm not a mind reader. Not only that I get that this facet of the game may not have been fully tweaked before release, but it is with us. So I'm looking for a bit more insight (if possible) into the PP subsystem of the game. All help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance for your input.[8D]

[szmike]

Imho not (ab)using air HQs to buy out ground forces is enough of a HR.

[btd64]

What scenario are you using? What is the current PP's pay out per turn? If it's a mod with a larger amount of PP's then I would say around 70 to 80%. If it's a stock 1 scenario then I wouldn't worry about it....GP

[rustysi]

Yeah, thanks GP. I forgot to mention the scenario is stock 1. That means 50 PP/side/day.

[btd64]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Yeah, thanks GP. I forgot to mention the scenario is stock 1. That means 50 PP/side/day.

I wouldn't worry about it then....GP

[HansBolter]

I see this as counterproductive.

How are you delaying anything any more?

If you buy a unit out more cheaply because it is at 20% TOE strength, you're still gonna have the same delay in USING it because you are likely to allow it to spend time filling out the TOE to at least 70% before committing it to battle.
And furthermore, you are still paying Full Price for that 20% of the TOE that you are buying.


Personally, I don't want to have to pay PPs for devices from the replacement pool that I should be getting for free.
By forcing the player to send those replacements to a unit that has to be bought out you are also forcing them to pay for the replacements.

I never allow a restricted LCU to take replacements unless that LCU will be defending its location against an assault.

[btd64]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I see this as counterproductive.

How are you delaying anything any more?

If you buy a unit out more cheaply because it is at 20% TOE strength, you're still gonna have the same delay in USING it because you are likely to allow it to spend time filling out the TOE to at least 70% before committing it to battle.
And furthermore, you are still paying Full Price for that 20% of the TOE that you are buying.


Personally, I don't want to have to pay PPs for devices from the replacement pool that I should be getting for free.
By forcing the player to send those replacements to a unit that has to be bought out you are also forcing them to pay for the replacements.

I never allow a restricted LCU to take replacements unless that LCU will be defending its location against an assault.

exactly....GP

[Macclan5]

I understand the intent...

There are a number of divisions in Australia, the USA and even India which can be bought out inexpensively if one is judicious with their PP.

They can make some significant difference by mid 1942 if you get them to targets prior to the KB and IJN forces.

Hans has essentially answered the point however; you are paying full price for Divisions not upgraded and then probable allow them to sit for some time to gather devises / etc / etc

Rather than home rule this - consider the incremental PP gathered is truly reflective of the 'debate on Europe First Strategy' ; and further buying out the occassional unit through the judicial use of points reflect Admiral King 'wining the debate' on specifying the need to Shore Up the Pacific Ocean

[rustysi]

How are you delaying anything any more?

If I spend say 1000 PP's to buy out a division that at full strength will cost me 2000 PP's (or near it) that one thousand PP's more to get the next division. That's 20 days of PP's how is that not delaying things. If I buy out two of those divisions they'll both reach their respective full TO&E at the same time anyway. Difference is one can go anywhere, the other is stuck in its current domain until I save enough PP's to get it out.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

How are you delaying anything any more?

If I spend say 1000 PP's to buy out a division that at full strength will cost me 2000 PP's (or near it) that one thousand PP's more to get the next division. That's 20 days of PP's how is that not delaying things. If I buy out two of those divisions they'll both reach their respective full TO&E at the same time anyway. Difference is one can go anywhere, the other is stuck in its current domain until I save enough PP's to get it out.

Its the same delay essentially since the unit you buy at 1000 won't be effective to use until it fills out to what would have cost 2000.


Sure, buying it out in its weaker state at 1000 allows you to move it, but why would you and what significant impact will it have in its weakened state?


The only Allied units this has a significant impact on is Indian and to a small degree Aussie divisions.


Most of the American restricted divisions start or enter at near full TOE and run 1900-2100+ PPs to buy out.

[rustysi]

They can make some significant difference by mid 1942 if you get them to targets prior to the KB and IJN forces.

Exactly my point. Now if those divisions were fielded by that time anyway so be it, I don't want to delay them further. Playing Scenario 1 as Japan is difficult enough against a live opponent, I don't want the added difficulty of facing units that weren't in my way to begin with. Well not too many anyway. Japan is really stretched for forces to make the expansion, and its taken me quite some time to get to the point where I believe I may make it against an opponent of comparable skill. I'd just like to reach the RL limits of the empire, with maybe a base or two more. Ya know like PM.[:D]

[rustysi]

Its the same delay essentially since the unit you buy at 1000 won't be effective to use until it fills out to what would have cost 2000.


Sure, buying it out in its weaker state at 1000 allows you to move it, but why would you and what significant impact will it have in its weakened state?

Sorry Hans. Again you miss the point. By getting the units cheaper you'll have that much more when they do fill out. Understand? If I get basically two for one, that means I can get more once they fill out. If I have to fill them out first and then buy them at full price I can't get that many to the front as quickly.

[rustysi]

Most of the American restricted divisions start or enter at near full TOE and run 1900-2100+ PPs to buy out.

Thanks, that's exactly the type of info I was seeking, although I may not have said so clearly enough. So in these cases it doesn't make any difference.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

They can make some significant difference by mid 1942 if you get them to targets prior to the KB and IJN forces.

Exactly my point. Now if those divisions were fielded by that time anyway so be it, I don't want to delay them further. Playing Scenario 1 as Japan is difficult enough against a live opponent, I don't want the added difficulty of facing units that weren't in my way to begin with. Well not too many anyway. Japan is really stretched for forces to make the expansion, and its taken me quite some time to get to the point where I believe I may make it against an opponent of comparable skill. I'd just like to reach the RL limits of the empire, with maybe a base or two more. Ya know like PM.[:D]

But you want the freedom to go to places the Japanese didn't go knowing they will be either weakly or undefended!

If the Japanese are free to go wherever they want instead of the historical locations at the historical times (the real point of any waragme) then how is it unfair for the Allies to possess a little flexibility to be able to pick and choose which of those weakly or undefended locations to attempt to defend?

JFBs always want to have their cake and eat it to. Hasn't the basic game design given your side enough breaks already?

[rustysi]

The only Allied units this has a significant impact on is Indian and to a small degree Aussie divisions.

And this too is what I'm talking about. I know the Aussies' don't really fill out quickly. Correct me if I'm wrong. Its also my understanding that their replacement rates are low and it would be difficult for them to sustain heavy losses, at least in the early going. True? If not let me know.

As to the Indians I'm more in the dark. Its my understanding the their squad replacement rates aren't too bad, but they too have limited access to other devices. True?

[rustysi]

JFBs always want to have their cake and eat it to.

Here we go again. Hans I'm trying to have a discussion here, not tilt the game to 'my' side. If you've read any of my posts you 'll know that whatever I ask for one side in a game when I play the other the same 'rules' will apply.

[rustysi]

But you want the freedom to go to places the Japanese didn't go knowing they will be either weakly or undefended!

Every place Japan went in the early go was weakly defended. I just don't want to land at PM and find the whole damned US Army and Marine Corps at the place.[:D]

[rustysi]

Not that that is possible. Just saying. I don't know, having only concentrated on Japan as yet. I'd really like to give my opponent in a PBEM a good tough fight, not have him or her tie one hand behind their back. Its why I ask questions like this. I come seeking knowledge of which I don't know.

Actually, so far I'm leaning to not worrying about the whole thing, but am not 100% sure as yet. Now can we talk without flinging stuff at one another?[:)]

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

JFBs always want to have their cake and eat it to.

Here we go again. Hans I'm trying to have a discussion here, not tilt the game to 'my' side. If you've read any of my posts you 'll know that whatever I ask for one side in a game when I play the other the same 'rules' will apply.

Sorry, you took offense. It was meant in jest.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

But you want the freedom to go to places the Japanese didn't go knowing they will be either weakly or undefended!

Every place Japan went in the early go was weakly defended. I just don't want to land at PM and find the whole damned US Army and Marine Corps at the place.[:D]

I understand where you are coming from, but its the Japanese players ability to go to almost completely undefended locales that they did not historically go to like India and Australia that have Allied players scrambling to buy out units to defend.


By the time you should be hitting PM the Allies haven't accrued enough points to buy out a single restricted American division let alone sufficient time to get it there.