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Submarine warfare in WIF CE

 
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Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/20/2018 8:05:31 AM   
Joseignacio


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I bring it here, to redirect the discussion from another thread, where it was Off topic.

quote:

quote:



ORIGINAL: Sabre21

So far my experiences with Netplay have been pretty bad. I haven't been able to get past turn 5 of the Global war game yet due to a myriad of bugs. I've had the game since release and the guy I game with (Bloodybill), both of us have pretty much given up trying to do Netplay. I'm not into the solitaire aspect of the game but Bloodybill does like it.


I've been playing WiF from day one and still have the original first version along with 5 and 7. I recently received the Collector's Edition Deluxe a few weeks ago and 3 of us are about to embark on a Global War 39 campaign starting next week.

There are tons of changes to Raw 8, not just in the ruleset, but on the counters and with the map. Personally I think this is the best version yet. I really like what they have done with offensive points and how the oil rules have changed. A lot of changes to minor country order's of battle now with the inclusion of reserve militia units in places like Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium, Iran, Iraq and many others. It's going to be interesting seeing how this new version plays out.




I would agree that it's the best version and changes have been extremely good.

What doesn't mean there are no setbacks as the really stupid sub warfare values, which makes it difficult anytime and impossible after 1941. A real nonsense.
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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/20/2018 8:07:28 AM   
Joseignacio


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gw15

We are using raw8 in a Vassal game but I'm not playing the Axis.
Paul - are subs way under powered after 41?


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

I don't think so. One notable change for the better is subs do not lose a factor each in surface combat. If the ASW values seem high then perhaps the table of their values (see 11.5.10 in the rules) versus the kits used is being interpreted incorrectly. After all, no matter which kits you use, BBs are worth nothing. Also the first version of the rules - since erratisized - had CAs worth 4 each in '43 and thereafter when playing with CLs. This was a typo - they should be 1 each.

Also the criticism may be true if the CL option is used. If you're naval nut and want to play with ALLL! the ships then you may want to use CLs but personally I think the CL option should not be used as it is way too allied-friendly.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21


I'm using all the options for naval in the game I'm about to start and CoiF option 7 caps light cruiser ASW at 2 each from 41 on. CV's and Ca's remain at 1 each for the war. You also can add in naval factors on planes aboard any carriers and each 5 CP's get 1 ASW factor now.


ASW ships are now integrated into a few convoy chits that now consist of 3 cp's and either a scs or cve group. There's not too many of those though and they don't start coming available until 41.


You can also interdict most subs now with sub-hunter aircraft forcing subs to either stop or fight thru a sea zone. These don't come available until 42 and are few and far between.


From the sub perspective, a single naval move now allows a major power at war to move all his subs from as many ports that he chooses and with the new way of having a land/sea action using offensive points (no more chits) opens up all new kinds of strategies.





(in reply to Joseignacio)
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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/20/2018 8:08:33 AM   
Joseignacio


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio


It's difficult for me to explain why, because the 8.xxx rules are changing all the times and it difficult to be updated.

What I say comes from a recent experience, I just finished a game with 8.107 (?) where I was GE. After '41, the values go insane: 2 each SCS not BB (like in older rulesets), 1 each 5 convoys (way too much for game balance), 1 per CV, 1 per air ot sea factor with the right climate.

When you consider all this in a game, you'll experience how sub warfare is kaputt.

First you have to find the enemy (as always) and the enemy not find you.

Let's say you are in box 2 or 3 depending on the sea you are attacking and then you can have a 0 or -1 because of wheather, plus the number of convoys divided by 5. Let's say you have a 30 - 40% probabilities to find the enemy. The higher boxes escorts may be in box 3 or 4 modified by cliimate. Let's call it a modified 3.

you'd have a 60 or 70% not to find, the convoys but in this case there would be a 30% that the escorts finded you. You also have a 30-40% to find the convoys and then there will be a 30-40% that the enemy finds you.

This means the probabiliy that you¡:

- don't find anything but the upper boxes escorts find you, it is (let's convert the 30-40% into a 35%) : 65%*30% = 19.5%. This is called complete desaster, since it's pretty usual that there is at least one battleship in the upper levels, ans the combat is Surface , no Sub. Plus they have usually a lower surprise roll.

- don't find anything and they don't find you: 65% * 70%= 45.5% You are not f*cked but you spend a/some naval move/s for nothing.

- find them but you are found by upper boxes escorts: 35%*30% = 10.5% Disaster as well, still found by upper escorts including some BB usually with Surprise on their side. And it's a Surface combat, not Subs.

-find the convoys and you are not found. Only favourable scenario: 35% * 70% = 24.5%.

This means 30% (19.55+10.5%) disaster, no conv sunk, several subs damaged or sunk. 45% you activate for nothing. 25% some posibilities at a high cost, see what follows:

Even in this last case (probability under 1:4) if there is any plane (NAV, CV) or several of them (and the weather is not storm or blizzard) you still have to spend some (variable) surprise points to change from Naval air combat. If you don't, it will be air to sea which means you cannot attack convoys. Disastrous, you get hits and do nothing.

If you are lucky enogh to have enough surprise to be able to use surprise to attack convoys in spite of the planes,...

... you still need to use it to avoid complete destruction of your subs: the combat value of the escorts is cumulative and it's not strange to find like 2 or 3 points because of 6+ convoys or 10+ convoys, plus like 6-10 from 4-5 escorts plus possibly one for a CV (maybe light CV), plus planes (CV +NAV).

It means you WILL most probably have a roll for a wolf pack sunk (at least)in exchange for one convoy pack or maybe 1 X + 1D.


Real, Real Nonsense.

Note: BB worth 0 only if using an optional, although in this case I guess you don't get CLs or get fewer.

Note 2: The statistics worsen if there is a plane or CV in the upper level escort and they can fly (climate) by a 10%, affecting the rest of the calculations.


(in reply to Joseignacio)
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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/20/2018 8:09:32 AM   
Joseignacio


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Much of what you say is true, but has always been true since at least RAW7. Nothing new here. However, the latest CE rules have been stable for months now and BBs are not worth any ASW anytime.

Also the stats you give are essentially for always attacking when moving second. There are times to attack and times not to attack.





quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius

Jose, would you mind if I quote or link your post over in the BoardGameGeek forums? There are a couple guys there (Bruce Jurin, Randy Gabor) who insist that subs are stronger in CE than in RAW7, and I'm curious to see how they'd respond to your post. I'm still learning CE -- I'm in S/O '39 of my first solo Global War -- so I don't know enough to reply myself.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

You can do it freely. I will comment Paul's post later, but basically it's true that most of what I said was there earlier, but it was an unbalanced sub warfare earlier and the small enworsements just made it a little bit worse, which is simply unbearable.


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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/20/2018 5:36:30 PM   
Grotius


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Thanks for posting this new thread, Jose.

Edit: I hope to do some playtesting of this myself in the coming days so I can learn more about it.

< Message edited by Grotius -- 8/21/2018 2:31:56 AM >


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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/20/2018 7:59:32 PM   
Bibs

 

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How many subs did you build? One of the things I always note is that WIF German players never put the emphasis on the building subs that the Germans really did but expect the same results.

German sub builds
1942 (237)
1943 (284)
1944 (229)

at 20 subs per counter that is 38 subs built between 1942-1944. I have never seen a German player build half that in a WIF game. They are too busy building mech and planes.

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John Bibler

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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/20/2018 8:05:06 PM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bibs

How many subs did you build? One of the things I always note is that WIF German players never put the emphasis on the building subs that the Germans really did but expect the same results.

German sub builds
1942 (237)
1943 (284)
1944 (229)

at 20 subs per counter that is 38 subs built between 1942-1944. I have never seen a German player build half that in a WIF game. They are too busy building mech and planes.


True, but even than, the calculations done by José seems to be valid. And what you also have to take into account is the high number of merchantmen lost by the Allies during those years. Personally, I believe the strengthening of the Allies comes too early in the game. During early 1942 the losses on the Allied merchantmen were very high and I've never seen a game where during the first turns of 1942 the number of convoy points lost did equal the historical outcome, even with 15 SUB's present on the Euroaxis side.

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Peter

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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/20/2018 9:56:51 PM   
Bibs

 

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German U-Boat losses
1942 - 87
1943 - 244
1944 - 249

Maybe the shift in ASW values shouldn't happen until 1942. In the beginning 1945 the Germans had 10 more U-Boats than at the end of 1942 despite building over 500 of them.

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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/20/2018 11:38:11 PM   
Courtenay


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U-boat crewmen must have been very brave individuals!

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I thought I knew how to play this game....

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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/21/2018 12:47:10 AM   
Grotius


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U-boat crews had some of the worst casualty rates in WW2, no?

< Message edited by Grotius -- 8/21/2018 2:32:20 AM >


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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/21/2018 5:38:49 AM   
Sabre21


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We finished setting up the Global War 39 game for 3 of us, we are starting to roll the dice tomorrow.


To add to the above, there have been several map changes and added rules that affect ship/sub movement.

For instance, no more running French cruisers into the Baltic to disrupt German convoys, at least not as easy as before. The Allies have to control either Oslo, Copenhagen, or Kiel in order to get to the Baltic, so no more freebie sneak attacks.

Several militia units have now been added to the game too, Denmark gets one as soon as war is declared, so unless the Germans get that unit knocked out on the attacking impulse, in come the French cruisers. Oh, and unless one of those 3 are allied controlled, no getting the Polish sea units out of the Baltic either.


You also can't use the English channel unless you control London, not even subs can sneak thru so they have to go around. So until France is taken, sub warfare is limited for the Germans...but then it always has been pretty much for the first 5 or 6 turns and unless the Germans build a decent sub fleet it never will be.

Another map change is in the Med. La Spezia no longer borders the western med. In fact, no major Italian port does and subs can be air attacked in minor ports and can't evade. So the Italians have one lower box now in St Vincent sea zone and in most cases, for those that can get there will be a 1 box, 2 if you're real lucky on your sub picks.

Ships in Flames now incorporates the CliF and Convoy in Flames, so playing with that ruleset makes 3 convoys equal to one ship point. So when a ship gets destroyed, there goes 3 convoy points. So a strong sub wolfpack (say 5 or 6 good subs) could devastate a convoy, it's just choosing to build it which most folks really don't.


I guess I'll find out for sure how the sub warfare pans out over the next few months. We plan on playing a couple times a week with me as the CW, USA, and Nat Chinese. The other experienced played is running all the Axis, and he does like his subs. The 3rd of our group has had a few weeks to digest the rules, and while he isn't new to board wargaming, this is his first go at WiF. So he is playing the Rooskies, French, and Red Chinese. This outta be a hoot. :)


< Message edited by Sabre21 -- 8/21/2018 5:43:31 AM >


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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/21/2018 6:59:39 AM   
Joseignacio


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bibs

How many subs did you build? One of the things I always note is that WIF German players never put the emphasis on the building subs that the Germans really did but expect the same results.

German sub builds
1942 (237)
1943 (284)
1944 (229)

at 20 subs per counter that is 38 subs built between 1942-1944. I have never seen a German player build half that in a WIF game. They are too busy building mech and planes.



In the past, I usually built every sub possible. The reason being they were cheap and coulf somehow fight surface as well so they were like a cruiser as well. This has improved with the improvement of the sub's combat value.

However, even using them moderately, mainly in the impulses where land moves/attacks were not advisable, etc... I could not even replace my losses, because you dont't get so many of them (depending of counter sheets used as well) and they take 1 year to build.

They don't represent 20 units, from RAW (and it would seem it's very moderate):

quote:

Each SUB unit represents 50-60 (SiF option 5: 25-30) submarines.

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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/21/2018 7:11:26 AM   
Joseignacio


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

We finished setting up the Global War 39 game for 3 of us, we are starting to roll the dice tomorrow.


To add to the above, there have been several map changes and added rules that affect ship/sub movement.

For instance, no more running French cruisers into the Baltic to disrupt German convoys, at least not as easy as before. The Allies have to control either Oslo, Copenhagen, or Kiel in order to get to the Baltic, so no more freebie sneak attacks.


Holy sh*t. You could not do that from the earliest versions. As soon as the Axis controls Denmark (usually in turn 1) you cannot get to the Baltic and if there is somebody there already most probably will die (for sure if the GE player is experienced). I mean, from the 1st or 2nd impuls of the game there will be no french ships going anywhere. They would need to go in at the Allies' 1st immpulse (when you are usually busy doing something else) and stay always at sea with diminishing probabilitiues of finding nything till they finally die because of no return port (and with no resupply, I guess, so the flipped units stay flipped).

IMO they would serve much better to the british as Free France escorts. Remember having BBs abroad is bad for Vichy rolls but not the Cruisers...

RAW 7:

quote:

4. You can’t move naval units between the Baltic Sea and the North Sea (even via Fredrikshavn or Kristiansand) if major powers you are at war with control at least 2 of Oslo, Copenhagen and Kiel.


quote:

Several militia units have now been added to the game too, Denmark gets one as soon as war is declared, so unless the Germans get that unit knocked out on the attacking impulse, in come the French cruisers. Oh, and unless one of those 3 are allied controlled, no getting the Polish sea units out of the Baltic either.


Don't know if we made a mistake or what but I didn't get that militia in the game we are starting, I cannot see the counter now. Maybe it's not a RES? 'Cause then it might go to the Construction Circle, for example.


quote:

You also can't use the English channel unless you control London, not even subs can sneak thru so they have to go around. So until France is taken, sub warfare is limited for the Germans...but then it always has been pretty much for the first 5 or 6 turns and unless the Germans build a decent sub fleet it never will be.


Again, you could not do this from many versions ago, even RAW7 (used for MWIF)

quote:

You can’t move naval units between the North Sea and the Bay of Biscay (even via Brest or Plymouth) if a major power you are at war with controls London.


quote:

Another map change is in the Med. La Spezia no longer borders the western med. In fact, no major Italian port does and subs can be air attacked in minor ports and can't evade. So the Italians have one lower box now in St Vincent sea zone and in most cases, for those that can get there will be a 1 box, 2 if you're real lucky on your sub picks.


Didn't notice that but I guess you can use Genoa's Major port or minors in Corsica (early navals could only disrupt the subs in minor ports most of the times, supposing they have the range to reach).


quote:

Ships in Flames now incorporates the CliF and Convoy in Flames, so playing with that ruleset makes 3 convoys equal to one ship point. So when a ship gets destroyed, there goes 3 convoy points. So a strong sub wolfpack (say 5 or 6 good subs) could devastate a convoy, it's just choosing to build it which most folks really don't.


In RAW 7 it was 5 convoys equal to 1 ship unit. Unless using expansions, then 2, but many more convoys in the game.

The CW player has enough conv from the beginning. That, added to the amount of Danish, Netherlands, ..., conv, plus later the american Conv makes them almost invulnerable no matter the unprobable finding roll of 5 or 6 wolfpacks(unprobable number as well, unless combined subs of IT and GE), supposedly unescorted. Unles the CW player is very Naive or very very unlucky, he'll have no problems no matter what the subs do.






< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 8/21/2018 9:44:50 AM >

(in reply to Sabre21)
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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/21/2018 8:04:20 AM   
Joseignacio


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Much of what you say is true, but has always been true since at least RAW7. Nothing new here. However, the latest CE rules have been stable for months now and BBs are not worth any ASW anytime.


In this, you are right, I didn't have the WIF CE rules at the time and I thought they were the same in that to the RAW 8.85 that I had at hand. In that one:
quote:

ASW Unit
1 each SCS (CLiF option 6: except BBs) included prior to 1941
2 each SCS (CLiF option 6: except BBs) included from Jan/Feb 1941 to Nov/Dec 1942
3 each SCS (CLiF option 6: except BBs) included from Jan/Feb 1943 onwards
1 every (full) 5 convoy points included
1 each CV included (0 if playing CLiF option 6)
1 each (modified) air-to-sea factor (including those on un-damaged CVs) included during fine, rain or snow



quote:

Also the stats you give are essentially for always attacking when moving second. There are times to attack and times not to attack.


Well, remember that you get the initiative 1 time out of 2 roughly. And you can only find (usually) units unescorted in impulse 1, it means 50% of the times the first impulse if you can spare a naval move.

Or never if the CW player set escort on box 1 as well the previous turn (or /and box 4 for example), which is pretty usual for experienced players in the North Sea, when there are enough escorts and a couple of BB free...

Besides, as you say but for other reasons, there are times to attack and times not to attack, it means while you are fighting for France or especially USSR you cannot usually spare naval moves to move or activate, that would imply naval action or at least combined, which is not always possible (in fine weather usually there is somebody attacking -at first GE , then USSR - in winter the USSR winterized units attack and GE needs reorganize lines... That limitates as well the value of subs in the game.

You could spend off points but that would make even more expensive these senseless attacks.

Basically the only reasonable task for subs in WIF CE is to try to interdict/sink TRS and AMPH moves from CW and USA at a high cost. Not bad but too few for what you'd expect from wolfpacks and for game balance.


< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 8/21/2018 8:16:32 AM >

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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/21/2018 3:01:32 PM   
Sabre21


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I'm used to playing with the Mwif ruleset over the last few years and I thought it was based on Raw 7. Evidently not from what you indicate above.

It is pretty easy in MWiF to send a few French cruisers into the Baltic on impulse 2 of turn 1, I've done it several times. Sure they eventually die, but if you do it right they can be a major pain for a couple turns forcing the Germans to react to you. You can't do that at all now unless the allies control Copenhagen. Also I've been able to move German subs into BoB thru the channel. I've done it as has my opponent.

As far as those new militias..yep, they are reserve units and they are present even in many of the minor countries now. Poland gets 2, Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium, and Norway each get 1 just to name a few.

As for Italy, as I mentioned there are NO Italian Major ports in the western Med nor Eastern med. There are a couple minor ports in Sicily, one in each of those sea zones that could be used but they are easily bombed from Malta.


Also if you are playing with Ships in Flames and the CoiF options, then ASW for light cruisers maxes out at 2 and does not increase to 3 each. The cp's are 3 per ship using these options, not 5.


There are more convoys for everyone, but then there are more requirements too. The 2 resources and 1 oil that the US must send to Italy with a return BP along with various changes to the sea zones, especially in the central and eastern pacific has added the need for more convoys. We also play with the tanker option so it makes figuring out the needs for both cp and tankers a bit more precarious.


The German player can now select a naval and a land action using a few offensive points and move all of his subs to sea without impacting his plans on land. Being able to buy 5 offensive points at a time rather than 15 in the old chit type no longer breaks the bank either. All kinds of new possibilities with this new system.




< Message edited by Sabre21 -- 8/21/2018 3:18:26 PM >


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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/21/2018 8:21:39 PM   
gw15


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sub warfare - I'm playing the Allies in a netplay game with Peter. He sent out 6/7 German subs and 2/3 Italians into the Mid Atlantic on the first impulse. First search: Axis 1, Allies 10. Killed like 6 convoys. I contemplated but decided to stay. Axis rolled a 2, allies rolled a 10. More convoys destroyed. I aborted and sent remaining convoys through the faearos gap where he had 1 sub in the 2 box in rain. Axis rolled a 1, Allies rolled a 9. Lost more convoys. Then in the regular search in Faroes the Axis rolled another 1 and allies rolled an 8.
14 Allied convoys sunk disrupting the whole supply chain to British Is.

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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/21/2018 8:46:35 PM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gw15

sub warfare - I'm playing the Allies in a netplay game with Peter. He sent out 6/7 German subs and 2/3 Italians into the Mid Atlantic on the first impulse. First search: Axis 1, Allies 10. Killed like 6 convoys. I contemplated but decided to stay. Axis rolled a 2, allies rolled a 10. More convoys destroyed. I aborted and sent remaining convoys through the faearos gap where he had 1 sub in the 2 box in rain. Axis rolled a 1, Allies rolled a 9. Lost more convoys. Then in the regular search in Faroes the Axis rolled another 1 and allies rolled an 8.
14 Allied convoys sunk disrupting the whole supply chain to British Is.



Jealous, are you? I just got plain lucky to win initiative too, so I could sail out my ships and SUB's before the CW could strengthen the convoy escorts...
No, just good old fashioned luck. And remember: I killed the Soviet airforce in 1941 with high rolls, but didn't got any good result on a whole lot of +10 attacks on cities in the USSR... No hexes taken...
Now I kill a lot of convoys and I probably get to pay for it somehow...

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RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/22/2018 7:23:00 AM   
Joseignacio


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

I'm used to playing with the Mwif ruleset over the last few years and I thought it was based on Raw 7. Evidently not from what you indicate above.

It is pretty easy in MWiF to send a few French cruisers into the Baltic on impulse 2 of turn 1, I've done it several times. Sure they eventually die, but if you do it right they can be a major pain for a couple turns forcing the Germans to react to you. You can't do that at all now unless the allies control Copenhagen. Also I've been able to move German subs into BoB thru the channel. I've done it as has my opponent.


Maybe I didn't explaim myself well, I meant you couldn't do it except in the only case that you mention, to do it in impulse 2 (1st allied impulse). Afterwards GE takes Copenhagen and it cannot be done. Unless you need to wait for another later impulse if you have very very bad luck with weather.

However, as you say, once there there is no retreat, which means after a maximum of 3 turns, with decreasing convoy finding opportunities they are dead. I find much more useful to save these escorts for FF on escort operations, with their own actions, where they can be much more help.


Of course the GE use to send a couple of rusty BB to escort
them when they have a naval move free.


quote:

As far as those new militias..yep, they are reserve units and they are present even in many of the minor countries now. Poland gets 2, Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium, and Norway each get 1 just to name a few.


I know there are a number of reserves, including Minors, but you mentioned DK gets now a Militia in Copenhague, but didn't specify it was a reserve, that's why I asked because in our last game with WIF CE. me playing GE(and in this one with CW) that militia we didn't deploy. It seemed it was not a Reserve. Maybe we got it wrong, couldn't tell, because I don't own a WIF CE, we were playing with a friend's and he is on holiday so I cannot check.

MWIF follows RAW7 except for specific changes that Steve chose because of playabiity. I can not see why he should have changed the transit to BoB so it would look like a bug.


quote:

As for Italy, as I mentioned there are NO Italian Major ports in the western Med nor Eastern med. There are a couple minor ports in Sicily, one in each of those sea zones that could be used but they are easily bombed from Malta.


Well, there are for sure major ports in Eastern Med and I guess in Western Med; again I don't have a map here to check it but it seems to me very difficult to believe that Genoa and La Specia are no longer Major ports. And I played GE + IT some months ago and didn't notice that. Maybe somebody can confirm?

As for other ports, there is Corsica, which is not so easy to bomb from Malta, and anyway, for the earlier turns the Navs are lowly many times in range, the others in power, so in case they reach they will only abort a sub pack in most cases.


quote:


The German player can now select a naval and a land action using a few offensive points and move all of his subs to sea without impacting his plans on land. Being able to buy 5 offensive points at a time rather than 15 in the old chit type no longer breaks the bank either. All kinds of new possibilities with this new system.


Yeah, but as I tried to prove with my calculations, even with the cheap price of the subs you may lose more build points than you sink. Besides, every sub sunk means paying BPO to rebuild if you decide to, and 1 year of time, while Conv are gotten for free with FF, NE, DK, BE, GR, YU ... invasions, plus the arrival of the spare US ones.

In this circumstances to spend 1 more BP each time you want to move your subs or start a search makes it even less rewarding. Less point to have subs if it needs to be this way. Remeber that 3 BP equal to a INF corps and 2 to a GARR or MIL, and the early turns production is like 10 BP or less for GE. 1, 2, 3 BPs spent in this, is a lot.

The USA - IT trade doesn't spend so many, and it's half and half of a 4? seas of 3 conv. Besides, it usually lasts less than a year, sometimes only a couple of turns, depending on IT declaration of war on CW, FR or both, or stayng neutral.



< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 8/22/2018 9:45:35 AM >

(in reply to Sabre21)
Post #: 18
RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/22/2018 7:31:37 AM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 1838
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From: Madrid, Spain
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gw15

sub warfare - I'm playing the Allies in a netplay game with Peter. He sent out 6/7 German subs and 2/3 Italians into the Mid Atlantic on the first impulse. First search: Axis 1, Allies 10. Killed like 6 convoys. I contemplated but decided to stay. Axis rolled a 2, allies rolled a 10. More convoys destroyed. I aborted and sent remaining convoys through the faearos gap where he had 1 sub in the 2 box in rain. Axis rolled a 1, Allies rolled a 9. Lost more convoys. Then in the regular search in Faroes the Axis rolled another 1 and allies rolled an 8.
14 Allied convoys sunk disrupting the whole supply chain to British Is.



I have had such rolls in the board game, unbelievable. In my previous game, in a naval search my opponent got 3 consecutive "1"s, whose combined probability is 1:1.000, however this is extreme bad luck as you can see.

Once I had more or less what you just got and more, so I finally was limited to like 9 BP production all turns (UK+CAN, we were playing European Theatre) and had to surrender, I had not enough points even to replace escort damages and convs.

But this is like he got the lottery. Very Very, Very exceptional.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 8/22/2018 7:32:45 AM >

(in reply to gw15)
Post #: 19
RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/22/2018 3:03:31 PM   
gw15


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Yea Peter! You won the lottery!!!

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 20
RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/22/2018 10:55:25 PM   
brian brian

 

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I believe the timing of setting up RES units is what changes in CE, more so than the force pools, though those do change here and there too. Check the Reserves rule carefully.

(in reply to gw15)
Post #: 21
RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/23/2018 10:26:30 AM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 1838
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From: Madrid, Spain
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Yes, there are changes in the deployment but I believe this is not the issue. Now I remember which was the problem with the DK reserve, GE declares war, invades and takes Copenhagen before the Danish impulse so that militia never arrives because Copenhagen is taken before the Allied impulse. I guess this needs to be changed in the rules or the Copenhaguen Militia&Reserve is worth for nothing (if it is a reserve as I believe now).

quote:

19.4 Minor country units
19.4.1. Setting up

When a minor country not currently aligned to any major power
aligns with you, set up its initial units immediately. You must set up
in hexes controlled by that minor. At least half a minor country’s
initial units must set up in its home country.

Set up each of the minor’s land and aircraft units
(PiF option 4: including
any Planes in Flames units) that has an earlier year on its back. If it has the
current year on its back put it
(PiF option 46: and its pilot) on the production
circle to arrive as a reinforcement next turn
. For setting up reserves see 9.7.


quote:

9.7 Calling out the reserves

Each major power and many minor countries have reserve units that
may now be called out provided they are at war with a major power.
During your impulse you may call out reserves of such major powers
and minor countries you control that have ‘Res’ on the back of their
counter. If a reserve unit has a particular major power named on its
back, you may only call it out while you are at war with that major
power.

Example: It’s Anna’s impulse. She may now call out her Moscow
MIL provided the USSR and Germany (‘Ge’) are at war.

You don’t have to call out all eligible reserves at your first
opportunity. Any you don’t call out are available while you are at war
with a major power.

When you call out your reserves put your eligible reserve (and any MIL,
see 13.7.7) units that have previously been removed from the game back
into your force pools. Then move your eligible reserve units (and any MIL
there) from the reserve pool to the map (DiF option 52: except Guards
Banner units, see 22.4). in the same manner as reinforcements (see 4.2)
except that they are set up face-down. From now on treat these reserves just
like any other units.


I can see it's a 2-2 militia in the #24 countersheet but I cannot see it's back online, to see whether it's a RES as well.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 8/23/2018 10:40:28 AM >

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 22
RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/24/2018 1:38:18 PM   
gw15


Posts: 700
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Continuing with the ineffectiveness of subs in Raw7.
In my other netplay game with Steve. He moved 14(?) subs out of Brest because I was going to overrun them and attacked my convoys. He rolled six 1's in a row on searches while I rolled from 5's to 10's. Bad impulse for the Allies.
Since it is 1943 I did have ASW and took some of them out.
Anyway, my recent experience is the subs can be effective if one gets lucky like winning the lottery.
Subs should really be used as a threat to keep the Allies "honest" with their naval moves, to intercept lone targets of opportunity as they move through the sea zones, intercept aborts, and to use them with bad weather on the first impulse if the Axis move first. Don't use them like surface ships.
I find the sub warfare in MWIF (Raw7) exciting and depressing depending on which side you play. They only cost 2 BP.

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 23
RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/24/2018 2:31:10 PM   
Joseignacio


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From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline
Well, the usual in case there is a strong presence of subs in one or two seas and you cannot defend them adequately for some reason or the number of subs is THAT huge, is to retreat the remaining conv at the first possibility and reroute them through other areas.

After the earlier turns the CW player should have enough convoys in reserve (originally from allied countries that became british) that this should not be a problem.

Anyway if luck is that bad you are going to have a bad time...

(in reply to gw15)
Post #: 24
RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/24/2018 11:23:18 PM   
RickInVA

 

Posts: 142
Joined: 4/27/2011
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So I think there are at least two different questions here:

1) WiF sub combat compared to historical success
2) Is WiF sub combat "cost effective"

To answer Question 1 I looked at the historical record. Using fairly round numbers U-boats sunk the following tonnage:

1940 2.2 million, highest 2 month turn total 650 thousand.
1941 2.2 million, highest turn 630 thousand.
1942 6.3 million, highest turn 1.3 million.
1943 2.6 million, highest turn 950 thousand.

The Commonwealth started the war with, based on my quick research, some 34 million tons of merchant shipping. In the new CE they start with 82 CPs, making each CP worth 414 thousand tons of shipping. Using 400 thousand as a rounded number, German subs need to sink the following number of CPs to meet history (rounding down due to my earlier rounding down):

1940 5CP
1941 5CP
1942 15CP
1943 6CP

As in CE convoys are sunk in 3s, to be historical Germany needs to get 2 "X" results in 6 turns in 1940, 1941, and 1943, and 5 in 6 turns in 1942.

U-boat losses were:

1940 24
1941 35
1942 87
1943 244

Based on earlier discussion that would be about 1, 1-2, 3-4, and 8-10 WiF sub units.

Based on my personal experience I feel Germany sinks st least the historical amount of shipping, and probably looses a few more subs in 1940, 41 and 42, and a few less in 1943.

To Question 2, is it worth it? Well, historically this effort did not bring the British to their knees. Numbers I have read indicate that GB military output was pretty steady through the war. Food and fuel were sometime very tight, but war materiel production didn't seem to suffer. Now I don't know if Harry designed the game to imply that GB's actual wartime production is "Full in game production" of 22 factories, or if his idea was that GB would always be a bit short, so historical production was the equivalent of 20, or 18 GB factories. But it does seem evident that the German player will have to go beyond sinking ~30 CPs to seriously weaken the Commonwealth war effort.

To Jose's point, early there are minor country CPs to take the place of any sunk CPs. But add in all the losses, and the need to convoy lent US resources and BPs to both GB and SU, and pretty soon GB will need to build CPs. How many is enough? I don't know. What does the group think?

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 25
RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/27/2018 8:17:51 AM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 1838
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline
I like games to be realistic. We are playing a "simulation " of the WWII, no a fantasy game, yes.

That said, the game is a What-if. It allows the Japanese taking of Australia or the USA liberation of Poland, so no need to sink exacly the same number of convoys and produce or lose the same amount of subs.

But what is more important for me is that the game is playable, that it's features make sense. Having the subs almost without a meaning from 1941 simply makes you not build most of them, and use the existing ones only to interdict. For me this is a lack in the game,and of course in the game balance which is a basic.

quote:

To Jose's point, early there are minor country CPs to take the place of any sunk CPs. But add in all the losses, and the need to convoy lent US resources and BPs to both GB and SU, and pretty soon GB will need to build CPs. How many is enough? I don't know. What does the group think?


Losses. As i mentioned earlier, if the UK player is witty in allocating the Danish, Netherlands, Belgium, Greek, Yugoslavian, French (as FF) convoys (and defend them when the ones in the Home Country escape), together with the really really scarce probabilities to do sth to the CW convoys with AXIS subs, I believe they can play all the game without needing to buy even one extra convoy, unless there is something extra like sending BP to USSR or getting resources from USA, and depending on luck even in these cases.

Of course this means not taking some of the resources that come bordering Africa and forgetting the Med as well. You can get enough from America, + ¿4? from Africa (SA + FF) and 1 from Asia (only).

Besides, there is the handicap that you cannot activate the subs (and sometimes even deploy them) if you need to have land actions. Of course you may spend 1 Off to do so, but if you try several times, for example 3 impulses every turn, you are paying the price of 1 INF or 1/2 ARM just for activating, making the balance cost/profit of these attacks even worse.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 8/27/2018 8:39:53 AM >

(in reply to RickInVA)
Post #: 26
RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/27/2018 6:19:56 PM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 345
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

Another map change is in the Med. La Spezia no longer borders the western med.




I still have to unpack my CE, so I didn't notice this. However, I find it to be a very strange design choice. Basically, you can go around the peninsula and enter the Eastern Med just like that, but you have to spend a movement point to enter... uhm... the very sea area where the port is situated? IIUC the thing, this is not smart

For the CE the designers made strange choices. Guderian is still not elite (OK, this is a pet peeve of mine); but neither the DAK is. I wonder how many unexploded ordinance I'll stumble into, buried in the new rulebook, once we start to play.

Side note: on BGG someone posted a version of the rulebook which omits all the optional rules - even the holy cows (ships in flames, mechanised movement, oil etc.). Basically, you play "more vanilla than the vanilla". I'm curious to play such a game because, IMHO, it will then give more context to each optional rule when you decide to use it.

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

(in reply to Sabre21)
Post #: 27
RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/28/2018 12:41:28 AM   
JagWars


Posts: 118
Joined: 7/1/2000
From: Eureka, Missouri, USA
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

Another map change is in the Med. La Spezia no longer borders the western med. In fact, no major Italian port does and subs can be air attacked in minor ports and can't evade. So the Italians have one lower box now in St Vincent sea zone and in most cases, for those that can get there will be a 1 box, 2 if you're real lucky on your sub picks.

Historically, Axis subs did not leave the Mediterranean. The Germans did sneak a few into the Med from the Atlantic by shutting off their engines and allowing the current to pull them through.
I was hoping that this would be corrected in RAW 8, but alias, it appears not.

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 28
RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/28/2018 2:06:53 AM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 2810
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

I wonder how many unexploded ordinance I'll stumble into, buried in the new rulebook, once we start to play.



Answer: a lot. Read every rule carefully. Naval movement still makes my head spin.



quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

Side note: on BGG someone posted a version of the rulebook which omits all the optional rules - even the holy cows (ships in flames, mechanised movement, oil etc.). Basically, you play "more vanilla than the vanilla". I'm curious to play such a game because, IMHO, it will then give more context to each optional rule when you decide to use it.



The typography of the new rule book, when viewed in full color, makes it very, very easy to skip over any or all optional rules.

(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 29
RE: Submarine warfare in WIF CE - 8/28/2018 2:19:27 AM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 2810
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JagWars

Historically, Axis subs did not leave the Mediterranean. The Germans did sneak a few into the Med from the Atlantic by shutting off their engines and allowing the current to pull them through.
I was hoping that this would be corrected in RAW 8, but alias, it appears not.


Not quite - Italy operated in the Atlantic - from Wikipedia:

Soon after June 1940 a submarine force was dispatched to the Atlantic, honouring a commitment to Germany to help in the Atlantic campaign. Code-named BETASOM, this force was stationed at Bordeaux in occupied France. 32 boats in total served in the Atlantic, equaling the German numbers at the time. Half of them later returned to the Mediterranean, or were converted to transports, for operations to Far East. The Italian submarines operating in the Atlantic overall sank 109 allied merchant ships totalling 593,864 tons.[6]


(Sunk 2 Convoy Points? 400K tons guessed above seems a little high to me). Italy sent one SUB counter to France, it returned to Italy later. They lost about 3 SUBs attacking strongly escorted Royal Navy targets in the Med.


Germany sent in 60 U-boats / 2 WiF SUBs. Only one came back out. 9 were sunk passing Gibraltar. Results., from Wikipedia:

The Germans sank 95 Allied merchant ships totalling 449,206 tons and 24 Royal Navy warships including two carriers, one battleship, four cruisers and 12 destroyers at the cost of 62 U-boats. Noteworthy successes were the sinking of HMS Barham, Ark Royal, Eagle and Penelope.

(in reply to JagWars)
Post #: 30
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