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Paratroopers - 6/12/2018 9:43:18 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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I believe para trooping is far to easy. I just had a 10 str German attempt a paratroop on Paris which had a 10 str army (5 str French HQ attached). The 10 str lv 1 French fighter intercepted and the paratrooper had a German escort. The German paratrooper went from 10 to 6 and attacked a HQ. If a para trooper lands on an occupied city (etc) the loss should be much more significant and it certainly shouldn't be able to attack after.

my 2 cents

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RE: Paratroopers - 6/12/2018 11:52:46 PM   
KorutZelva

 

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I'm fine with them but I'd make them way more expensive. Essentially, they are an air and land unit combined. So if you get them massacred in Crete, you have to think twice if its worth replacing them.

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RE: Paratroopers - 6/15/2018 3:39:07 AM   
GiveWarAchance

 

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People tend to underestimate paratroopers in drops.

In the liberation campaign, allied paratroopers dropping into defended German territory were greatly feared by the Germans who did their best to defend with AA and infantry but could never stop British and American paradrops who were inevitably able to shoot up the defenders and secure their landing zones.

The terrible disaster of paratroops on Crete was unusual cause the allies knew from ULTRA exactly where the drops would occur and the small areas could be heavily defended by effective British and Aussie troops plus the allies had no scruples about shooting at paratroops while they were helpless in the air and then gave them no mercy once landed either much unlike the German handling of allied paratroops, and the German leader Student made the error of spreading out the paratroops over all the heavily defended areas on Crete instead of concentrating them on only a couple of objectives.

Market Garden is an example of paratroops being very effective in defended urban areas. The Germans were astonished at how effective a battle the paratroops put up despite being completely isolated in Arnhem. The Germans asked the POWs how they acquired such advanced combat experience but were told it was the first battle for them.

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RE: Paratroopers - 6/15/2018 4:05:50 AM   
Christolos


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Hi GiveWarAchance,

I agree with you in that the power of paradrops can be underestimated. So perhaps it is modeled well enough in the context of a Strategic level game like SC3.

Having had relatives that survived the German invasion of Crete, I can tell you that many an angered villager took matters into their own hands, wielding a pitchfork in hand to engage the helpless German airborne troops as they landed. From my understanding, they were helpless because they landed with a minimum of weapons, as per: http://www.combatreform.org/hptll.htm ...

C

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RE: Paratroopers - 6/15/2018 5:14:39 AM   
GiveWarAchance

 

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Christolos, I read about those scary stories of hapless paratroops being chopped up by civilians and their weapons were in crates on other chutes. I read the Battle of Crete book by Antony Beevor who doesn't hide his anti-German bias but I think his Crete book was a very good detailed account of the disaster. I wish Germany had left Crete alone.

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RE: Paratroopers - 6/15/2018 5:25:38 AM   
GiveWarAchance

 

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That website about the Crete lessons is interesting. So their main point is how the German disaster actually helped the British a lot to form their own Airborne troops while Hitler pretty much shut down the German paratroop program. I wonder if Crete hadn't have happened if the allied airborne would have been a lot weaker? The US airborne seem to have been very strong in combat.

The Germans used paratroops on Sicily to drop by the bridge to help hold up the British advance north so that was a small but successful German paradrop that happened post-Crete.

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RE: Paratroopers - 6/15/2018 9:55:41 PM   
Christolos


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I read HISTORY OF THE SECOND WORLD WAR VOL 2 No.3-HOW CRETE WAS LOST ( https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HISTORY-OF-THE-SECOND-WORLD-WAR-VOL-2-No-3-HOW-CRETE-WAS-LOST/223010725276?hash=item33ec799d9c:g:plgAAOSwpCpZssEH ) many years ago and found it to be quite interesting.

It gives a perspective of the battle from both viewpoints, the German viewpoint and the Allied viewpoint.
Apparently the German paratroops also lacked tactical experience, particularly with their junior officers.

In the end, and to paraphrase from what I read, the Germans did not draw the right conclusion from the experiences in Crete. They saw only the losses, but not the reasons for the losses or the possibilities for the future.

C

< Message edited by Christolos -- 6/15/2018 9:56:47 PM >


_____________________________

“Excellence is never an accident. It is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, and intelligent execution; it represents the wise choice of many alternatives - choice, not chance, determines your destiny.”

-Aristotle-

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RE: Paratroopers - 6/16/2018 8:14:52 AM   
GiveWarAchance

 

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That book sounds very interesting. I like hearing perspectives from both sides.

It makes sense what you said about the Germans not learning from the disaster, but also what if the British had not had the massive advantage of ULTRA? I wonder if Crete had had only a moderate defense in areas uncertain of invasion instead of exactly where the Germans planned their drops, that operation would have gone much better. I read that Freyberg tried to avoid tipping off the Germans about their perfect intelligence on the German operation by deliberately placing some defenses in unnecessary places like along the coast so the disaster would have been even more horrific if Freyberg had gone 100% in defending the German objectives. Maybe there was a spot of benevolence in Freyberg that didn't want to fully slaughter all the hapless German soldiers on the way. It's amazing how badly that operation went if you include the utter disaster of the naval invasion too when their helpless transports were shot to bits with no ability to escape or defend. The British suffered some damage to their ships as well later on during the evacuation. Some of the ships damaged not long afterwards went to fight the Japanese like the incredibly brave Perth cruiser.

< Message edited by GiveWarAchance -- 6/16/2018 8:17:18 AM >

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RE: Paratroopers - 6/16/2018 11:11:04 AM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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I guess I'm ok with the 35-40% casualty when landing on an occupied city (seems light) but the action points should reduce to 0. In general the paratroop losses seem light, many times no reduction at all.

Increasing the cost is a good idea KZ.

Does anyone know the probabilities when escorted & intercepted with fighters? I can't seem to find them



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You see things; and you say “Why?” But I dream things that never were; and I say “Why not?”

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RE: Paratroopers - 6/16/2018 4:01:45 PM   
GiveWarAchance

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

I guess I'm ok with the 35-40% casualty when landing on an occupied city (seems light) but the action points should reduce to 0. In general the paratroop losses seem light, many times no reduction at all.

Increasing the cost is a good idea KZ.

Does anyone know the probabilities when escorted & intercepted with fighters? I can't seem to find them




I tried to takeover Malta once by dropping a 12 strength paratroop onto it but the AA unit there evaporated my paratroops instantly and entirely. I thought the game automatically evaporates them if the target hex has an enemy unit on it. Am I wrong? I know I should use bombers & ships to eliminate the Malta AA gun now but that was in one of my first games.

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RE: Paratroopers - 6/16/2018 4:27:48 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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The paratrooper will land if there is an open (land) hex adjacent to the target. My point is it then shouldn't be able to attack.

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You see things; and you say “Why?” But I dream things that never were; and I say “Why not?”

George Bernard Shaw

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RE: Paratroopers - 6/17/2018 7:26:35 PM   
GiveWarAchance

 

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Oh okay Malta doesn't have adjacent hex.
I think para attacking after landing is realistic cause they always do cause they will get overrun if they do nothing after landing for a week or month (what is 1 turn time?).
Para also includes gliders as well as chutes and they always attacked right away like the famous Pegasus Bridge attack and the German drop on the strong Belgium fort Ebam-Emanuel or something like that which required them to succeed in less than an hour after landing which is much less than 1 turn time in game. And in Market Garden they sped very quickly towards bridge objectives before Germans could get there.
From what I've seen in all games, it is usual to demand unrealistic tweeks to games to win easier in MP but nerfing units makes the game uninteresting for casual players which how I feel anyways like I would never use paras if they were paralyzed after landing for a turn.
But if people really want to nerf paras cause they are winning in MP too much, I think maybe to suppress them a bit after landing to represent their scattered condition and other landing mishaps but that might make them too easier to destroy cause usually historically the enemy didn't have assets close enough to overrun paras before they could organize except on Crete cause the allies had the ULTRA intel as a cheat.
Sorry if this is annoying. I'm one of those annoying types who prefers historical accuracy over game balance cause I very seldom play multiplayer cause I don't know other gamers.

< Message edited by GiveWarAchance -- 6/17/2018 7:31:15 PM >

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RE: Paratroopers - 6/17/2018 8:16:37 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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Im fine with paratroopers attacking when they land uncontested. If paratroopers were to try to land in Paris which had a large entrenched army occupying it I doubt they would be able to muster a counterattack when they land.

I am also a fan of historical possibilities.

< Message edited by PvtBenjamin -- 6/17/2018 8:17:46 PM >


_____________________________

You see things; and you say “Why?” But I dream things that never were; and I say “Why not?”

George Bernard Shaw

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