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How many mine fields - 5/29/2018 7:10:27 PM   
Lawless1


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If I send 3 mine laying TF to a target and all lay their mines
will this crest 1 large MF, or 3 MF?

If it creates multiple MF will detection or detonation in one
MF detects the others.

Thanks in advance

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RE: How many mine fields - 5/29/2018 7:28:05 PM   
Anachro


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I could be wrong, but I believe a MF in one hex, no matter who it is created by, is treated as one large MF.

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RE: How many mine fields - 5/29/2018 7:34:01 PM   
Lokasenna


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It is 3 minefields if you use 3 TFs.

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RE: How many mine fields - 5/29/2018 8:04:41 PM   
HansBolter


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Loka is correct.

No one here knows the answer to the second question.

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RE: How many mine fields - 5/29/2018 8:35:26 PM   
Lawless1


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Thanks

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RE: How many mine fields - 5/29/2018 9:25:11 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Loka is correct.

No one here knows the answer to the second question.

Pretty sure detonation in one field does not affect detection of the others. Where multiple fields have been laid you see ships hitting them turn over turn, but not so much for one large minefield. However, if the enemy brings minesweepers there is a very good chance that in sweeping for one known field it will sweep some mines from the other fields and thus detect them.

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RE: How many mine fields - 5/30/2018 2:47:36 PM   
Lokasenna


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The downside to doing so (laying multiple fields via multiple TFs vs. just 1 large TF laying 1 field) is that your ACM's, if you have any at the port, will use more fuel maintaining more mine fields.

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RE: How many mine fields - 5/30/2018 2:50:37 PM   
Skyros


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Having multiple, discrete minefields is better than having a single huge minefield. The greatest threat comes from entering an undetected minefield. Known minefields lost most of their sting irrespective of number of mines.

Alfred

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3544356

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RE: How many mine fields - 5/30/2018 3:24:45 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

The downside to doing so (laying multiple fields via multiple TFs vs. just 1 large TF laying 1 field) is that your ACM's, if you have any at the port, will use more fuel maintaining more mine fields.

Wow - there's an esoteric detail I never would have parsed out myself! Amazing game and amazing players scrutinizing every detail!

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RE: How many mine fields - 5/30/2018 5:32:17 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

The downside to doing so (laying multiple fields via multiple TFs vs. just 1 large TF laying 1 field) is that your ACM's, if you have any at the port, will use more fuel maintaining more mine fields.

Wow - there's an esoteric detail I never would have parsed out myself! Amazing game and amazing players scrutinizing every detail!


It burns the fuel per minefield. If you have multiple minefields, more fuel.

This came up a few years back when MichaelM adjusted/fixed an issue with ACMs burning just a ton of fuel in port.

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RE: How many mine fields - 5/31/2018 5:26:20 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

The downside to doing so (laying multiple fields via multiple TFs vs. just 1 large TF laying 1 field) is that your ACM's, if you have any at the port, will use more fuel maintaining more mine fields.


This was a problem back in the day when the fuel burned came from the port. You could burn up lots of fuel that way. Far more than a tender could ever burn. Now that the fuel comes directly from the tender its not that big a deal. I typically have two or more minefields at each location where I lay the mines. I assume those at the start of the game are one big field.

I simply added a housekeeping function of checking my tenders each time I check for pilots in my training groups. Twice a month. I've found that even if I miss a tender it'll still have plenty of fuel until my next check. The fuel usage for this is really quite small, but I get that even that is too much for some players. For me I'd rather surprise my opponent and have some mines damaging/sinking ships than the nothing that tends to happen with known minefields. I also understand that the different minefields may be detected in turn, but whatever...

Of course I have a rather 'unconventional' style of play, in so far as I go against the 'normal' advice given in the forum. Then again I was never much of a conformist. Once more the above is JMHO. YMMV.


_____________________________

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RE: How many mine fields - 5/31/2018 6:00:19 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

The downside to doing so (laying multiple fields via multiple TFs vs. just 1 large TF laying 1 field) is that your ACM's, if you have any at the port, will use more fuel maintaining more mine fields.


This was a problem back in the day when the fuel burned came from the port. You could burn up lots of fuel that way. Far more than a tender could ever burn. Now that the fuel comes directly from the tender its not that big a deal. I typically have two or more minefields at each location where I lay the mines. I assume those at the start of the game are one big field.

I simply added a housekeeping function of checking my tenders each time I check for pilots in my training groups. Twice a month. I've found that even if I miss a tender it'll still have plenty of fuel until my next check. The fuel usage for this is really quite small, but I get that even that is too much for some players. For me I'd rather surprise my opponent and have some mines damaging/sinking ships than the nothing that tends to happen with known minefields. I also understand that the different minefields may be detected in turn, but whatever...

Of course I have a rather 'unconventional' style of play, in so far as I go against the 'normal' advice given in the forum. Then again I was never much of a conformist. Once more the above is JMHO. YMMV.



The bug was that it was burning 40 fuel, not 40 endurance (which could be a fraction of a point of fuel...).

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RE: How many mine fields - 5/31/2018 6:03:30 PM   
Lawless1


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Once again, the knowledge, wisdom and the willingness to share shine through. My Thanks to all.

Am five turns in on my modified version of DaBabeA light. Am going to try something different with my
mines. Setting up MF to the hex leading to Saigon. Have ply tried offensive MF once before with
poor results. Lost of one sub.

The information about mine tenders is interesting.

Once again my thanks to all for you help

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RE: How many mine fields - 5/31/2018 6:15:30 PM   
HansBolter


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Rather than combining the ACM fuel check with another task, I try to remember to make a sweep of all minefield containing ports with ACMs present at about the same frequency as rustysi.

Sometimes I forget, but can't recall ever having an ACM run out of fuel completely.

It will happen if you don't monitor them though.

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RE: How many mine fields - 5/31/2018 6:26:38 PM   
adarbrauner

 

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Useful

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RE: How many mine fields - 5/31/2018 7:28:03 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

The bug was that it was burning 40 fuel, not 40 endurance (which could be a fraction of a point of fuel...).


Correct, but I looked at it as more of an oversight than a 'bug'. Its as if no one checked or noticed. It wasn't changed that long ago. TBH I didn't notice it until in one game I couldn't understand why I couldn't keep Kwajalein supplied with fuel. Just about the time I felt I knew why, with the help of some mention in a couple of other threads, MichaelM had the problem solved. Gee I miss him.

Hey, maybe its like 'Beetlejuice', if we say his name enough maybe he'll reappear.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

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RE: How many mine fields - 5/31/2018 8:29:52 PM   
HansBolter


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Not tracking why we want Orion's right armpit to appear......


Ladies and Gents I present the real Betelgeuse (yes its pronounced the same as the movie character):








and yes, I'm the resident astronomer.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 5/31/2018 8:30:31 PM >


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RE: How many mine fields - 6/1/2018 1:25:53 AM   
Lokasenna


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I would like it if it went supernova in my lifetime.

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RE: How many mine fields - 6/1/2018 6:20:42 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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Pardon my sceptisism on all this but why does the game only tell the number of mines in a base and not the number of minefields etc. I'll need some convincing (proof) that it's not one big minefield.

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RE: How many mine fields - 6/1/2018 6:41:11 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen

Pardon my sceptisism on all this but why does the game only tell the number of mines in a base and not the number of minefields etc. I'll need some convincing (proof) that it's not one big minefield.

Alfred addressed this about six or eight months ago, saying the game keeps track of minefields by the date they were laid and the number of mines so it can calculate decay. I will try to find the thread reference.

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RE: How many mine fields - 6/1/2018 10:02:41 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen

Pardon my sceptisism on all this but why does the game only tell the number of mines in a base and not the number of minefields etc. I'll need some convincing (proof) that it's not one big minefield.

Alfred addressed this about six or eight months ago, saying the game keeps track of minefields by the date they were laid and the number of mines so it can calculate decay. I will try to find the thread reference.


Thanks

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RE: How many mine fields - 6/1/2018 2:27:03 PM   
Skyros


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My post above partially addresses this where Alfred mentions multiple fields.

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RE: How many mine fields - 6/1/2018 4:10:37 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen

Pardon my sceptisism on all this but why does the game only tell the number of mines in a base and not the number of minefields etc. I'll need some convincing (proof) that it's not one big minefield.

Alfred addressed this about six or eight months ago, saying the game keeps track of minefields by the date they were laid and the number of mines so it can calculate decay. I will try to find the thread reference.


It's been talking about for years. If somebody wants to dig up the post where michaelm fixed the ACM fuel usage, I think there's a thread about that which probably has all of the details.

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RE: How many mine fields - 6/1/2018 6:31:56 PM   
Skyros


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This is from the beta readme.

7/06/2014: 1123x8
Fixed Potential to only service 150 mines if more than one ACM present
Modified ACM to use the ship’s endurance/fuel rather than port fuel

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RE: How many mine fields - 6/2/2018 6:16:02 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyros

This is from the beta readme.

7/06/2014: 1123x8
Fixed Potential to only service 150 mines if more than one ACM present
Modified ACM to use the ship’s endurance/fuel rather than port fuel



That I know about but no mention of multiple minefields.

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RE: How many mine fields - 6/2/2018 8:14:36 AM   
Kull


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen

That I know about but no mention of multiple minefields.


As they say, "RTM", specifically page 134. Multiple minefields in the same hex were part of the original AE design.


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RE: How many mine fields - 6/2/2018 1:07:25 PM   
geofflambert


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With due respect to Alfred, my view is that minefields are primarily useful to deter submarine incursions. As a deterrent to amphibious landings they seem to me to be largely irrelevant, except in a few particular locations like Corregidor where they are backed up by naval artillery. In addition, they don't seem likely to have a noticeable effect unless the field counts hundreds of mines. ACM fuel usage is pusilanimous and only a concern in locations where you probably can't afford to have a minefield anyway. Inventory of mines is a severely restricting factor so they should be deployed carefully. I've never used stacked minefields, but my observation is that until an enemy ship gets a hole blown in its hull the effectiveness of the field probably doesn't erode. The two things I look for in effectiveness of minefields are 1) numbers, big numbers. and 2) that minefield icon which the enemy will see but have no idea how many there are.

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RE: How many mine fields - 6/2/2018 2:28:46 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I would like it if it went supernova in my lifetime.


How would you know? Betelgeuse is 642.5 light years distant. Forgive me if I suggest that you will not likely live to be 700 years of age to see such a sight.

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RE: How many mine fields - 6/2/2018 2:33:42 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

With due respect to Alfred, my view is that minefields are primarily useful to deter submarine incursions. As a deterrent to amphibious landings they seem to me to be largely irrelevant, except in a few particular locations like Corregidor where they are backed up by naval artillery.


With all due respect, I disagree with your opinion regarding the usefulness of minefields. Freshly (undetected) laid minefields, even in shallow-non-base hexes can be significantly disruptive. Even a small handful of sub-laid mines can damage or delay an incoming amphibious TF or damage incoming bombardment TFs (particularly the destroyer escorts). Some of the larger CM or DM-laid minefields can be very tactically relevant.

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RE: How many mine fields - 6/2/2018 4:15:13 PM   
geofflambert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

With due respect to Alfred, my view is that minefields are primarily useful to deter submarine incursions. As a deterrent to amphibious landings they seem to me to be largely irrelevant, except in a few particular locations like Corregidor where they are backed up by naval artillery.


With all due respect, I disagree with your opinion regarding the usefulness of minefields. Freshly (undetected) laid minefields, even in shallow-non-base hexes can be significantly disruptive. Even a small handful of sub-laid mines can damage or delay an incoming amphibious TF or damage incoming bombardment TFs (particularly the destroyer escorts). Some of the larger CM or DM-laid minefields can be very tactically relevant.


Yes, it seems the larger bombarding ships don't come in close enough to encounter minefields.

(in reply to Chickenboy)
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