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Turning off repair of China manpower sites - 6/1/2018 10:41:36 PM   
dasboot1960


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I'm using Kull's scheme(Thank You)for initial Japanese moves in China(mostly to maximize economical garrisons, but I think I like the underlying offensive strategy if I'm reading it right)I'm stumped on turning of repair of manpower sites. I imagine it has to do with saving resources/HI, but are these of now value for LCU/replacement production?. Thanks to all responders!

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RE: Turning off repair of China manpower sites - 6/2/2018 5:37:55 AM   
Kull


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Not really a big deal, but the idea is that supply is so precious in China, that you don't want to inadvertently waste any of it in repairing damaged manpower centers. Shutting all the repairs off on T1 means you don't have to think about it later.

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RE: Turning off repair of China manpower sites - 6/2/2018 8:32:05 AM   
Uncivil Engineer

 

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In addition to China, I would turn off Manpower repair EVERYWHERE. And turn off Resource and LI repair everywhere; if you want to SELECTIVELY repair some of that later you can turn it back on.

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RE: Turning off repair of China manpower sites - 6/2/2018 5:04:36 PM   
dasboot1960


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Thanks Kull! I figured something like that

Uncivil engineer - Thanks for the tip. I started with upgrades and replacements off, but I remember reading that the returns on LI repair are not great. It appears ditto for resources? Resources wou7ld not have occurred to me as they are a base industrial input, and won't I need to repair resources centers in the Indies and Malaya? Or do I recall reading somewhere that Japan actually starts with resource centers to suffice?

Thank you both!

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RE: Turning off repair of China manpower sites - 6/2/2018 6:17:16 PM   
inqistor


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There is serious overproduction of manpower. Considering what players generally "spent" during whole game, 3 points per one center should suffice. Currently they produce 5 per day. So you don't need anything extra.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dasboot1960

I started with upgrades and replacements off, but I remember reading that the returns on LI repair are not great. It appears ditto for resources? Resources wou7ld not have occurred to me as they are a base industrial input, and won't I need to repair resources centers in the Indies and Malaya? Or do I recall reading somewhere that Japan actually starts with resource centers to suffice?

There is small shortage of Resources production, but what you catch at PI should seal that hole. In addition, you will get extra production in China, Malaya, Borneo etc. No need to repair anything there.

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RE: Turning off repair of China manpower sites - 6/2/2018 9:26:51 PM   
Lokasenna


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Manpower may as well just not exist, in terms of actually producing anything.

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RE: Turning off repair of China manpower sites - 6/2/2018 9:41:28 PM   
PaxMondo


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As Japan, you should ALWAYS turn off ALL repair. Then selectively turn on repair for individual factories/production as you see fit.

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RE: Turning off repair of China manpower sites - 6/3/2018 7:25:15 AM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
As Japan, you should ALWAYS turn off ALL repair. Then selectively turn on repair for individual factories/production as you see fit.

QFT.
One unit repaired eats 1000 supply no matter what kind of on-map industry/resource/factory is repaired. And Japan should think about efficient supply usage from the start. This means no Manpower/Resources/LI should ever be repaired. HI should only be repaired if you can hold it and defend it from bombing for like 2 years+. Oil should be repaired as long as it is not under air raids. Refineries generally should not be repaired because you have an excess of them from the start, but sometimes e.g. with bad luck trashed Palembang you may want to.

I also turn off all expansions of bases/forts from the start and turn them on selectively - you don't want to build for the sake of building, using supply and paving way for future allied conquests

< Message edited by GetAssista -- 6/3/2018 7:26:02 AM >

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RE: Turning off repair of China manpower sites - 6/3/2018 8:14:20 AM   
inqistor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Manpower may as well just not exist, in terms of actually producing anything.

Yup. I'm guessing, Japan can run out, if player at start of war turns on all replacements, and aggressively begin industry expansion, but only for few days.


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

One unit repaired eats 1000 supply no matter what kind of on-map industry/resource/factory is repaired. And Japan should think about efficient supply usage from the start. This means no Manpower/Resources/LI should ever be repaired. HI should only be repaired if you can hold it and defend it from bombing for like 2 years+.

LI will theoretically returns itself in around 3 years. The trick is to repair it, where Allies will not land, and where you will need extra supply in 1945.

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RE: Turning off repair of China manpower sites - 6/3/2018 9:54:46 AM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: inqistor
quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista
One unit repaired eats 1000 supply no matter what kind of on-map industry/resource/factory is repaired. And Japan should think about efficient supply usage from the start. This means no Manpower/Resources/LI should ever be repaired. HI should only be repaired if you can hold it and defend it from bombing for like 2 years+.

LI will theoretically returns itself in around 3 years. The trick is to repair it, where Allies will not land, and where you will need extra supply in 1945.

Yup, you are right. Very few points like that on the map though. Only Northern China comes to mind, and it is mostly for subsistence, not transporting this supply out (because wastage).
Unless you are sure you are playing well enough to go deep into 45, then Changsha area might be ok. And there is always the threat of air raids, so smaller bases are preferrable for such repairs

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RE: Turning off repair of China manpower sites - 6/3/2018 1:24:18 PM   
Dili

 

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Maybe if divisions arrived with no squads manpower would be needed.

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RE: Turning off repair of China manpower sites - 6/3/2018 2:09:47 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: inqistor
quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista
One unit repaired eats 1000 supply no matter what kind of on-map industry/resource/factory is repaired. And Japan should think about efficient supply usage from the start. This means no Manpower/Resources/LI should ever be repaired. HI should only be repaired if you can hold it and defend it from bombing for like 2 years+.

LI will theoretically returns itself in around 3 years. The trick is to repair it, where Allies will not land, and where you will need extra supply in 1945.

Yup, you are right. Very few points like that on the map though. Only Northern China comes to mind, and it is mostly for subsistence, not transporting this supply out (because wastage).
Unless you are sure you are playing well enough to go deep into 45, then Changsha area might be ok. And there is always the threat of air raids, so smaller bases are preferrable for such repairs

+1

And you have to factor in using supply in the VERY early game when most players are supply limited … meaning you are already not doing everything you would like to as you simply do not have the supply to do it.
Now, you want to expend more supply on a possible return 3 years later .... very dicey proposition for me. however, I will also note that this is hotly debated by very good players, so just my opinion.


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RE: Turning off repair of China manpower sites - 6/4/2018 8:34:58 PM   
rustysi


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Don't know if I'm a good player, but I am one who totally disagrees with most of what is said above. As far as manpower repair, I do agree, none. Japan has enough manpower points unless something incredible happens. I have all replacements on and by the end of '42 I have over 1.2M in the manpower pool.

As for resource sites, I say it depends. Pretty sure Japan starts the campaign with a small resource deficit. She can easily make this up with captured sites. Unless... In my current game I've had a large number of captured sites heavily damaged or totally destroyed. Had a resource deficit until about Nov '42. Now that said I did my usual industry expansion, which exacerbates the problem some. Since my goal as Japan is to have >30k supply/day (playing stock) there's no other way.

So here's where I believe you may expand and I'll give reasons why. Manchukuo (a bit), Korea (a bit), eastern China (a bit), Shakalin (a bit more), Hokkaido (good amount), nothern Honshu, Taiwan. I've checked the resource numbers and production in these areas and decided that a certain amount of building could be done. There are a couple of others, but they're a bit more risky.

So to me its cheaper as Japan to ship supply than resources, supply simply takes 'less', 15:1 ya know (in LI anyway). So with the extra production in certain areas they become more 'supply independent' and I have to ship less resources out and supply in as the case may be. This gives the added benefit of less fuel usage. Now it also means that I'll need more resources in the HI as these areas will be supplying less, but for me I try to ship it all anyway. Don't get me wrong, I fully understand the 'laws of diminishing returns' and realize that at some point my opponent will cut my lines of communications. This will make getting everything home impossible, but that is for my opponent to do.

The economics of all this can be a bit tricky, sort of like balancing an elephant on the head of a pin. Consider what you have to do as Japan at the start of the game. Expand the Empire, R&D aircraft, build up engine factories and plane production, produce warships and merchies, to name some of it. Much of this takes supply to accomplish. Add to that industry expansion and you could have one nice big 'economic crash'. So take it slow, plan carefully, and take the Empire to victory.

Or not. Still don't believe Japan can win anyway, but its still fun to play around with the possibilities.

Of course that's as long as the Allies don't do anything foolish.

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RE: Turning off repair of China manpower sites - 6/5/2018 1:27:21 AM   
PaxMondo


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HI expansion is different, payback in 500 days … LI though is 1000 days … I wouldn't have free supply to spend on it until ~4/42 after the amphib bonus is gone. That means 1/45 before I start to see any return on my investment for LI. HI though, I start to see return by 9/43. Massive difference there …

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RE: Turning off repair of China manpower sites - 6/5/2018 3:23:47 AM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

HI expansion is different, payback in 500 days … LI though is 1000 days … I wouldn't have free supply to spend on it until ~4/42 after the amphib bonus is gone. That means 1/45 before I start to see any return on my investment for LI. HI though, I start to see return by 9/43. Massive difference there …


HI expansion is robbing Peter to pay Paul. Since HI runs on your most pressured pain point (Oil->Fuel), you'll only ever get "so much" of it. There's not much point in expanding HI for the sake of probably having a bit more supply in 1943 or 1944. You won't be short of supply in 1943 or 1944 unless you've already lost. You'll be short of supply in 1945 and 1946, at which point you'll be out of Fuel and therefore HI production regardless of whether you expanded HI or not.

You will probably have a surplus of Resources, however. What runs on just Resources? LI does. But you have to do it before March 1942.

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RE: Turning off repair of China manpower sites - 6/5/2018 11:44:27 AM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

HI expansion is different, payback in 500 days … LI though is 1000 days … I wouldn't have free supply to spend on it until ~4/42 after the amphib bonus is gone. That means 1/45 before I start to see any return on my investment for LI. HI though, I start to see return by 9/43. Massive difference there …


HI expansion is robbing Peter to pay Paul. Since HI runs on your most pressured pain point (Oil->Fuel), you'll only ever get "so much" of it. There's not much point in expanding HI for the sake of probably having a bit more supply in 1943 or 1944. You won't be short of supply in 1943 or 1944 unless you've already lost. You'll be short of supply in 1945 and 1946, at which point you'll be out of Fuel and therefore HI production regardless of whether you expanded HI or not.

You will probably have a surplus of Resources, however. What runs on just Resources? LI does. But you have to do it before March 1942.

Agreed … before March 42 would be the rub for me … hard to find supply before the end of amphib bonus.



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RE: Turning off repair of China manpower sites - 6/5/2018 2:03:41 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Maybe if divisions arrived with no squads manpower would be needed.



I've always wondered if the monthly allotment of replacement squads is tied in any way to manpower production.

It sure doesn't seem like it is. And if that's the case what IS manpower production actually good for in game terms?

The Dutch don't see to get any more available replacement squads as I liberate Dutch manpower production in Java in December of '44.

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RE: Turning off repair of China manpower sites - 6/5/2018 2:45:46 PM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili
Maybe if divisions arrived with no squads manpower would be needed.

I've always wondered if the monthly allotment of replacement squads is tied in any way to manpower production.

It sure doesn't seem like it is. And if that's the case what IS manpower production actually good for in game terms?

The Dutch don't see to get any more available replacement squads as I liberate Dutch manpower production in Java in December of '44.

Manpower is a resource for squad building, just like vehicle points are a resource for AFV/vehicle building, and Armaments are a resource for squads and other devices building. All this is for Japan only, secton 13.2 in the manual. And available manpower is more than enough to have all Japanese needs met. Japan never runs out of manpower stock, at least I've never heard of anybody encountering this hurdle.

Also, manpower does not matter for Allies at all. Like seriously at all. All squad/device production rates are predefined in the scenario for Allies

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RE: Turning off repair of China manpower sites - 6/5/2018 3:41:45 PM   
HansBolter


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All these bells and whistles in the game for one side only makes me want to wretch.

Why is it even visible to the Allies when we have no reason to give a flying you know what about it?

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RE: Turning off repair of China manpower sites - 6/5/2018 5:47:44 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

All these bells and whistles in the game for one side only makes me want to wretch.

Why is it even visible to the Allies when we have no reason to give a flying you know what about it?



If I might suggest a possibility Hans? I've always felt that the entire game is one massive learning experience. That's why you go through the tutorials , then pay the smaller scenarios , playing one side then the other. Then of course comes the day you play your first grand campaign , as the allies. Maybe several. By seeing the production process , even though you have minimum influence , your still learning. Once you've mastered the allied side , then you are ready to play the grand campaign as the Japanese. The most complicated phase , I believe ,is production. Basically , every single step and processes are baby steps , then bigger and bigger steps to the day you master the Japanese side.

While I'm not yet ready to take on the Japanese side , each game I play , each move I make gets me closer to it. And that's the real challenge....are you ready to master "Factory manager in the Pacific?"

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RE: Turning off repair of China manpower sites - 6/5/2018 6:33:11 PM   
HansBolter


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Steve,

While I appreciate the effort you put into trying to convince me to see this in a positive light it really only serves to reinforce my negative perception.

Try seeing it my way: Using the Allied side as a trainer to get me ready for the really, really good side, the Japanese side is just one more denigrating slam for the Allied side.

Yea, I know I am completely entrenched and immovable.

But that's just who I am.

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RE: Turning off repair of China manpower sites - 6/5/2018 7:31:04 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Steve,

While I appreciate the effort you put into trying to convince me to see this in a positive light it really only serves to reinforce my negative perception.

Try seeing it my way: Using the Allied side as a trainer to get me ready for the really, really good side, the Japanese side is just one more denigrating slam for the Allied side.

Yea, I know I am completely entrenched and immovable.

But that's just who I am.



You make some good points Hans. I'm certainly not going to try to change your point of view. I guess my thought are that there is nothing harder to play with a straight face than a lost cause. And for Japan , it is. But the reason we play thins game is to prove that we are smarter than Nimitz or Yammamato. While some of our players may be delusional , most try very hard to do better than the Japanese did. Some actually do better. Except for built in features like the "auto-victory", none will. I don't really feel that most JFB's are anything but highly dedicated players , very talented , that love a challenge. Some day I hope to become one. Do I approve of the Japanese view point of world war 2? Not highly. At the US Navy memorial I was privileged to interview survivors of the Asiatic fleet (who then spent 4 years as "guests of the Emperor"). On Guam I was associated with the Military museum there and spent a lot of time talking to Chamorro's who survived occupation , mistreatment and a couple of survivors of massacres. ( and a few Japanese , who gave a me a VERY interesting point of view). But I don't have to support their goals to play as them , any more than I need to subscribe to Nazism to play the Wehrmacht in a ww2 European game. I just try to do as well as I can from the military point of view. That's just the way I am. :)

The down side of all this is it will be a long time before I can challenge you to a game , as we BOTH can't be allies! :)


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RE: Turning off repair of China manpower sites - 6/6/2018 4:42:47 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

HI expansion is different, payback in 500 days … LI though is 1000 days … I wouldn't have free supply to spend on it until ~4/42 after the amphib bonus is gone. That means 1/45 before I start to see any return on my investment for LI. HI though, I start to see return by 9/43. Massive difference there …


HI expansion is robbing Peter to pay Paul. Since HI runs on your most pressured pain point (Oil->Fuel), you'll only ever get "so much" of it. There's not much point in expanding HI for the sake of probably having a bit more supply in 1943 or 1944. You won't be short of supply in 1943 or 1944 unless you've already lost. You'll be short of supply in 1945 and 1946, at which point you'll be out of Fuel and therefore HI production regardless of whether you expanded HI or not.

You will probably have a surplus of Resources, however. What runs on just Resources? LI does. But you have to do it before March 1942.

Agreed … before March 42 would be the rub for me … hard to find supply before the end of amphib bonus.




One caveat I should add to this is it probably makes sense to do some minor HI expansion in places that produce Fuel in order to keep them self-sufficient in supplies (although if you will be fighting in that area you will probably want to ship in some more for combat and whatnot). This would be Java, repairing the HI at Singapore and perhaps expanding it... and I forget, does Manila have HI? If it does, that's another candidate, although you will have to ship Fuel in to there also.

The point of doing so is that you will save yourself from having to spend fuel (and risk assets) to ship supply, so the additional rate of burn on your "only so much" oil/fuel can be worth it. I haven't done the math on this.

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RE: Turning off repair of China manpower sites - 6/6/2018 4:44:12 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

All these bells and whistles in the game for one side only makes me want to wretch.

Why is it even visible to the Allies when we have no reason to give a flying you know what about it?


Is it a bell or whistle if it doesn't even do anything?

It's visible for the Allies because they wanted to leave open the possibility of an Allied production system at some point, IIRC.

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RE: Turning off repair of China manpower sites - 6/7/2018 8:41:37 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

HI expansion is different, payback in 500 days … LI though is 1000 days … I wouldn't have free supply to spend on it until ~4/42 after the amphib bonus is gone. That means 1/45 before I start to see any return on my investment for LI. HI though, I start to see return by 9/43. Massive difference there …


I do it all from the start, I found the limit in my current AI game. Empire supply dropped to below 1.8M and I began to have trouble finding supply for ops. Exactly what I wanted to know.

Now I get how hard I can push the issue. By the end of '42 supply is back to 3M and growing. Don't know if it'll expand enough to get through the 'end game', but that's why I'm continuing my game through at least '43. When I get there I'll post my numbers and maybe some of the guru's here can tell me if I'm ready for PBEM.

quote:

HI expansion is robbing Peter to pay Paul. Since HI runs on your most pressured pain point (Oil->Fuel), you'll only ever get "so much" of it.


While I agree you only get "so much" of it, the whole game is about balance. My outlook is how much HI do I need to support the production of 1000+ fighter planes per month in '44. BTW that number is historical for Japan. Therefore I base my HI production level on Mike Solli's effort. He doesn't seem to be having any trouble with it at 7.5k (or production of 15k/day)

quote:

If I might suggest a possibility Hans? I've always felt that the entire game is one massive learning experience. That's why you go through the tutorials , then pay the smaller scenarios , playing one side then the other. Then of course comes the day you play your first grand campaign , as the allies. Maybe several. By seeing the production process , even though you have minimum influence , your still learning. Once you've mastered the allied side , then you are ready to play the grand campaign as the Japanese. The most complicated phase , I believe ,is production. Basically , every single step and processes are baby steps , then bigger and bigger steps to the day you master the Japanese side.


Very well said sir.

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RE: Turning off repair of China manpower sites - 6/7/2018 8:54:01 PM   
rustysi


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Now as far as the manpower numbers being a Japanese thingy. I don't look at it as some toy or gift that they get to play with.

The way I look at manpower is it is used by the Imperialist Allied pigs to torch my cities. When the Allies get in range to bomb Japan's cities what does he look for, manpower!!! Boom!!!

So to me its a way for the programmers to get that included in the game. Now there are other reasons/uses, but to me that seems like the main one. Let's face it its just another abstract of the game. IMHO. YMMV.



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RE: Turning off repair of China manpower sites - 6/8/2018 4:34:43 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

HI expansion is different, payback in 500 days … LI though is 1000 days … I wouldn't have free supply to spend on it until ~4/42 after the amphib bonus is gone. That means 1/45 before I start to see any return on my investment for LI. HI though, I start to see return by 9/43. Massive difference there …


I do it all from the start, I found the limit in my current AI game. Empire supply dropped to below 1.8M and I began to have trouble finding supply for ops. Exactly what I wanted to know.

Now I get how hard I can push the issue. By the end of '42 supply is back to 3M and growing. Don't know if it'll expand enough to get through the 'end game', but that's why I'm continuing my game through at least '43. When I get there I'll post my numbers and maybe some of the guru's here can tell me if I'm ready for PBEM.

quote:

HI expansion is robbing Peter to pay Paul. Since HI runs on your most pressured pain point (Oil->Fuel), you'll only ever get "so much" of it.


While I agree you only get "so much" of it, the whole game is about balance. My outlook is how much HI do I need to support the production of 1000+ fighter planes per month in '44. BTW that number is historical for Japan. Therefore I base my HI production level on Mike Solli's effort. He doesn't seem to be having any trouble with it at 7.5k (or production of 15k/day)



1000x fighter planes = 38,000 HI per month = 456,000 per year. You should have ample HI to support that whether you expand any or not.

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RE: Turning off repair of China manpower sites - 6/12/2018 11:34:34 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

1000x fighter planes = 38,000 HI per month = 456,000 per year. You should have ample HI to support that whether you expand any or not.


Never thought of 'running' the numbers. Thanks. Have 750k in my current AI game, January '43.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Lokasenna)
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