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Patrol Arcs - How to Setup - 6/5/2018 5:33:55 PM   
Werewolf13

 

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Trying to learn WITP-AE.

Got to Patrol Arcs. Selected the Coral Sea scenario. Went to Port Moresby and selected the PBY squadron. Set Patrol arc to 30 degrees to 210 to cover where I thought the IJN would show up. Selected show arcs.

What is shown on the map is 3 tiny arcs that run from about 30 degrees down to around 100 or so. That's not what I set. Read the manual - date on it is 2009. Talks about patrol arcs in a large paragraph - even more confused.

What am I missing here. All I want to do is tell the squadron where to concentrate its search.

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RE: Patrol Arcs - How to Setup - 6/5/2018 5:53:01 PM   
DConn

 

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Things to consider:
1. How many planes are flying in the squadron? For example, if you have 12 planes and set a 50% search, 6 planes are flying.
2. Each plan that is flying can search a 10 degree arc in the morning, and a 10 degree arc in the afternoon. The colors of the arcs tell you whether it is morning or afternoon.
3. You will begin your search at the point selected, and then search the arcs either clockwise or counterclockwise, depending on which you have selected, until you run out of planes committed to search. If you have more planes than search arcs, they will go back to the beginning arc and search again.
4. Remember you need to set the range as well.



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RE: Patrol Arcs - How to Setup - 6/5/2018 6:31:31 PM   
MakeeLearn

 

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Interface Addendum.pdf in C:\Matrix Games\War in the Pacific Admiral's Edition\Manuals

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2306955&mpage=1&key=Search%2CArcs�

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/searchpro.asp?phrase=+Search+Arcs+&author=&forumid=528&topicreply=both&message=body&timeframe=%3E&timefilter=0&language=single&top=300&criteria=AND&minRank=0&sortMethod=r&submitbutton=+OK+

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RE: Patrol Arcs - How to Setup - 6/5/2018 6:36:08 PM   
HansBolter


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Don't waste your time on patrol arcs, especially if you don't have full squadrons to fill out every sliver of the arc setting.

Not setting arcs means you are searching 360 degrees, no slivers ever get missed.



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RE: Patrol Arcs - How to Setup - 6/5/2018 7:03:06 PM   
Chickenboy


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Doesn't not setting patrol arcs mean that a patrol arc is randomly chosen? My understanding is that *any* allocation of naval search will get the first 4-5 hexes as 'freebies', but beyond that an order (whether randomly generated or by setting arcs) must be established to search that arc. If that's the case, then one really should reduce the areas searched in order to increase the likelihood of flying that arc. In the case of PM in the Coral Sea scenario, he probably doesn't need to search the arc 270-360.

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RE: Patrol Arcs - How to Setup - 6/5/2018 8:28:33 PM   
Werewolf13

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DConn

Things to consider:
1. How many planes are flying in the squadron? For example, if you have 12 planes and set a 50% search, 6 planes are flying.
2. Each plan that is flying can search a 10 degree arc in the morning, and a 10 degree arc in the afternoon. The colors of the arcs tell you whether it is morning or afternoon.
3. You will begin your search at the point selected, and then search the arcs either clockwise or counterclockwise, depending on which you have selected, until you run out of planes committed to search. If you have more planes than search arcs, they will go back to the beginning arc and search again.
4. Remember you need to set the range as well.




Thankyou - sqdn in question only has 6 planes at the beginning of the scenario I believe - with a 30 to 210 degree search I believe what I was seeing probably resulted from too few aircraft to do the job.

Didn't see a way to set the range of the search but I'll look again.

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RE: Patrol Arcs - How to Setup - 6/5/2018 8:31:52 PM   
Werewolf13

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

Interface Addendum.pdf in C:\Matrix Games\War in the Pacific Admiral's Edition\Manuals

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2306955&mpage=1&key=Search%2CArcs�

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/searchpro.asp?phrase=+Search+Arcs+&author=&forumid=528&topicreply=both&message=body&timeframe=%3E&timefilter=0&language=single&top=300&criteria=AND&minRank=0&sortMethod=r&submitbutton=+OK+



Will give those a look...

Thanks to you all who replied. Big help. Much appreciated. I remember when I played the original War in the Pacific way back in the 90's. Didn't take any time at all to learn it. Now at 66 - still can create really complicated statistical analysis for the company I work for but learning how to play or relearning in this case the complicated games I enjoy so much is getting harder and harder.

It's great when the community steps up to help.


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RE: Patrol Arcs - How to Setup - 6/5/2018 8:40:58 PM   
geofflambert


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I pretty much never use arcs for naval search. I do use them on occasion for ASW when I know where the subs are going to be, that can really intensify the number of attacks.

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RE: Patrol Arcs - How to Setup - 6/5/2018 8:43:42 PM   
geofflambert


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If you don't have enough planes your searches will be confined to the first segments that you designate, meaning maybe you get fifty degrees when you designated 90. The rest gets zero. Put a good commander on the squadron and they'll find what needs to be found.

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RE: Patrol Arcs - How to Setup - 6/5/2018 8:48:31 PM   
geofflambert


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Another thing on the ASW. Your regular search planes will attack subs when they spot them, and their coverage will be twice as far out, just don't have them load torpedoes. So if you've got both good search going on and good ASW, restricting the ASW to specific arcs makes even more sense.

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RE: Patrol Arcs - How to Setup - 6/5/2018 8:50:27 PM   
geofflambert


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Watch the colors on the arcs, if I recall correctly green is a.m., blue is p.m. and white is both a.m. and p.m..

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RE: Patrol Arcs - How to Setup - 6/5/2018 9:05:17 PM   
Dili

 

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Black are the fingers that are flown twice a day. Every 10 degree is a search finger for one aircraft, so if 3 are available only 30º search arc appear.

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RE: Patrol Arcs - How to Setup - 6/5/2018 10:28:42 PM   
Admiral DadMan


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Gorn are focused.

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RE: Patrol Arcs - How to Setup - 6/5/2018 10:41:27 PM   
geofflambert


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Sometimes I focus on a nice piece of a$$ and forget the important things.




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RE: Patrol Arcs - How to Setup - 6/5/2018 11:49:47 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Sometimes I focus on a nice piece of a$$ and forget the important things.




What's with all the laundry hanging out on the starboard quarter? Navy budget couldn't afford a couple of dryers?

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RE: Patrol Arcs - How to Setup - 6/6/2018 4:40:19 PM   
Lokasenna


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Your issue was definitely with not having enough planes in the unit (or enough planes set to fly) to cover all of the arcs that you set.

People will warn you off of search arcs. They have their uses. I use them heavily in circumstances like the one you describe. No point searching what I know to be empty ocean, or wasting naval search over land masses.

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RE: Patrol Arcs - How to Setup - 6/7/2018 8:07:32 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

My understanding is that *any* allocation of naval search will get the first 4-5 hexes as 'freebies',


I wouldn't call them 'freebies', but the first four hexes out from the base are searched at 360 degrees.

quote:

People will warn you off of search arcs. They have their uses. I use them heavily in circumstances like the one you describe. No point searching what I know to be empty ocean, or wasting naval search over land masses.


+1

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RE: Patrol Arcs - How to Setup - 6/7/2018 8:26:31 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Your issue was definitely with not having enough planes in the unit (or enough planes set to fly) to cover all of the arcs that you set.

People will warn you off of search arcs. They have their uses. I use them heavily in circumstances like the one you describe. No point searching what I know to be empty ocean, or wasting naval search over land masses.



Except when that important sector you need search coverage for is wider than the number of planes you have to commit when assigning each plane a tiny sliver......

The ONLY time search arcs are valuable is when the two variables above coincide.


And in answer to a question above, when you don't assign arcs a random arc is NOT selected, you are getting 360 degree coverage.

I have very, very rarely ever been surprised by a TF that appeared out of no where within the search range of my NAV search squadrons.

The theory that you are getting more concentrated and therefore more effective coverage by setting arcs has yet to be proven to my satisfaction.

When you set arcs and every last plane is assigned and arc, who is doing the searching in the 4 hex deep 360 degree zone?

I think that's what another poster meant by "freebie".

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RE: Patrol Arcs - How to Setup - 6/8/2018 4:45:42 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Your issue was definitely with not having enough planes in the unit (or enough planes set to fly) to cover all of the arcs that you set.

People will warn you off of search arcs. They have their uses. I use them heavily in circumstances like the one you describe. No point searching what I know to be empty ocean, or wasting naval search over land masses.



Except when that important sector you need search coverage for is wider than the number of planes you have to commit when assigning each plane a tiny sliver......

The ONLY time search arcs are valuable is when the two variables above coincide.



I have very, very rarely ever been surprised by a TF that appeared out of no where within the search range of my NAV search squadrons.

The theory that you are getting more concentrated and therefore more effective coverage by setting arcs has yet to be proven to my satisfaction.

When you set arcs and every last plane is assigned and arc, who is doing the searching in the 4 hex deep 360 degree zone?

I think that's what another poster meant by "freebie".


I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding of how searching works going on here. I will attempt to explain, but hopefully Alfred shows up as I'm mostly going to be paraphrasing what I remember from his previous explainer (which is in turn based on developer comments).

The fundamental mechanic to understand is that all planes on a search mission will search a given 10-degree arc, regardless of whether that is assigned or random.

First, the 4-hex "freebie": it's not actually free, it's just that it is possible to get 100% coverage of these hexes (whether or not the plane succeeds in generating a spotting report is another matter). The reason why the 4-hex distance "circle" centered on the point of origin for the search is much easier to each in is because of the way the arcs work. At range 1, there are 6 hexes - each of them will therefore contain 6 10-degree arcs to complete the 360-degree circle. Each additional hex of range adds 6 hexes to the outer circumference. At range 4, that's 24 hexes, so each hex will have on average 1.5 arcs. Out at range 6 you finally reach 1 plane per arc.

The reason why there can be gaps in coverage, and why long range naval search can be unreliable, is because out at those ranges the plane will not be searching every hex within the 10-degree arc. With a distance of 12 hexes, for example, each arc contains 2 hexes and the plane (as I understand it) will only search 1 of them. Out at range 18, the end of the arc is 3 hexes wide.

quote:


And in answer to a question above, when you don't assign arcs a random arc is NOT selected, you are getting 360 degree coverage.


This is incorrect. A random arc is selected for each plane from the 36 10-degree arcs that are available. Over a long enough period of time, a large enough sample will mean that on average each arc is being searched the same amount... but unless you have at least 36 planes flying every phase, you will not have "360 degree coverage" every day.

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RE: Patrol Arcs - How to Setup - 6/8/2018 5:22:04 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

This is incorrect. A random arc is selected for each plane from the 36 10-degree arcs that are available. Over a long enough period of time, a large enough sample will mean that on average each arc is being searched the same amount... but unless you have at least 36 planes flying every phase, you will not have "360 degree coverage" every day.



And you have documentation to support this claim?

I have never seen such a statement from a developer.

How is the 4 hex 360 degree coverage when assigning arcs working when their is sonly one plane in the squadron?
By what you describe you would still have to have enough planes to cover each sliver to get the 4 hex 360 degree coverage.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 6/8/2018 6:20:26 PM >


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RE: Patrol Arcs - How to Setup - 6/8/2018 6:37:31 PM   
Skyros


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This is what I have been able to find.



The full quote of what I posted to StK's query elsewhere was:

Recon planes conducting a "recon mission" engage in a point to point activity. Range therefore does not deteriorate their effectiveness.

Patrol planes (includes float planes and bombers) conducting a "naval search" mission are engaged in an area activity. For them there is a negative corelation between distance and effectiveness. From an efficiency POV, there is very limited value in placing to search out for more than 12 hexes.

Note that aircraft conducting an "ASW mission" (another area activity) the range of the plane is halved.

It does not say that a TF will not be spotted at a distance of more than 12 hexes but rather that beyond that point there is a very definite law of diminishing returns which makes it very inefficient once one takes into account the costs associated with searching.

Also read page 217 of the manual which states that beyond 300 miles (ie 8 hexes) TFs are less likely to be spotted by aircraft conducting a naval search mission.

Alfred
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3170122



1. Each plane allocated to naval search is given a 10 degree arc. That arc cannot be made smaller or bigger.

2. Each plane in the same squadron is given its own separate arc. They do not cross over into someone else's arc.

3. If you have more planes searching than 10 degree arcs set, the surplus planes will restart back at the first arc set.

4. The only realistic way to get two aircraft to search the same arc whilst still maintaining a wide search pattern is to have two or more separate squadrons allocated the exact same search arcs.

Alfred
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3170504

Although often asked, there is no particularly good consolidated thread which thoroughly deals with naval search/ASW arcs. This thread is probably the best single thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3299579&mpage=1&key=search%2Carc�

One of the problems you will encounter is that there are some very strong advocates for not setting search arcs but they tend to hide the details as to why they can get away with it. Newbies read these no set arcs assertions and just adopt the principle that it works perfectly and obviates the case for setting arcs. From that urban myths are created. As always the devil is in the detail. Particularly when reading my posts, one has to be alert to exactly what I say and the nuances I point out.

1. Setting search arcs does increase micromanagement. Players who are averse to micromanagement or at least want to minimise, tend to be very enthusiastic at the prospect of avoiding this additional work load.

2. There is an automatic 360 degree search arc for up to 4 hexes on all naval search/ASW missions. Set the mission out to 4 hexes, you get 360 degree coverage irrespective of what you do. Set the mission out to 8 hexes, you get 360 coverage up to 4 hexes out. Coverage for hexes 5-8 inclusive depends on what you do. Set the mission out to 12 hexes, you get 360 coverage up to 4 hexes out, with coverage of hexes 5-12 inclusive dependent on your selection.

3. Consider the range of your searching aircraft. For example, Allied float planes are not really going to stretch the auto 360 degree coverage are they. So there is no point in setting naval search arcs for them as the code has already taken care of that plus if you did specifically set such search arcs you would need to reset them every time a change of task force travel direction occurs as search arcs are not dynamic.

4. Usually when the don't bother setting search arcs adherents assert that in their games they do very well without setting them they fail to point out that the DL and MDL of enemy task forces are also determined by other factors besides the efforts of their own planes flying search missions. They also fail to point out that the sheer weight of embarked planes set to search usually is much greater than what they have on land and thus the malus associated with not setting arcs is mitigated. As I said details, details which are very easy to overlook by newbies.

5. Not all sea hexes are created equal. There are frontal and backdoor approaches to most ports. How often do you really think an enemy task force is going to, or is even capable, to come in from the back door. Yet, because it is random, you will get backdoor searching if not set.


Experienced players who know exactly what they are doing and what the enemy capabilities are, can get away without setting search arcs. They save themselves some micromanagement, but that is somewhat limited as setting of search arcs for land based aircraft is largely a one time set and forget task, only needed to be revisited when a major redrawing of the sea frontlines occurs. It will superficially appear to be as effective as setting arcs, but it isn't. So the real question for you is does the additional micromanagement represent an acceptable cost for the improved search footprint obtained when setting arcs.

Alfred
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3749647

Unless it has been changed in the latest patch, search planes out on a random setting do not daily adjust their search area to eventually cover (over a period of time) all 360 degrees. A random setting starts off at 0 degrees and subject to having sufficient aircraft assigned proceeds in clock direction. If only sufficient planes have been assigned to cover 90 degrees, then that was the only coverage area (0-90 degrees) one ever had searched.

Alfred
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3164528

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RE: Patrol Arcs - How to Setup - 6/9/2018 10:29:53 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

... A random arc is selected for each plane from the 36 10-degree arcs that are available. Over a long enough period of time, a large enough sample will mean that on average each arc is being searched the same amount... but unless you have at least 36 planes flying every phase, you will not have "360 degree coverage" every day.


The current code is actually not quite as sophisticated as this.

All maritime searching, be it Naval Search or ASW, commences at the first plane participating vector and then proceeds in sequential order of adjacent 10 degree sectors until either the air unit runs out of planes or sectors to search. With a player set search area that first plane participating sector is determined by the player. With the search left to the AI random, each day the AI determines the starting sector. As the previous days search sector is not saved it is possible that the AI will choose the same starting sector on consecutive days. Just as possible is that the AI will choose to start over land, or at least not factor whether land will subsequently come within that days sequential order.

With a player set search area it is possible to prevent searching over land. This isn't the case with a random setting. However, seeing the search arc is itself not a guarantee that all depicted sectors will be searched for search planes may abort their mission for valid considerations. These plane abortions can occur irrespective if the search was player set or left up to the AI. The depicted search arcs is therefore a best case scenario of what might be covered during that day's turn resolution phase.

Alfred

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RE: Patrol Arcs - How to Setup - 6/9/2018 11:08:42 AM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
However, seeing the search arc is itself not a guarantee that all depicted sectors will be searched for search planes may abort their mission for valid considerations. These plane abortions can occur irrespective if the search was player set or left up to the AI. The depicted search arcs is therefore a best case scenario of what might be covered during that day's turn resolution phase.

Alfred


Interesting. I knew the last couple of arcs on each the AM and PM search arcs where suspect, but never thought that each individual arc might be suspect to cancellation --I am guessing primarily because of weather, but could a plane be grounded for repairs, or morale or other flight check reasons. For example search arc 10 passes all checks (weather, morale, leaderships, etc) and flies. Search arc 20 fails morale check and stays home. Search arc 30 scrubbed for damage to plane, search arc 40 flies, etc, etc.

Is it possible for a search arc to only be searched for a fraction of is set range...running into an oncoming storm front for example?

During the replay recon missions scrubbed for bad weather generate a little message during the replay (but I have never seen it saved to the ops report). I have played head to head games where float planes on ships that scrub their mission also generates a report, but I don't see that in a regular pbem message.

Am I missing something here...are these reports saved in some file somewhere? Can they be toggled on and off?

Many thanks for your insight and hard work at providing answers.

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RE: Patrol Arcs - How to Setup - 6/9/2018 11:24:05 AM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
All maritime searching, be it Naval Search or ASW, commences at the first plane participating vector and then proceeds in sequential order of adjacent 10 degree sectors until either the air unit runs out of planes or sectors to search.

I presume when sectors end but there are still unused and ready planes left in the unit the procedure will then return to the first sector again and continue?

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RE: Patrol Arcs - How to Setup - 6/9/2018 12:41:01 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
All maritime searching, be it Naval Search or ASW, commences at the first plane participating vector and then proceeds in sequential order of adjacent 10 degree sectors until either the air unit runs out of planes or sectors to search.

I presume when sectors end but there are still unused and ready planes left in the unit the procedure will then return to the first sector again and continue?


I can give you a 100% confirmation for player set search arcs.

The arcs themselves will show (black sector lines) a sector being overflown by multiple planes. Of course this is dependent on having assigned surplus planes to search. IOW if you have a 12 plane group (all planes being in ready status) with 50% set to rest and 50% set to naval search and you assign only a 4 sector search area (ie 40 degrees) you will have 2 surplus planes (6 ready less 1 for each sector) which will restart searching at the first plane participating sector. However if assigned 8 sectors to search you run out of planes so only 6 sectors would be searched.

It is important to understand this is done by each group independently. Excess planes from one group will not fill in the gaps of another group.

Alfred

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RE: Patrol Arcs - How to Setup - 6/9/2018 1:05:35 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
However, seeing the search arc is itself not a guarantee that all depicted sectors will be searched for search planes may abort their mission for valid considerations. These plane abortions can occur irrespective if the search was player set or left up to the AI. The depicted search arcs is therefore a best case scenario of what might be covered during that day's turn resolution phase.

Alfred


Interesting. I knew the last couple of arcs on each the AM and PM search arcs where suspect, but never thought that each individual arc might be suspect to cancellation --I am guessing primarily because of weather, but could a plane be grounded for repairs, or morale or other flight check reasons. For example search arc 10 passes all checks (weather, morale, leaderships, etc) and flies. Search arc 20 fails morale check and stays home. Search arc 30 scrubbed for damage to plane, search arc 40 flies, etc, etc.

Is it possible for a search arc to only be searched for a fraction of is set range...running into an oncoming storm front for example?

During the replay recon missions scrubbed for bad weather generate a little message during the replay (but I have never seen it saved to the ops report). I have played head to head games where float planes on ships that scrub their mission also generates a report, but I don't see that in a regular pbem message.

Am I missing something here...are these reports saved in some file somewhere? Can they be toggled on and off?

Many thanks for your insight and hard work at providing answers.



Weather is a major relevant consideration.

Generally speaking, the search arcs displayed on the map after pressing the "z" hotkey are accurate. The arcs show what is expected at the time (ie the planning stage) to be flown during the subsequent turn resolution phase. They therefore take into account what is currently ready/unready so if there are fewer ready planes currently available than when the search sectors were originally specified you will see fewer sectors displayed on the map. However just as when ordering an aircraft offensive mission the player is not told if the mission will subsequently be scrubbed for weather et al reasons, the same applies to the individual aircraft on a search mission. These "scrubbing" factors are simply not known when the player is inputting their orders at the planning phase.

Always remember that the recon mission is a point to point activity using only a single aircraft out of the group whereas naval search/ASW is an area activity which uses multiple aircraft. It is far easier to generate reports on a single aircraft running a point to point action than multiple aircraft on an area action where the same factors are not necessarily present in every hex of the area.

As to sectors themselves, there is no partial intra sector searching. Either the sector was searched or it wasn't searched. However being searched does not generate a 100% guarantee of successfully generating a sighting. There is however a search penalty for not operating within set search arcs.

Alfred

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Patrol Arcs - How to Setup Page: [1]
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