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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE

 
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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/28/2018 4:41:15 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JagWars

quote:

quote:

Another map change is in the Med. La Spezia no longer borders the western med. In fact, no major Italian port does and subs can be air attacked in minor ports and can't evade. So the Italians have one lower box now in St Vincent sea zone and in most cases, for those that can get there will be a 1 box, 2 if you're real lucky on your sub picks.

Historically, Axis subs did not leave the Mediterranean. The Germans did sneak a few into the Med from the Atlantic by shutting off their engines and allowing the current to pull them through.
I was hoping that this would be corrected in RAW 8, but alias, it appears not.

As I understand it (and I am certainly not an expert), the current through the Gibraltar Straits has an upper level flowing in one direction and lower level flowing in the other direction. If so, then sending submarines through without using their engines should be possible in both directions.

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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/28/2018 11:49:36 AM   
RickInVA

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

Another map change is in the Med. La Spezia no longer borders the western med.




I still have to unpack my CE, so I didn't notice this. However, I find it to be a very strange design choice. Basically, you can go around the peninsula and enter the Eastern Med just like that, but you have to spend a movement point to enter... uhm... the very sea area where the port is situated? IIUC the thing, this is not smart


Every mainland Italian port only fronts on the Italian Coast region. What is wrong with that?

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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/28/2018 12:25:57 PM   
Joseignacio


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Rick, the division of the Med in three areas is totally arbitrary, as their (sea) boundaries.

Genoa and La Specia will always face the same sea, the arbitrary limits seem to have changed. It's a matter of Game design. Geographically as far as they are between the alps and Pisa (more or less) and by the sea it obviously is correct in both cases.

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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/28/2018 4:03:01 PM   
Joseignacio


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ok, although the last game we played with the latest rules closer to WIF CE, they were not exactly the same. Besides, the box itself arrived when the game was on, so we couldn't use the map.

We are using the new map for the new one but we have only played 1 day (August holidays time...) and the IT are not at war (Me = CW + USA) so I hadn't seen it.

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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/28/2018 8:10:59 PM   
RFalvo69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RickInVA
Every mainland Italian port only fronts on the Italian Coast region. What is wrong with that?


Imagine if every mainland British port only fronts a "British Coast Region", then you move into the North Sea. The level of "Uhu?" would cross the red line.

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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/28/2018 11:21:43 PM   
RickInVA

 

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Given the characteristics of the Italian Fleet, mostly 2 range with 5 and 6 movement, if the Med is going to be split into three zones then the new division makes a lot of sense to me. YMMV.

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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/29/2018 2:19:52 PM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RickInVA

Given the characteristics of the Italian Fleet, mostly 2 range with 5 and 6 movement, if the Med is going to be split into three zones then the new division makes a lot of sense to me. YMMV.


Personally, I don't grasp the splitting into the sea zones for the Med at all, not even in the old edition. Considering the range and the movement capabilities of the Italian navy historically, one should conclude that the Med should be devided in two sea zones, with Italy in between. Only if one would allow the Littorio BB's a movement rate of 6 (and not 5 as it is now), one can have 3 sea zones in the Med.
But it's probably a way of balancing the game...

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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/29/2018 5:20:14 PM   
paulderynck


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Much discussed on the rules list and I think decided based on how easy or hard it may be to invade Sicily.

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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 9/10/2018 7:24:59 AM   
quiritus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Yes, there are changes in the deployment but I believe this is not the issue. Now I remember which was the problem with the DK reserve, GE declares war, invades and takes Copenhagen before the Danish impulse so that militia never arrives because Copenhagen is taken before the Allied impulse. I guess this needs to be changed in the rules or the Copenhaguen Militia&Reserve is worth for nothing (if it is a reserve as I believe now).

quote:

9.7 Calling out the reserves

Each major power and many minor countries have reserve units that
may now be called out provided they are at war with a major power.
During your impulse you may call out reserves of such major powers
and minor countries you control that have ‘Res’ on the back of their
counter. If a reserve unit has a particular major power named on its
back, you may only call it out while you are at war with that major
power.

I can see it's a 2-2 militia in the #24 countersheet but I cannot see it's back online, to see whether it's a RES as well.

The 2-2 is a res, but as you say is not so much relevant this change for denmark: the only is that GE have to arrive to capital in one impulse. is relevant for major: GE on first allied S/O 39 impulse don't have res on map and for URSS if GE DOW (no Leningrad MIL as exemple) or Italy if allied dow: no res on board on first enemy impulse (3 div invasion on factory hex have a 50% success 2d10 60% 1d10, fleet also have to be guarded or put in Trieste-Taranto). for most of minor only put a pressure to occupy res city on DOW impulse (UK on portugal as an example, landing on north with div in FE there is 1 GAR the first turn on capital, in CE 1 GAR and 1 MIL fd)


< Message edited by quiritus -- 9/10/2018 7:58:50 AM >

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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 9/11/2018 1:59:39 PM   
Joseignacio


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quote:

ORIGINAL: quiritus

The 2-2 is a res, but as you say is not so much relevant this change for denmark: the only is that GE have to arrive to capital in one impulse.


That's what I thought, although I made a mess of an explanation. Being a Res, you can deploy them in the Danish impulse. But if the GE waits for a Fine weather impulse and leaves there one rusty MOT DIV or a MOT CORP he can take it with no problems. IIRW you could use a Mech if you can spare one, and you can use a unit moving 5 or it could even be even 4 (and leave it disorganized) to overrun the ships that may be deployed in Friedrichshaven as well.

quote:

is relevant for major: GE on first allied S/O 39 impulse don't have res on map and for URSS if GE DOW (no Leningrad MIL as exemple) or Italy if allied dow: no res on board on first enemy impulse (3 div invasion on factory hex have a 50% success 2d10 60% 1d10, fleet also have to be guarded or put in Trieste-Taranto). for most of minor only put a pressure to occupy res city on DOW impulse (UK on portugal as an example, landing on north with div in FE there is 1 GAR the first turn on capital, in CE 1 GAR and 1 MIL fd)



Once I took my time to dis-encrypt this , nice comments.

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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 9/11/2018 5:43:16 PM   
brian brian

 

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There is another more important rules change that makes attacking Denmark a little less relevant in 1939 - you must control one of Kiel, Oslo, or Copenhagen to move between the North Sea and the Baltic. So no more Surprise Impulse kamikaze French raids.

Germany does need to secure the place, eventually, and even relatively early as a bad roll on the Mining Norwegian Coast option can suddenly make the Baltic very interesting.


I am still looking forward to trying the new game and in particular the Battle of the Atlantic with all bells and whistles (revamped CoiF), but am still several months out from that aspiration.

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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 9/12/2018 7:24:23 AM   
Joseignacio


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Yes, it was mentioned in another thread (from which this one was born) by Sabre21.

I commented it in this thread in page one but didn't explain myself very well.

It is possible but only deserves it if you do it with the BB, instead of cruisers. Cruisers are much more valuable to the Allies as additional escorts under FF, with their own movements, which give an special flexibility to the CW.

And anyway they would have to cross in impulse 2 (1 of Allies), else Axis will take Denmark and it's over. Once there, besides, they would need to be activated each time with a naval move, when usually you´ll need to make land impulses, and they will not flip back at the end of the turn, so each of them can only be used once to activate a search.

The CV should not be sent, since it can be interned as a half built CV for USA or a transport. BTW, if I read it correctly, this option now needs to be done AFTER it is in Vichy and not BEFORE as it used to be.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 9/12/2018 8:40:02 AM >

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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 9/12/2018 3:53:25 PM   
brian brian

 

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No, the Allies can not enter the Baltic, at all, in CE/WiF8, while Denmark is neutral. A side must _control_ Copenhagen, Oslo, or Kiel to do it. Neutrals control their own hexes before they enter the war. It was a good Allied play in WiF7, but is now a Ghost-of-WiF-Past.

I am thinking the best time for Germany to improve it’s eventual defensive perimeter would be the first Snow impulse of 1940. Though if recon spots the Ark Royal on a long patrol cruise in the North Sea (in the 4 box), Germany might want to push the Go button immediately.

Though I felt messing with the Baltic was good play in WiF7, I never understood the intense interest in it, as in this thread. As Germany, I liked to shut down the Allied options on this nearly completely, quite simply, by sending an ARM to Frederikshavn, but then I don’t tend to cross the Belgian border in 1939 either. As the CW, I would delight in using Home Fleet to obliterate any German force less than an ARM in north Denmark, unless both Belgium and Italy were in the war. Unprepared German players get so upset by it they come close to using the word “cheat” over it, and it subtly throws them off their game.

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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 9/13/2018 7:34:04 AM   
Joseignacio


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

No, the Allies can not enter the Baltic, at all, in CE/WiF8, while Denmark is neutral. A side must _control_ Copenhagen, Oslo, or Kiel to do it. Neutrals control their own hexes before they enter the war. It was a good Allied play in WiF7, but is now a Ghost-of-WiF-Past.


True enough, Now it cannot, I let myself get carried away and spoke of Raw 7.0, the comment of Sabre21 was on MWIF and so 7.0. There were several discussions (again in the thread), for example the subs matter was on RAW 8.5 (but compared to RAW 7.0), and this one was on MWIF, so 7.0.


quote:

11.4.4. Naval movement restrictions

(...)
4. You can’t move naval units between the Baltic Sea and the North
Sea
(even via Frederikshavn or Kristiansand) if:

• no major power on your side controls any of Oslo (W0549),
Copenhagen (W0442) or Kiel, or

• one or more major powers you are at war with control the
other 2.


****************



quote:

(...) As the CW, I would delight in using Home Fleet to obliterate any German force less than an ARM in north Denmark, unless both Belgium and Italy were in the war. Unprepared German players get so upset by it they come close to using the word “cheat” over it, and it subtly throws them off their game.



I don't get it. How can you destroy a land German force in Denmark with a Fleet? Some unusual optional like carpet bombing? Or just deploying 4 or more CW corps?

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 9/13/2018 7:35:56 AM >

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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 9/13/2018 4:16:34 PM   
davidachamberlain

 

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I think what is meant is to do an invasion (or a couple).

The shore bombardment won't kill, by itself, but supporting an invasion on a cheap unit (which could be cut out of supply and disorganized) with another invasion in a clear, out of ZOC hex can get good or extremely good (with disorganized and out of supply) attack.

Dave

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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 9/14/2018 7:18:04 AM   
Joseignacio


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Makes sense, even though in the text that action seemed like a Fleet action, not a land combat.

It could have been (not a shore bombardment) but a carpet bombing with CVPs, it would be extremely weird but provided a high number of CVPs, and playing with this optional, possible. The CVP have only tactical factors, not strategic, but some rules versions or optionals (IIRW) allow equal tactical values to strategical for some purposes. I'll consult it with my mates and be back, it can be too hard to search all the rulesets just for this.

Edit: Checked, it's an optional within the 3D10 table.

It would be really weird but possible.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 9/14/2018 8:00:33 AM >

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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 9/14/2018 1:44:26 PM   
brian brian

 

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In RaW7, many a German player would be quite sloppy as they over-ran Denmark. They would generally send a unit to Frederikshavn, sure. As CW, my favorite thing to see there was the Tank Destroyer unit - costs 5 BP; commonly sent there due to its 6 movement points. Common to see a motorized division also, or maybe an entire MOT corps.

Also not common to see the Germans set up enough units on the Danish border to take every coastal hex; though Germany certainly has the units available to do that, many German players are greedy on the first turn, invading some 5 other countries (incl. France).

There is also an Allied riposte available for when Germany sets up several fast units on the Danish border - they can be targeted by Ground Strike on the Surprise Impulse.

Now, any time the Germans don’t control every coastal hex before the end-of-turn, the CW controls the hex. And they can then land the Gort HQ, and another corps with it, possibly including their MECH, and the infantry division - no ‘invasion’ required. These units can then attack whatever German force is holding Frederikshavn, and the CW land factors will be doubled by the plentiful Battleships of Home Fleet - my reference to ‘obliteration’, which is near automatic on anything short of a full corps. They might even be able to use the blitz table to R etreat a whole German corps right out of Frederikshavn. (Then serious raids of the Baltic can get rolling on turn 2 with a stack of four “R” class BBs as Churchill dreamed.)

All of that is why I send a true Panzer corps to Frederikshavn, as it is hardly needed in Poland. I have explained this Allied response on here many times; players with a weak rules background don’t understand some of the process here, and many ‘Panzer Heads’ who only ever play Germany and sometimes Russia for variety also don’t understand the capabilities of the Royal Navy. And such players cry Foul when this happens to them, and also claim it doesn’t matter, even when they are faced with losing 3 Swedish resources, a steady drip of Convoy Point losses, perhaps the beginning of the attritrion of the Kriegsmarine, and most seriously of all, the choice between a land impulse and a Combibed impulse. The Axis might also task the Italian NAV to help in the Baltic. When you are responding to an opponents move, you are losing. The Axis should not in any way be doing any response moves in 39/40.

Won’t Gort be needed in France? Possibly. My point is the Allies can also play high-risk, high-reward on the first turn. One bad weather roll and the German campaign in Belgium stops for an impulse, for one. If the Germans roll all good ‘Hitler Weather’ in S/O 39, Gort holding a coastal hex in France is going to make little difference. Only Wavell+Gort will really help then. And quite often the decisive turn in a “France First” is N/D, when the weather rolls become even more fraught. Meanwhile, the Royal Navy can sail, fire weapons, and chew gum at the same time - they can fairly easily shift Gort over to France; they have a variety of these things called Re-Org points, and clever ways to use them.


All of that is quite different in CE8; for example the CW now only has 3 TRS on the first turn, not 4, and Shore Bombardment is substantially weaker. So the CW player whol lands Gort + 2 MOT in France on the first Allied impulse of the game and thinks that is a successful application of their Prime Directive, well that is a little more true now.

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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 9/14/2018 4:54:02 PM   
rkr1958


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

In RaW7, many a German player would be quite sloppy as they over-ran Denmark. They would generally send a unit to Frederikshavn, sure. As CW, my favorite thing to see there was the Tank Destroyer unit - costs 5 BP; commonly sent there due to its 6 movement points. Common to see a motorized division also, or maybe an entire MOT corps.

Also not common to see the Germans set up enough units on the Danish border to take every coastal hex; though Germany certainly has the units available to do that, many German players are greedy on the first turn, invading some 5 other countries (incl. France).

There is also an Allied riposte available for when Germany sets up several fast units on the Danish border - they can be targeted by Ground Strike on the Surprise Impulse.

Now, any time the Germans don’t control every coastal hex before the end-of-turn, the CW controls the hex. And they can then land the Gort HQ, and another corps with it, possibly including their MECH, and the infantry division - no ‘invasion’ required. These units can then attack whatever German force is holding Frederikshavn, and the CW land factors will be doubled by the plentiful Battleships of Home Fleet - my reference to ‘obliteration’, which is near automatic on anything short of a full corps. They might even be able to use the blitz table to R etreat a whole German corps right out of Frederikshavn. (Then serious raids of the Baltic can get rolling on turn 2 with a stack of four “R” class BBs as Churchill dreamed.)

All of that is why I send a true Panzer corps to Frederikshavn, as it is hardly needed in Poland. I have explained this Allied response on here many times; players with a weak rules background don’t understand some of the process here, and many ‘Panzer Heads’ who only ever play Germany and sometimes Russia for variety also don’t understand the capabilities of the Royal Navy. And such players cry Foul when this happens to them, and also claim it doesn’t matter, even when they are faced with losing 3 Swedish resources, a steady drip of Convoy Point losses, perhaps the beginning of the attritrion of the Kriegsmarine, and most seriously of all, the choice between a land impulse and a Combibed impulse. The Axis might also task the Italian NAV to help in the Baltic. When you are responding to an opponents move, you are losing. The Axis should not in any way be doing any response moves in 39/40.

Won’t Gort be needed in France? Possibly. My point is the Allies can also play high-risk, high-reward on the first turn. One bad weather roll and the German campaign in Belgium stops for an impulse, for one. If the Germans roll all good ‘Hitler Weather’ in S/O 39, Gort holding a coastal hex in France is going to make little difference. Only Wavell+Gort will really help then. And quite often the decisive turn in a “France First” is N/D, when the weather rolls become even more fraught. Meanwhile, the Royal Navy can sail, fire weapons, and chew gum at the same time - they can fairly easily shift Gort over to France; they have a variety of these things called Re-Org points, and clever ways to use them.


All of that is quite different in CE8; for example the CW now only has 3 TRS on the first turn, not 4, and Shore Bombardment is substantially weaker. So the CW player whol lands Gort + 2 MOT in France on the first Allied impulse of the game and thinks that is a successful application of their Prime Directive, well that is a little more true now.
Brian, I'm intrigued and curious. Would the below invasion of Denmark be sufficient to keep you as, the CW, out of Denmark? If not, what would be your strategy for getting in?

P.S. By the way, this question is really open to anyone who'd wish to take a crack at it. I'm just curious if the invasion below is solid enough to keep the allies from intervening in Denmark.





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by rkr1958 -- 9/14/2018 5:06:54 PM >


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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 9/14/2018 5:47:15 PM   
paulderynck


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The only way that position can happen is if playing with the RR Movement Bonus - a truly awful and unrealistic optional rule that is heavily axis-favorable.

If playing that then the axis player should be a total Noob who is unlikely to appreciate that he can even make those moves.

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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 9/14/2018 6:09:45 PM   
rkr1958


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

The only way that position can happen is if playing with the RR Movement Bonus - a truly awful and unrealistic optional rule that is heavily axis-favorable.
If you don't mind, I'd like to hear your thoughts on why you believe this optional rule is, "truly awful and unrealistic". I most often play with the optional but if it's not a good one to use then I need to stop using it.


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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 9/14/2018 9:14:31 PM   
paulderynck


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1. It is very attacker favorable, allowing such things as blitz advance into forest and staying face-up if doing so along a RR. Storm and rain (i.e mud) were especially difficult for armored formations in WWII (likely still are) and yet down the narrow corridor of a RR line its no worries to move full movement with all your corps? Really?
2. And the German Army used huge numbers of horse drawn vehicles and guns in WWII and those aren't too viable or fast moving on a RR in storm or rain either.
3. Except for the Smolensk to Moscow highway, the roads in Russia virtually ceased to exist in poor weather in Russia and yet this effect can be ignored along a RR. That's the main point for a lack of realism.
4. The examples in the picture Jose posted are probably the most egregious offenders. How is it that a ferry crossing becomes easier (i.e. less time consuming) because you are moving along a RR?
5. So why axis-favorable when both sides can do it? Because the Axis attacks for the first half of the game and Russia can be knocked out or virtually neutered by the time the allies are ready to go on the offensive.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 9/14/2018 9:16:48 PM >


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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 9/14/2018 11:43:01 PM   
rkr1958


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

1. It is very attacker favorable, allowing such things as blitz advance into forest and staying face-up if doing so along a RR. Storm and rain (i.e mud) were especially difficult for armored formations in WWII (likely still are) and yet down the narrow corridor of a RR line its no worries to move full movement with all your corps? Really?
2. And the German Army used huge numbers of horse drawn vehicles and guns in WWII and those aren't too viable or fast moving on a RR in storm or rain either.
3. Except for the Smolensk to Moscow highway, the roads in Russia virtually ceased to exist in poor weather in Russia and yet this effect can be ignored along a RR. That's the main point for a lack of realism.
4. The examples in the picture Jose posted are probably the most egregious offenders. How is it that a ferry crossing becomes easier (i.e. less time consuming) because you are moving along a RR?
5. So why axis-favorable when both sides can do it? Because the Axis attacks for the first half of the game and Russia can be knocked out or virtually neutered by the time the allies are ready to go on the offensive.
Very compelling argument ... I'll not longer be using that rule.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
4. The examples in the picture Jose posted are probably the most egregious offenders. How is it that a ferry crossing becomes easier (i.e. less time consuming) because you are moving along a RR?
Which picture?


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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 9/15/2018 2:50:28 AM   
paulderynck


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Post #48. The Divs cannot take all the hexes marked as German-controlled without RR movement.

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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 9/15/2018 3:24:34 AM   
rkr1958


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Post #48. The Divs cannot take all the hexes marked as German-controlled without RR movement.
OK, actually I posted that picture. I thought you'd might be referring to something in another thread.


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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 9/15/2018 6:42:23 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

1. It is very attacker favorable, allowing such things as blitz advance into forest and staying face-up if doing so along a RR. Storm and rain (i.e mud) were especially difficult for armored formations in WWII (likely still are) and yet down the narrow corridor of a RR line its no worries to move full movement with all your corps? Really?
2. And the German Army used huge numbers of horse drawn vehicles and guns in WWII and those aren't too viable or fast moving on a RR in storm or rain either.
3. Except for the Smolensk to Moscow highway, the roads in Russia virtually ceased to exist in poor weather in Russia and yet this effect can be ignored along a RR. That's the main point for a lack of realism.
4. The examples in the picture Jose posted are probably the most egregious offenders. How is it that a ferry crossing becomes easier (i.e. less time consuming) because you are moving along a RR?
5. So why axis-favorable when both sides can do it? Because the Axis attacks for the first half of the game and Russia can be knocked out or virtually neutered by the time the allies are ready to go on the offensive.
warspite1

Thanks for the explanation. I don't use that rule, although not really thought too hard about why. Now I know why I'll never use it


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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 55
RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 9/15/2018 10:48:09 AM   
Centuur


Posts: 7879
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

1. It is very attacker favorable, allowing such things as blitz advance into forest and staying face-up if doing so along a RR. Storm and rain (i.e mud) were especially difficult for armored formations in WWII (likely still are) and yet down the narrow corridor of a RR line its no worries to move full movement with all your corps? Really?
2. And the German Army used huge numbers of horse drawn vehicles and guns in WWII and those aren't too viable or fast moving on a RR in storm or rain either.
3. Except for the Smolensk to Moscow highway, the roads in Russia virtually ceased to exist in poor weather in Russia and yet this effect can be ignored along a RR. That's the main point for a lack of realism.
4. The examples in the picture Jose posted are probably the most egregious offenders. How is it that a ferry crossing becomes easier (i.e. less time consuming) because you are moving along a RR?
5. So why axis-favorable when both sides can do it? Because the Axis attacks for the first half of the game and Russia can be knocked out or virtually neutered by the time the allies are ready to go on the offensive.


If one looks at the way things were historically, you can't deny that the attacker (both Germany and the Soviets did) gained more ground in mud along railroad lines than they did on other area's of the front. This effect is not as large as it happens to be in the optional rule which is present in the board game, but it's there historically.
Personally, I would like to see that optional rule changed and make it that the first hex entered along a railline during movement or after combat cost 1 MP less in rain, storm or blizzard.

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Peter

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 56
RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 9/15/2018 6:36:52 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 7503
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Post #48. The Divs cannot take all the hexes marked as German-controlled without RR movement.
OK, actually I posted that picture. I thought you'd might be referring to something in another thread.


Sorry for the false attribution.

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Paul

(in reply to rkr1958)
Post #: 57
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