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RE: War in the East Official Update 1.11.03 - 8/6/2018 2:58:14 PM   
chaos45

 

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the AA guns work for both sides....so its been a buff for both and yes I have reported in PM to morveal earlier today in fact....example 120 soviet level bombers, no german fighters 60 shot down by only 100x 88mm german AA.

So flak is even more massively effective for germans than soviets because germans have higher EXP.

like I said in a another post today---many changes may be seen as a nerf to one side but actually nerf both which is then a net loss for the soviets usually since german units, leadership, and everything is so much better in the early game.

Play soviets against a good german panzer pusher and tell me the game is fair? when they are driving way faster than historical and you cant get factories out in time or even put up a defense before they reach critical areas.

(in reply to mrblonde1)
Post #: 31
RE: War in the East Official Update 1.11.03 - 8/7/2018 9:21:36 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


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@Chaos:
JFYI, Axis OOB is quiate a bit lower now, you can look at both initial OOB between 1.11.01 or individual categories (German inf, arm+mot, HQs) and each area has lost a few %.
Another Axis nerf.





< Message edited by EwaldvonKleist -- 8/7/2018 9:22:09 PM >


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Post #: 32
RE: War in the East Official Update 1.11.03 - 8/7/2018 9:43:42 PM   
xhoel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

@Chaos:
JFYI, Axis OOB is quiate a bit lower now, you can look at both initial OOB between 1.11.01 or individual categories (German inf, arm+mot, HQs) and each area has lost a few %.
Another Axis nerf.






+1

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Post #: 33
RE: War in the East Official Update 1.11.03 - 8/7/2018 10:01:21 PM   
chaos45

 

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Im not a spreadsheet counter, but I know soviets have had numbers nerfed as well over the last several patches, starting with the massive HQ numbers nerf several patches ago.


Not having tracked exact soviet numbers each patch though I cant really comment- but the sapper nerf from what used to be almost 1k men a unit to less than 400 is more a CV nerf than any small 1% reduction in germans….as it effectively removes something like 1,000 combat squads(100,000 men) from the soviet OOB or about 100 CV in total not to mention the construction capability. As it disincentives soviet players to not even bother building them now.

So with that in mind not such a small nerf after all was it?

That coupled with experience gain having been disabled has probably reduced Soviet CV by at least 10-20% in the early game as just a rough estimate. Which is also my guess as to why moscow falls almost every game now and it didnt used to.

Im going to step back now, and let the patch team decide what they want to do, but I think the results have shown their is a balance issue when players are well matched.

(in reply to xhoel)
Post #: 34
RE: War in the East Official Update 1.11.03 - 8/8/2018 4:49:59 AM   
mrblonde1

 

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Can you give an example of a game with well matched players that shows tha balance issue?

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Post #: 35
RE: War in the East Official Update 1.11.03 - 8/9/2018 4:09:54 PM   
Aufklaerungs


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quote:

Also just noticed Sapper regiments downgrade to a much smaller Sapper BN in OCT 1941....when was that change....as that basically means any sapper regiments you build early on are a waste of AP now. Since they downgrade to a unit 1/3rd the size in OCT 1941.


This dog don't hunt. This topic has been covered in minutia ad nauseam. Suggest you search & review the many, many posts and replies from moderators and players that have gone into the weeds on Soviet sapper unit revisions based on strength, organization, capabilities and limitations relative to the historic 41-42 timeline that have regularly appeared on this forum for at least the past year.

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Post #: 36
RE: War in the East Official Update 1.11.03 - 8/9/2018 4:30:41 PM   
chaos45

 

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mrblonde- you will prolly be seeing some soon....plus Ive been chatting a lot with players via discord and PM....its become very apparent that when German players use certain tactics the game is virtually an auto soviet loss right now in 1941. These issues have been in a game for over a year now and this patch did nothing to fix them.

As to soviet sappers- yes it was discussed, and I argued against it then to. Frankly real world OOB/ToE went out the window a long time ago when trying to make this game fully playable. Yes the OOB is somewhat close to actual units but the soviet army is much smaller in 1941/42 than historical when do the numbers and that was with the sapper regiments adding to the soviet units numbers...which now wont be build due to being worthless.

Its like I told the patch team...okay if soviets used them in Brigades then give the soviets Sapper brigades as support units...not on map units they are still completely useless. The game mechanics is what makes what was a real life units worthless in the game so as a patch team/game designer you have to find a way to make the units work with the game system that is in use. Another work around would be to allow attachements to soviet divisions instead of just corps...then I could stack it with 3 sapper battalions and get some use out of them...its about how the game works.


They added a new construction BDE at some point--an utterly useless unit in the game. It wont be able to get trained and even contribute to construction values until 1942....and well its the same cost as a railroad BDE...so people will only build RR BDEs.....its called game design and having things work within the game design correctly.

I know I like to speak up and im rather blunt at times, but its very obvious the game has some issues at the moment and most were due to some poor patch decisions over the last year or two.


(in reply to Aufklaerungs)
Post #: 37
RE: War in the East Official Update 1.11.03 - 8/9/2018 8:19:18 PM   
thedoctorking


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In a game that went pretty well for me as the USSR, on the 5-7-1942 turn I have a deployed total of 6,906,120 compared with a historical total of a little under 6 million at that point. Germans have 4,025,930 (plus the usual suspects of a million or so for the Axis allies). This was a historical 1941, with the difference that the Germans captured Leningrad but did not get into the Donbass (they did capture Kharkov but not the Stalino region). They got nowhere close to Moscow. This game started under 1.11.00 and finished up under 1.11.01.

Contrawise, in a game that went quite badly for the Soviets, on the 12-11-1941 turn we have 4,547,199 deployed as against 3,527,256 Germans. In this game, the Germans captured both Leningrad and Moscow and swallowed up huge numbers of Soviet divisions. This game also started under 1.11.00 and is still under way.

All in all, this doesn't seem like a remarkably smaller Soviet army than historically. So I'm not sure what posters in this thread meant by saying that the Red Army was smaller than historical. Perhaps in terms of combat effectiveness? Or later? I have only ever played the USSR through the first winter - everybody quits on me!

(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 38
RE: War in the East Official Update 1.11.03 - 8/9/2018 8:52:34 PM   
chaos45

 

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neither side takes historical losses for the most part.....with that in mind the soviet army should be many times larger. However the Soviets have a reduced replacement rate compared to historical. Which is why you can't afford to take historical losses as the soviets and stay in the game.

Its a very weird game compared to historical where the soviet players has to try and save every single division they can in the first 15 turns or most likely lose the game....unlike historical where they frequently lose entire armies.

That why I discuss the army sizes. As well most players wont simply wave attack the Germans turn after turn burning up men like Stavka/Stalin did in 1941/42 (Although Hardluck is trying this tactic in his newest game lol)....However to give the germans a much greater than historical chance of winning the game the german army is kept with all of its intrinsic bonuses and the soviet army is given a reduced manpower replacement rate meaning the soviets end up desperate for men against a competent German player...a German player that does not reach Stalino is not doing well at all as the south is extremely easy for the germans to take in current version of the game.

< Message edited by chaos45 -- 8/9/2018 8:54:08 PM >

(in reply to thedoctorking)
Post #: 39
RE: War in the East Official Update 1.11.03 - 8/10/2018 6:35:11 PM   
thedoctorking


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That's a really good point, chaos 45, I hadn't thought of it in that way. Obviously, I took much fewer losses as the USSR in the first game (though perhaps not in the second). The Red Army enlisted 29,500,000 men during the course of the war in addition to the nearly 5,000,000 who were in service on 22 June 1941. There's 202 turns from 22 June 1941 to 8 May 1945, that works out to an average of about 149,000 a turn.

In game terms, the USSR has 3936 manpower centers at start. I estimate that historically they lost about 600 of those. I don't know what proportion of the manpower of captured cities is saved through evacuation to the east, but in my game that had the most historical 1941, I have 3009 manpower centers in spring 1942. The current manpower production multipliers by year are 50 (1941), 40 (42), 35 (43), 30 (44), and 15 (45). There are 29 turns in 1941, 52 each in 1942-44, and 19 in 1945. So based on 3000 manpower centers, the USSR in game terms will produce 4,350,000 men in 1941, 6,240,000 in 1942, 5,460,000 in 1943, 4,680,000 in 1944, and 855,000 in 1945. Actually, there would probably be some manpower centers rejoining the homeland of world socialism (TM) as the Red Army advances, but we'll take this as a conservative estimate. That's a total of 21,585,000.

Running through the list of reinforcement units, there's about 1,100,000 men in those units, though at least some of them (about 300,000) are transfers from the Siberian front who would have been counted among the original 5,000,000. There's still about 7 million Soviet soldiers who just vanished into thin air.

I suspect an uncharacteristically inefficient intervention by Thanos.

(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 40
RE: War in the East Official Update 1.11.03 - 8/11/2018 1:47:45 AM   
56ajax


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I read somewhere, probably in one of those books titled like 'Why the Allies Won' that in terms of birth rates, age breakdown, manpower resources etc the worst possible time to invade the USSR was the 1940s. And the Soviets knew this large pool of potential soldiers was there.

I would have thought that any official Soviet figures would be a minimum. Also the Soviets were well known for rounding up any able bodied locals, giving them a weapon of some description and ordering them to the West.


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Post #: 41
RE: War in the East Official Update 1.11.03 - 8/12/2018 10:42:33 PM   
thedoctorking


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Yes, the estimate of 29,500,000 includes an estimated half a million recruits who were never registered officially because they got killed before any record was made of their presence. This was especially true of people living in places pocketed by the Axis or cities where the civilian population was required to remain and support Red Army defenses.

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Post #: 42
RE: War in the East Official Update 1.11.03 - 8/12/2018 10:43:42 PM   
thedoctorking


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Anyway, I concur with Chaos45 in calling for an increase in Soviet manpower production. I'd say it needs to be at least 10% higher to be historically accurate. I'd say the earlier multiples were probably accurate.

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Post #: 43
RE: War in the East Official Update 1.11.03 - 8/14/2018 12:13:53 AM   
GamesaurusRex


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Chaos, you only ever list the Axis nerfs/Soviet buffs.
What about buffed Soviet AA guns? If you deattach them for cheap from cities when Axis is close you have quite nice SUs that weren't there before. Soviet gun numbers in recent versions are as high as never before. Not to mention that 1941 air supply has been nerfed because air bases nearby give no longer support when nearby.

What about fixed bug with cosntruction units not helping digging? Massively icreased HQBU cost and reducing rail modifier and minimally possible rail modifier?
From my exp so far the so called nerf of Soviet air force is not really one, exp gain seems as before so far, will wait how things develop over next turns in game vs. S-T though.

"Just learn the opening and learn how to manage fuel logistics" will not be sufficient IMO, a victory in 1941 requires a combination of many more factors.
Also, designing an optimised opening is not easy. If the Axis player invests 10 hours and more into developing an opening, the Soviet player has to answer with a similar commitment.
I can really recommend you to try and play the Axis side under a version with nerfed logistics vs. a strong Soviet player.

In addition, the key metric should be if and when Soviets can get to Berlin. From AARs Soviet players seem to be able to survive the fall of Leningrad/Moscow and take over the initiative.


Ewald... your Picture perfectly suits your fandom...

"AA guns"? ROFLMAO !
Neither the AA nor the entire Russian airforce is of any practical importance in this game as simulated and you know it. CV and MP on the ground is all that matters.

"Fixed bug of construction" ? More LOL !
You mean the one where they removed nearly all the engineering value from the Russian side for 1941 ?
Or are you referring to the "fixed" civilian help that maybe isn't fixed even yet ? Besides, we both know that Level 4 or 5 fortifications are still useless when garrisoned with "0" CV units.

(Pardon the rant... but you are really grasping at straws to throw at chaos45's comments.

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 44
RE: War in the East Official Update 1.11.03 - 8/14/2018 11:47:36 AM   
xhoel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex


quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Chaos, you only ever list the Axis nerfs/Soviet buffs.
What about buffed Soviet AA guns? If you deattach them for cheap from cities when Axis is close you have quite nice SUs that weren't there before. Soviet gun numbers in recent versions are as high as never before. Not to mention that 1941 air supply has been nerfed because air bases nearby give no longer support when nearby.

What about fixed bug with cosntruction units not helping digging? Massively icreased HQBU cost and reducing rail modifier and minimally possible rail modifier?
From my exp so far the so called nerf of Soviet air force is not really one, exp gain seems as before so far, will wait how things develop over next turns in game vs. S-T though.

"Just learn the opening and learn how to manage fuel logistics" will not be sufficient IMO, a victory in 1941 requires a combination of many more factors.
Also, designing an optimised opening is not easy. If the Axis player invests 10 hours and more into developing an opening, the Soviet player has to answer with a similar commitment.
I can really recommend you to try and play the Axis side under a version with nerfed logistics vs. a strong Soviet player.

In addition, the key metric should be if and when Soviets can get to Berlin. From AARs Soviet players seem to be able to survive the fall of Leningrad/Moscow and take over the initiative.


Ewald... your Picture perfectly suits your fandom...

"AA guns"? ROFLMAO !
Neither the AA nor the entire Russian airforce is of any practical importance in this game as simulated and you know it. CV and MP on the ground is all that matters.

"Fixed bug of construction" ? More LOL !
You mean the one where they removed nearly all the engineering value from the Russian side for 1941 ?
Or are you referring to the "fixed" civilian help that maybe isn't fixed even yet ? Besides, we both know that Level 4 or 5 fortifications are still useless when garrisoned with "0" CV units.

(Pardon the rant... but you are really grasping at straws to throw at chaos45's comments.



To me it seems that EvK is simply pointing out some things that chaos doesn't list.

Contrary to what you have stated, AA guns have been buffed a lot in the latest patch for both sides (chaos himself has accepted that). So your argument, well, isn't an argument. The Soviet airforce is enough to keep the LW in check and after 1943 to spam bomb everything you feel like as the Soviets. If you don't like playing the air, that's your personal choice, has nothing to do with the VVS ''not having any practical importance''.

Again, you are cherrypicking what you like. Why didn't you comment on the increased HQ BuildUp costs or the rail modifier?

Then don't garrison important cities with 0 CV units. There, problem fixed. Fort levels do their job when employed correctly.

The idea here is to provide the devs with a viewpoint from the Axis side, since the viewpoint that chaos45 has given is that of the Soviet side.

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Post #: 45
RE: War in the East Official Update 1.11.03 - 8/22/2018 12:38:03 AM   
GamesaurusRex


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No offense xhoel... but you missed the point. Ground CV is what takes and holds ground in this game...
and that is the ONLY determinant factor for either the Germans or the Russians in reaching their objectives.

If the Russians have sufficient CV to prevent German penetrations.
Pockets will not be achieved and the German will get run over in the long run. (Superior German MP does nothing if it hits a brick wall of CV.)

If the Russians do not have sufficient CV... they will die in pockets before the first year is out. (and actually in this game's current state you will have
to make adjustments to the initial Russian morale settings to get a game in which the Russian can do anything other than beat a hasty retreat in 1941.)

In either case, it is the CV that dictates the outcome. The air forces are merely window dressing.

< Message edited by GamesaurusRex -- 8/22/2018 12:45:33 AM >

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Post #: 46
RE: War in the East Official Update 1.11.03 - 8/22/2018 12:53:25 AM   
SparkleyTits

 

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I would have to say it's not all about the CV shown onmap at all I would say the modified CV is the most important in the case you are trying to show ultimately which is dictated by ALOT more than what is shown on the stacks onmap

Have you ever seen those battles with 600 CV vs 600 CV and you can still reliably win the battles or when you get big battles with 3:1 odds and easy wins?
Well that's because of efficienct use of SU and the air arm
Another huge factor is a units supply which some people can miss as if you fight a unit with low ammo you can effectively ensure it's near half as effective as the CV dictates on the map

There's more but these are generally the most impactful

If you just look at the CV on map then you are going to have a hard time winning many battles against someone who understands these concepts

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)
Post #: 47
RE: War in the East Official Update 1.11.03 - 8/22/2018 2:32:01 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


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@GamesaurusRex: First of all, I have played both sides equally often and with equal enjoyment in both WitE and WitE 2 so far. If you look at my opponents wanted threads, I leave the opponent choose the side and often also of the version. It was me who has reported the construction unit bug (SUs not helping with construction), and I have also left comments on Axis supply techniques I find questionable. I also lobbied to increase the limits for fort construction lvl 2 from 3 to 4hexagons and for one from 20 to 25 as compared tot he first plans, also helping the Soviets. So calling me Axis fan boy is simply wrong.

Not all, but many of the most vocal people about Soviet nerfs/Axis buffs hardly ever play the Axis side.

Re Soviet air force, it is NOT insignificant, neither its fighter arm nor its bomber arm. just read AARs on it. Of course the ground war is more important, but it has an influence.
Re Soviet AA guns: The AA units form nice support units, which fire during the combat phase.

I agree that it is CV what matters, but what S-T says influences CV considerably.

Really, play Axis vs. a very good+ Soviet player and design not messy super lvov pocket on your own, suddenly things don't look easy for the Axis anymore.


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Post #: 48
RE: War in the East Official Update 1.11.03 - 9/14/2018 11:41:10 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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Small interface error. The City screen only says ASSIGN support but as you can also build AA units at a City it should say ASSIGN/FORM.

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Post #: 49
RE: War in the East Official Update 1.11.03 - 10/2/2018 11:01:08 PM   
M60A3TTS


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One thing that REALLY needs to get fixed is this aircraft group range.

Get rid of this hex conversion ratio ASAP. Nobody is going to understand this when they first play the game under these conditions. Why was it put there in the first place?

It simply needs to be 0=no fly, 1=1 hex range, 2=2 hex range, etc. and * = maximum range.

(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 50
RE: War in the East Official Update 1.11.03 - 10/11/2018 7:35:41 PM   
xhoel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

One thing that REALLY needs to get fixed is this aircraft group range.

Get rid of this hex conversion ratio ASAP. Nobody is going to understand this when they first play the game under these conditions. Why was it put there in the first place?

It simply needs to be 0=no fly, 1=1 hex range, 2=2 hex range, etc. and * = maximum range.


+1

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Post #: 51
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