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Am I just a terrible player? - 6/1/2018 11:22:48 AM   
2clicks

 

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I've played several scenarios and have had little to no overall success in any. Operation crusader was pushed back after initial success due to low supply and what felt like overwhelming numbers. Tannenberg scenario as Germany again started well but ground down to a stalemate with huge loses. Then I tried the balkan war. My Montenegro army took the objectives and the Greek forces slowly took ground but the Bulgarians were nearly destroyed on the start line. I didn't finish my attempt at danzig corridor as I felt I quickly lost cohesion and a grip of what was going on.

Is there any chance for me or am I going to have to accept being a terrible commander?
Post #: 1
RE: Am I just a terrible player? - 6/1/2018 12:55:42 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2clicks
I've played several scenarios and have had little to no overall success in any. Operation Crusader was pushed back after initial success due to low supply and what felt like overwhelming numbers. Tannenberg scenario as Germany again started well but ground down to a stalemate with huge loses. Then I tried the balkan war. My Montenegro army took the objectives and the Greek forces slowly took ground but the Bulgarians were nearly destroyed on the start line. I didn't finish my attempt at danzig corridor as I felt I quickly lost cohesion and a grip of what was going on.

Is there any chance for me or am I going to have to accept being a terrible commander?

I feel your pain, Andrew. And welcome to the forum, thanks for posting and you're among friends. let me try to answer your question for you. You're understandably discouraged and frustrated. What you need is for some experienced player to take you under his wing and play an "open" game where you aren't playing to "win" but rather as a learning event...a scientific experiment, a what-if to explore. What I did about 10 years ago was to play myself ( both sides ) and try things. And I read a LOT of AAR's and workshops and picked up a lot of tips from the other wargamers posting on the forum. I was a lurker for years before I started posting stuff and asking questions. Then about 5 years into the experience I started doing PBEM games and my learning curve became exponential. I got tips and hints and frank advice from my opponent(s) and I actually got better at wargamming. I started beating the PO. I'm no expert yet but I have won a game. That's the joy of TOAW....you transition from thinking mostly about game mechanics, how to do game things, to tactics and strategy things and the game becomes a LOT more fun.

Some scenarios require more patience than others. You can get a quick fix from the shorter smaller scenarios but some scenarios are so large and long running that most games are abandoned after 6 months or so. I myself have started D21 about a dozen times because I can't seem to beat the PO yet. I'm practicing and trying things and I'm getting better at it and I'm starting to enjoy the game a lot more but I still have yet to beat the PO. And look at the number of posts I've got. A lot of those posts are me asking questions of others. Don't be afraid to appear slow. Asking questions and getting answers is how we learn.

I have an idea....semd me an email so I will have your email address and we'll do a short small scenario so I can get the learning process started for you seriously. I'm at fulkersonlarry60(at)gmail(dot)com. I hope this helps.

(in reply to 2clicks)
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RE: Am I just a terrible player? - 6/1/2018 7:30:38 PM   
MikeJ19


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2clicks,

I agree with Larry. Take a really good look at the tutorial - reading all of the notes that come with it. I played it a number of times to make sure I understood things and I have played other versions of TOAW.

I like Larry's idea of walking your through a scenario. Another option is to look at the AARs and try one of the smaller games and see how you do things compared to someone else.

If you start an AAR thread, you can post your questions and comments. You will likely find lots of people giving you advice and support. One of the things I am really enjoying about this game is this forum. There are some very good players who will take their time to help!

All the best and good luck,

_____________________________

Mike

Retired Gunner

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
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RE: Am I just a terrible player? - 6/2/2018 1:00:50 AM   
TheeWarLord


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Greetings, curious, how many battle rounds are you able to squeeze out of your turn? The more rounds per turn, the more causalities you inflict, more maneuvering, encirclements, bombardments, ect, ect. Of course there are variables that impact your battle rounds. In most scenarios, you want to maximize as much as you can in any given turn.

< Message edited by TheeWarLord -- 6/2/2018 1:03:42 AM >

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Post #: 4
RE: Am I just a terrible player? - 6/2/2018 1:07:36 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheeWarLord

Greetings, curious, how many battle rounds are you able to squeeze out of your turn? The more rounds per turn, the more causalities you inflict, more maneuvering, encirclements, bombardments, ect, ect. Of course there are variables that impact your battle rounds. In most scenarios, you want to maximize as much as you can in any given turn.

I remember getting 8 combat rounds one time playing FITE and I've come close several times since.

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Post #: 5
RE: Am I just a terrible player? - 6/2/2018 1:11:07 PM   
hingram


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From: SW Virginia
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Supply, supply, supply

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Hank

If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem.

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Post #: 6
RE: Am I just a terrible player? - 6/13/2018 2:16:38 AM   
Kevinorf

 

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I don't worry too much about winning or losing the first several times I play a new game. I just try to play smaller scenarios and learn the game mechanics. Balkans 12 seemed like a pretty good one. Won easily as the Ottomans and lost big as the Balkan League, and after I played both games, it was easy to see why. Learned a lot about entrenchment and supply in those two games.

Try to play the same scenario again a few times as you learn what you did wrong. Try playing the other side.

Watching YouTubes of the scenario you want to play (or just of play in general) by good players is a huge help.

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RE: Am I just a terrible player? - 6/13/2018 10:41:01 PM   
TheeWarLord


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Actually that's pretty good. Sounds like you time manage your turn well. So, it could be tactics, have you tried the benefits of using limited attacks? Its counter-intuitive, but it can put you in favorable tactical positions.

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RE: Am I just a terrible player? - 6/14/2018 9:08:17 AM   
2clicks

 

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Thanks for the suggestions,

Been trying crusader again and its going slightly better. Definitely enjoying it more despite taking a beating. Supply seems to be an issue still but I don't think it being a desert location helps. I've been trying to rotate front line troops, be more on the ball with using my artillery and maximising the use of rounds.

As far as limited attacks and such I've been playing around with them a bit although I understand them I have far from mastered them. The more I play the more I think I am not tactically gifted. Nothing beats running straight at them right?

I think I will do that next, try a few from both sides. See how the AI does in the same situations and try to learn from my previous mistakes!

Also is there any other good smaller scale scenarios? I do like the ones that are a bit different from the usual war game areas hence the Balkan war etc.


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RE: Am I just a terrible player? - 6/15/2018 3:47:17 PM   
2clicks

 

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Another quick update, somehow I have managed to pull of an huge victory and won operation crusader. Didn't relieve Tobruk but took enough VPs to win the scenario. Thanks for the tips everyone.

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Post #: 10
RE: Am I just a terrible player? - 6/18/2018 1:54:09 AM   
MikeJ19


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From: Ottawa, Canada
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2clicks,

Well done! Glad to see things are working out!

All the best,

_____________________________

Mike

Retired Gunner

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RE: Am I just a terrible player? - 6/18/2018 4:33:45 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

Posts: 37869
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: 2clicks
Another quick update, somehow I have managed to pull of an huge victory and won operation crusader. Didn't relieve Tobruk but took enough VPs to win the scenario. Thanks for the tips everyone.

Way to go dude. Sounds like you're doing better than you thought you'd do. If you've watched a war movie on TV you ought to be able to figure out how to fight a war. LOL. Welcome to the forum.

Good hunting.

(in reply to 2clicks)
Post #: 12
RE: Am I just a terrible player? - 6/21/2018 6:47:42 PM   
NikolaiEzhov


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Hey man:
The reason for putting Tannenberg 14 into the "Tutorials" folder is to qualify the player's ability to conduct OPERATIONAL MANEUVER.

Just remember that the manpower comparison between Germany and Russia is 1:2, you cannot win only with your men on the front. However, the Germans enjoyed an "insider's advantage" (that's how Japanese and Chinese military textbooks call them; I don't know what it shall be described in U.S. military terms), that it has a shorter Line-of-Communication than the Russian and a convenient railway system that can travel troops fast and without attrition. Therefore the key point of German prevail in the battle is the dare and capability of concentrating decisive superior forces against one instead of two Russian Armies once at a time, which means that you must leave another Russian Army basically unopposed except for limited fortified regions and tactical reserves.

Historically, after the Battle of Gumbinnen, Rennenkampf's Russian 1st Army attacking from the east halted to reorganize, when the bulk of the German 8th Army maneuvered to the south to attack the then-isolated Russian 2nd Army and totally annihilated it in the Battle of Tannenberg. After that, the German 8th Army further maneuvered to the east, hampered the Russian 1st Army in the Battle of Masurian Lakes. The maneuver of major German forces between two different Area of Operations in the Theater is basically through railway.

If a German player ends up Tannenberg 14 with statemate and heavy casualties, it usually (if not always) because that he doesn't concentrate sufficient force to conduct the main assault.

Therefore, in order to win this scenario, a German player has to figure out:
1. When will Rennenkampf's 1st Army (attack from the east) be exhausted and stop rapid advance that will worsen the state of the whole German defense gesture?
2. Samsonov's Russian 2nd Army (attack from the south) is bogged down by German fortified regions temporarily and will be easily encircled. However, Samsonov's army is so big that can't be easily eliminated with the already-existing German forces at the southern front. How many more troops do you need to accomplish an offensive operation that will totally wipe out Samsonov and clear the enemy in the south?
3. Where can you find the sufficient troops? How to bring them to the south? When will they arrive at their positions?
4. How to conceal your purpose of operation and deceive the enemy? (Not necessary when playing with PO, though.)
5. After you put your main force to the south, how can you defend off (at least delay) Rennenkampf's Army at the eastern front with limited covering force? If they push too deep they could gravely threaten the whole situation.
6. How long do you plan to take to annihilate Samsonov before Rennenkampf can risk your strategic situation?
7. If the attack is a success, how to bring your main troops back to the east after dealing with Samsonov before Rennenkampf can do more harm to you? How many troops are going to be left to the south as the covering force against any further attack by Russian reserves, which is not available at the beginning of the scenario but will enter the theater of war later?
8. If the attack is a failure, how to restore defensive gesture and minimized the loss before the Ivans takes Eastern Prussia and Berlin?
9. After finishing with Samsonov, how to conduct the attack against Rennenkampf's army?

This is a long question list but they are necessary. To win a military operation you have to think about what operational commanders and staffs (Hindenburg and Ludendorff) think. The answer to these questions reflects the ability on, in Chinese military terms, the mastering of the "season of operations", which is one of the major ability that a commander that is at or beyond regiment level.

And these questions are not difficult. They can be answered with a combination of common sense, experience and a bit of calculation. Some vague instinct will be far enough.

Figure out the answers, create your plans first, adjust your plan with real-time theater situations, determine the "when, where & who" of your plan, and conduct your plan with inherent resolve. That how to win this game.

====================
Personnally I catalogued the four tutorial scenarios in TOAW4 (3 left in TOAW4) as below:
Easiest and first to play: Turtoral (=Korea 50-51) - learning TOAW abc, offensive, defensive and the conversion between them at general level, logistics.
Second easiest: Kasserine 43 - maneuver, combined arms operations, offensive and defensive art at the tactical level.
A little harder: Tannenberg 14 - mastering of the "season of operations", maneuver, offensive and defensive art at the operational level.
Hardest: Anonymous Heroics (Red PO) (already removed in TOAW4) - strategic thinking and the combined application of strategical, operational and tactical arts on the battlefield.

You can try this four scenarios one by one (Anonymous Heroics (PBEM) in "Hypothetic Studies" folder can be the substitute of the fourth scenario); not to just win the game, but to construct your "thinking circuit" as a strategist. Then things may be much easier when playing the other scenarios.

Regards, Nikolai.

< Message edited by NikolaiEzhov -- 6/21/2018 6:53:09 PM >


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Post #: 13
RE: Am I just a terrible player? - 6/21/2018 11:18:02 PM   
hjc


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A thoughtful and very helpful post, Nikolai. Thanks for taking the time to write it.

And thanks to all the other long term forum members for the long history of help with the game.

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Post #: 14
RE: Am I just a terrible player? - 6/22/2018 2:33:44 AM   
Lobster


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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2clicks
Another quick update, somehow I have managed to pull of an huge victory and won operation crusader. Didn't relieve Tobruk but took enough VPs to win the scenario. Thanks for the tips everyone.

Way to go dude. Sounds like you're doing better than you thought you'd do. If you've watched a war movie on TV you ought to be able to figure out how to fight a war. LOL. Welcome to the forum.

Good hunting.


We need a John Wayne counter.

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RE: Am I just a terrible player? - 6/22/2018 8:09:26 PM   
r6kunz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NikolaiEzhov

However, the Germans enjoyed an "insider's advantage" (that's how Japanese and Chinese military textbooks call them; I don't know what it shall be described in U.S. military terms), that it has a shorter Line-of-Communication
Regards, Nikolai.

Nikolai, that is a great summary of operational doctrine. I am anxious to look at Tanneberg 14 again.
The "insider's advantage" is appropriate; in the US Military, it would be called interior lines of communications. But I like "insider's advantage" better.
cheers,

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RE: Am I just a terrible player? - 6/23/2018 7:58:54 PM   
2clicks

 

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From: Scotland
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Thanks for the information. Yes I think it takes a bit of time to get the Operational hat on rather than a tactical one.

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